Liz Phair and best of the year lists

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Irritating habit apparent in best of year lists:
Critics putting Liz Phair high up in their top ten (often in number one position), for what purely seems as a reaction to the disgust shown by other people for Phair going pop. I'm sorry, I just can't see any reasons why this album should make anywhere near a top ten list (low fifties maybe), as all it is is mediocre pop with some interesting bits created by Phair being older than the average pop star.

It should be pointed out to the people who believe 2003 is the year that pop broke in the indie world, that this is completely disproved by the entire Phair attack.

― Jedmond, Friday, 19 December 2003 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i haven't seen Phair in any list

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Once again, Keith Harris to thread (unless it distracts him from Furtado-mockery duties)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi, don't know if you mean me, but I've listened to the Phair record more often than any other disc this year. And when I'm deciding what I'll listen to on the way to work, I don't generally think "Hmm, what would really piss them off at Pitchfork?" My "reaction to the disgust shown by other people" may make the fact that I enjoy the record a little more enjoyable, but it doesn't make me enjoy it in the first place.

x-post

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I've seen the Liz Phair album on works-in-progress lists from Keith Harris and Sasha Frere-Jones, and can see it finishing well from Christgau. Other than that, I haven't seen it showing up on many of the Best Of lists I've seen so far. Also, I'm pretty sure the critics who do like the record are sincere in their enjoyment of it. They might use some populist polemics to defend the album, but that's not the root of the praise.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

nate is like the bat signal.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Has S F-J, god/emperor of ilm, revised his list? (Which had Liz Phair at #1 last I checked).(a few days ago).

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

The real question is, what does Chuck Eddy's 12 year old son think of it?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

When this album came out, everybody hated it. Now, everybody hates everybody who hated it. I'm not sure I've seen anyone actually claim to like the album itself, except in the two-negatives-make-a-positive sense of hating the hating of it.

(I listened to it all the way through twice, because I like Liz Phair, and wanted to give it a chance. But Goddamnit, it sucks.)

― Salmon Pink (Salmon Pink), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

reading is fundamental.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Um...wha?

Being the sort of instapundit that would happily put _Liz Phair_ up at the top of his personal Best O' 2K3, I'm gonna have to disagree w/ your assessment of the album (just as you would mine) (and then right back atcha) (and we could go at it all day). It's equally irritating to read critics & see layfolk bitch about the album because it's "not indie enough" or she's "betrayed her gift", even if there's some constructive critisism to be had behind all the boo-hoo rhetoric.

Also, if this is the year that pop broke the indie world (and, as it's probably been said here & other places, it's more like people FINALLY NOTICED that a fair # of folks are happily bringing both the New Pornographers & Britney to the registers of their local chainstore) (cf. the Spin / "hard drive" thing), it's fair to say that using a former indie princess' supposed fall from grace as a way to prove the pop/indie thing wrongo ain't the way to go.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I really need to learn how to type faster.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if the downloadable ep that came with it is fair game, though. That actually would place fairly high on my list. I'll be curious to see if it'll turn up on any top-whatevers.

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Off-topic, but is this also considered good material?:

Fuck and run
I wanna boyfriend
Fuck and run

(repeat ad nauseam)

This is the only Liz Phair song ever to grace my ears.

― adam michel (adam michel), Friday, 19 December 2003 03:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Looks like you missed a couple of verses there, dood.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Here are some other albums that have have been attacked for glitzy production and other alleged signs of impurity and avarice.

Charlie Parker's Verve sides with strings
Billie Holiday, Lady in Satin
Dinah Washington, What a Difference a Day Makes
Rod Stewart, "Do You Think I'm Sexy"
The Clash, Give 'Em Enough Rope
Replacements, Don't Tell a Soul

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Oof, Dylan, you're not helping much!

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I like the jazz stuff on that list. And "Julie's Been Working For the Drug Squad"

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a defender of many of the above-mentioned records

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a great fan of Dylan's "Empire Burlesque," which took some flak for its pop-saavy production.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I was gonna be the big sellout... but it really didn't sell that much, did it?

― Unum, Friday, 19 December 2003 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, didn't it take some flak because its pop wasn't that savvy? I like some of it fine, though. And Don't Tell a Soul and Give Them Enough Rope have a lot of moments. LP's a better record than all of them though.

How about Born in the USA?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I was just about to wonder aloud if the Dwarves took heat when they spruced up their sound and moved to a major, when suddenly the number of parallels between the Dwarves and Liz just smacked me in the face: semi naked cover models, obsession with taking a younger lover, mid-career sonic upgrades, unreliable live shows, "Let's Fuck" vs. "Fuck and Run." I think there's something there...(has anyone ever seen hewhocannotbenamed and Liz in the same room?)

