Search And Destroy: Belle And Sebastian

1. Sleep the Clock Around 2. String Bean Jean 3. Put the Book Back on the Shelf 4. Expectations 5. Slow Graffiti

worst record, Fold Your Arms...(duh), worst track, 'Before the Sun' by a long margin (why God, why?!)

century of elvis & we rule the school still retain a semblance of the waifish charm that made them appear fleetingly special all those years ago. had they split up after if you're feeling sinister things might have been different.

B & S register at about the same level as Korn on my Loath-o-meter.

DESTROY: 'Beyond The Sunrise', 'The Chalet Lines', 'Chickfactor', 'Legal Man', 'The Gate', 'Dirty Dream Number Two' (sorry, sounds like trying-to-hard pastiche to me), and, probably, 'Family Tree' even though I have a soft spot for its sheer idiocy.

Dr C's comments leave me in the dark, as do most slag-offs of the band. Sexless? What does this mean? Whatever. I presume you can have sex and still be sexless then. Apologetic? Is this intrinsically bad? And anyway, thinking about it Stuart Murdoch is probably one of the most bloody-minded figures in music today.

Maybe you just can't stand his mimsy voice. Which is fair enough.

DESTROY: The ones about how independent and cool it is to be B & S or a member thereof. "Seymour Stein", "Chickfactor", "Family Tree" etc. etc. "Beyond The Sunrise" is a natural D-Side but as Hazlewood knockoffs go it's not an awful one.

Destroy: "Legal Man" is too easy an answer, as is "Nice Day for A Sulk" and, I guess, there's no really objectionable music to be had, just forgettable music, which is okay by me.

damnation: "Family Tree", "Seymour Stein", "Chickfactor", "Legal Man", "Nice Day For A Sulk", "Beyond The Sunrise".

agreed 100% with Nick on which are the worthwhile tracks from the last album.

DESTROY: everything that's come afterward. the inner circles of hell belong to those who own anything by looper.

The songwriting and lyrics make it hard to believe this was a debut record. My favorite songs are "i could be dreaming" and "electronic renaissance". yes, they are.

destroy: the movie clippings on the soundtrack album they did and 'a century of elvis'

belle and sebastian are easily one of my favorite groups ever... their first two albums in particular always get a lot of play time...

great live show, also... although the atmosphere was strangely affected as i saw them on 9/11/2001...

But I do take some strange pleasure in "Legal Man" and I like "La Pastie de la Bourgeoisie"

?!? At least you didn't say it was "Jonathan David," but still...

i thought it was a great show but it took me a while to remember that... a couple months actually.

And I'm ready to say that recent B & S (Dear Catastrophe Waitress and the Books and Cuckoo EPs) are the best things they've done yet.

B&S are damned by the (not 100% inaccurate) received opinion that all their fans are cardigan/hairslide/pop-socks/tortoise-shell specs/etc - it seems the band quietly allowed this perception to flourish, since they realised pretty early on that becoming the figureheads of a subculture - however derided that subculture may be by "mainstream" society - can only be good for sales and reach.

But the band themselves? They may *look* twee in a Bunty 70s teen fashion kinda way, but they seldom *sound* twee. As stated above, they're way more Northern Soul than Sarah.

This might actually be the problem.

Hmmm, I guess I just outed myself . . . I hope we can still be friends, Ned. : )

DESTROY: all their boring slow songs, "Lord Anthony", "Asleep on a Sunbeam", "Lazy Line Painter Jane", "You Made Me Forget My Dreams", every single one of their album titles but especially Fold Your Hands Child, You Walk Like a Peasant

In short, I would love to hear some of their songs tackled by voices that don't inspire playground-bully fantasies.

And now, of course, an obligatory dig at the fans: people who like B&S strike me as a more self-conscious subset of people who like RENT.

i gotta say they were never the same after isobel left. (this may just be a coincidence)

I don't get all this anti-twee stuff. If I think about it, I think that the twee connection is something I like about B&S, on the whole.

But these things are contingent, and personal.

Am I alone in thinking that Dear Catastrophe Waitress just towers over every other album they've yet made?

(xpost)

I like Family Tree. I can't remember now if I liked it back then or not, of if I knew it was written by Stuart, not Isobel (have I dreamed that?). Beyond the Sunrise is not good.

Returning to this CD: I re-emphasise how bad 'cornflakes' is. Poster Alba will remember a time when we would wonder if, say, 'beyond the sunrise' or 'family tree' was the worst B&S song.

Those were the days, when "beyond the sunrise" could be considered the low point.
They do a live summer-of-love version that moves that song way up in the rankings.

Heck, you're right - the sound, especially the Harrison / McGuinn guitar attack on this, is transformative. Incredible way to lift that song while completely maintaining its integrity.

Alba, I like 'family tree', always have done. In April 2000 I believe lots of us (not least you) were exercised by such questions of authorship and what they meant for Campbell or Murdoch's view of her schtick.

I maintain that while both these songs may have disappointed some in 2000, 'cornflakes' is something else.

bewildered that anyone could think family tree isn't a highlight of fyhp...

or is no one actually suggesting that? apologies

Did Murdoch transcend his frequently enough to warrant a different critical reception?

His what?

devvine, my sense would be that most people now who like B&S would look favourably on most of that LP. I don't think 'family tree' is exactly among the top 3 songs on the LP, but it's still more likeable than much of the last 30 years' output.

A friend once told me that Family Tree reminded him of the meow mix commercial and I have been unable to take it seriously ever since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTunhRVyREU

I'm someone who thought "Family Tree" was probably the worst B&S song at the time, and I still don't like it. I was shocked to see that it won the FYHCYWLAP poll!

This is the commercial it reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_PEz40gTDc

That live version of "Beyond the Sunrise" is cool. Never really had a problem with the album version though.

Agree with the posts upthread that “Cornflakes” is not good. I’ve not really gone back to ‘How to Solve…’. There were tracks I liked on it, I remember that.

I've been thinking about 'family tree', without actually playing it, and I think: this is a very well constructed song.

The vocal could have been better but then again maybe it needed this inept vocal. Unsure.

there are at least three tracks worse than "Beyond The Sunrise" and "Family Tree" on FYHCYWLAP

I mean it has "The Wrong Girl" which has to be one of my least favourite songs by anyone.

It's probably one of Jackson's best songs!

Looking at the tracklist on that poll thread, I think a) can't believe 'family tree' won, b) overall standard of that LP is high.

Are any of Jackson's songs actually....good?

Isn’t “The Wrong Girl” a Stevie song? I don’t mind that one. “Perfect Couples” isn’t bad, either. Still, I see B&S as Murdoch’s band, and its decline runs parallel with Murdoch’s retreat from Glasgow’s hipster community into staid domestic stability.

Are any of Jackson's songs actually....good?

― bain4z, Wednesday, July 19, 2023 3:13 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

to name 3 and 1/2:

to be myself completely, seymour stein, roy walker, half of step into my office baby

Legal Man and Jonathan David are quite guid.

Agree with devvine, and re 'Jonathan David'.

Also 'chick factor' quite possibly Jackson's best song of all.

I confirm my view that the best of HUMAN PROBLEMS is

Best Friends
We Were Beautiful
Too Many Tears
A Plague On Other Boys
I'll Be Your Pilot

I'm fond of 'The Wrong Girl' without loving it. I think the arrangements are the best thing about it - something true of what is, overall, a pretty ordinary album.

Love:
Too Much Love
The Model
Women's Realm

Like:
The Wrong Girl
I Fought in A War
Don't Leave the Light On
The Chalet Lines

Eh:
The rest

As for Stevie songs, I'd put 'Seymour Stein' in the top tier and also like 'Chickfactor' and 'Jonathan David'.

these are all top 30 b&s:

Woman's Realm
Family Tree
There's Too Much Love
I Fought In A War
The Model
Don't Leave The Light On, Baby

I find the out of tune intro to The Wrong Girl just makes me immediately skip.

Only top 30 B&S track on the LP for me is Woman's Realm, and even that's not top 20.

Don't like Women's Realm much - bit of a plodding indie-disco retread of past glories

Top tier:
I Fought in a War
The Model
Waiting for the Moon to Rise
Don't Leave the Light on Baby
There's Too Much Love

Lovely
Family Tree

OK
The Wrong Girl
Nice Day for a Sulk
Women's Realm

No thanks
Beyond the Sunrise
The Chalet Lines

Agree with Alba! Good calls, Alba.

But this is the 4th B&S LP, from 23 years ago - basically it's very good.

Finding the gold on HUMAN PROBLEMS - that's harder.

A top 10 B&S since, what ... 2010? That would be a tougher task. There is a fair amount of good material but it's scattered around and lots of us haven't even heard every song.

Human Problems is probably their weakest release so far, it's true. But Play For Today and I Didn't See It Coming are both top tier tracks for me, and both are post 2010 (well IDSIC is 2020 but that counts surely?)

Unsure that HUMAN PROBLEMS is worse than A BIT OF PREVIOUS, fwiw.

Agree that 'I didn't see it coming' is #1 in this era.

Pinefox Top 10 B&S since 2010:

I didn't see it coming
write about love
read the blessed pages
nobody's empire
the cat with the cream
we were beautiful
best friends
do it for your country
unnecessary drama
working boy in new york city

no Play For Today? just love how that builds and builds to something incredible at the end

No, not very keen on it. But I feel that I have never really managed to get the measure of the second half of that LP. And I have played it a lot!

(fwiw I think I prefer the Cure song of that name.)

that's also one of my favourite cure songs

also a fan of the tv series

cat with the cream really is wonderful

Yes great TV series for sure! :D

devvvine: 'cat with the cream' is a really unusual song, quite mysterious, quite slow burning, a complex construction, and even in its lyric its meanings seem ambiguous. But I think it may be the most ambitious, accomplished and stimulating work on that LP.

Still, I see B&S as Murdoch’s band, and its decline runs parallel with Murdoch’s retreat from Glasgow’s hipster community into staid domestic stability.

xp indeed, a very promising road absolutely not taken from what i've heard from the last few records

Enochroot's top 10 B&S songs since 2010:

A Bit of Previous
Juliet Naked
Working Boy in New York City
Unnecessary Drama
I Want The World To Stop
Play For Today
Do It For Your Country
Nobody's Empire
Every Day's A Lesson in Humility
I'll Be Your Pilot

I tried to come up with a top 10 since 2010, but I could only manage 7 tracks (which gives a good idea of when I lost interest, though I still torrent each new release).

Born to Act
Little Lou, Ugly Jack, Prophet John
Sunday’s Pretty Icons
I Want the World to Stop
The Ghost of Rockschool
Enter Sylvia Plath
Play for Today

"Come On Sister" (ctrl-f: 0 results) is not only one of their best post-2010 but I'd slot it comfortably in their all-time top 10.

I don't even know some of those.

And I don't think I knew there was a song called 'a bit of previous' !

The quality of their releases also correlates with who they chose to put on the cover of the album/EP: friends >>> models >>> fans

It correlates with their cover art in general. In 2014 I read one of those DIY articles "How to hang vinyl records on your wall" and I hung up all of B&S’s albums and most of their EPs. Visitors to my home loved it. But then Girls in Peacetime came out and there was no way I was going to display that shit.

I thought the last two LP covers were a slight step up in quality.

some classic era singles and EPs have crap covers - Dog On Wheels, I'm Waking Up To Us, Jonathan David

Not sure I agree with the view that B&S cover art has declined.

Is WRITE ABOUT LOVE much worse than SINISTER? Both are nice.

Unlike poster Camaraderie, I find that DOG ON WHEELS has a magnificent cover - perhaps the most charming in their career.

But then TBWTAS itself has a cover that has always put me off, an ugly picture that says little about the contents and is only redeemed by the deep green cover.

And I'm not sure that the FOLD YOUR HANDS cover is better than THE LIFE PURSUIT.

Maybe more recent 'display the fans' is poor but then LATE DEVELOPERS (which I've never seen in reality) feels like an ep cover from 20+ years earlier.

Overall I think the covers have maintained quite a lot of continuity while also all looking different from each other (due to the colours).

A point that in Sinister List days would have been massively discussed and now maybe never has been:

'If They're Shooting At You' deliberately reuses the melody and chords of the bridge of 'Poor Boy' for its bridge or maybe pre-chorus.

It's a rare case of a songwriter flagrantly repeating the same musical material and presumably feeling it was OK do so. Maybe because few remember 'Poor Boy' anyway.