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 04:18 (twenty-one years ago)

And don't forget "Sally Can't Dance." Which also sucked, but in a fun way.

― Salmon Pink (Salmon Pink), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't remember that stuff about "Empire Burlesque" being not-pop-savvy enough, but maybe so. Its attempt to sound current is a bit off. I remember "Tight Connection to My Heart," which I love, sounding pretty expensive on the radio, and also remember some grumbling about it. Of course, he had been attacked for alleged production sins before that.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know if "Born in the U.S.A." does count. I mean "The River" isn't as huge sounding, but it's close, and all the songs are short or relatively short.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, really, sorry dylan but that list blows. Parker's Verve sides with strings still make me retch, and, well, I've never cared much for the Clash or the Replacements in general.

Tunnel of Love was more glitzy than BitUSA, wasn't it?

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

R.E.M.'s "Lifes [sic] Rich Pageant" might qualify. Jumping from Joe Boyd to Don Gehman was kind of dramatic at the time. Not that Don Gehman was the Matrix of his time.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"Its attempt to sound current is a bit off." That's what I meant about EB's limited savvyness despite it being so big and 80s. I haven't listened to that in years though. Now I'm curious.

"Dancing in the Dark" pissed lots of folks off, esp as a remix, no? Born in the USA's pretty much a synthpop record, and if TOL did glitz around, that was well after the fact.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

And what about that latest Jewel album?

― may pang (maypang), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't imagine being driven to retch by Charlie Parker. They're my least favorite records by him, but it's still Charlie Parker. That Washington album is great. "Don't Tell a Soul" isn't especially good.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:35 (twenty-one years ago)

But the problem with "Don't Tell a Soul" is the songs, not the production. Which is, I guess, what a lot of people say about the Liz record.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

"Empire Burlesque" is his best collection of songs from the '80s, I'd say.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree, but that's not saying much.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

What about Elvis's RCA singles with the drummer and everything?!?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:40 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, songs the problem on "Don't Tell a Soul," though i really like "Asking Me Lies," which I guess was trying to make people dance.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:40 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing about Tunnel of Love wasn't just the production tho, it was the lack of the E Street Band. Like, it didn't rock, and stuff.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't imagine there were enough people aware of Elvis's Sun singles to object. Maybe some musicians.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"Nebraska" didn't rock or have the E Street Band and critics loved it.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:44 (twenty-one years ago)

or wait ... maybe i'm thinking of the two simultaneously released records. Hmmm... I dunno. I just remember loving Born and the USA despite the treacly synths, and being really unable to get with Tunnel. The latter just seemed to lack any kind of movement.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Since the list has moved on - mainly acts with strings attached - maybe I'm ignorant, but as far as I know the addition of strings to Charlie Parker's work was not to gain popularity, but to gain intellectual approval - it's as if the Neptunes start incorporating lame drill and bass flourishes to gain outdated IDM fan approval.

Regarding Liz Phair album, I do like it, it's just that I can detect nothing in the music that could stun somebody, usually, even if I don't like the record, I can see why somebody might put it in their top ten. So when 2 out of the 3 slate music club members put it in as their number one album, it strikes me as an obvious political act, as opposed to how good the music is. However prove me wrong, name the best songs, point out the best moments, say why these tracks are great and I'll download the songs (if I don't already have them) listen to them and do my best to be swayed.

Dammit - this list keeps moving on me

― Jedmond, Friday, 19 December 2003 04:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I do remember people bitching about Arthur Baker's remix of "Dancing in the Dark." As for the Boss's production evolution, the change in sound from "The Wild, the Innocent..." to "Born to Run" is more dramatic.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 04:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Charlie Parker and Norman Granz might have been looking for approval from longhairs when they hired strings, but they were also looking to sweeten the sound, and make it more palatable to pop fans. The parallel between the Bird with orchestra sides and "Liz Phair" and some of the other albums mentioned is that critics and purists slammed them for sounding like sellouts. The playing on some of those Parker with strings sides is great, by the way.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 05:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I did say maybe I was ignorant on the matter.

Sidenote - apparently when 'Bird' directed Clint Eastwood was released the soundtrack featured the Parker + strings songs, but with new string arrangments that suit Parker, and are a lot less schlocky.

― Jedmond, Friday, 19 December 2003 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf500/f574/f57436uz4zk.jpg

VH IS USIN' SYNTHS, DUDE! ROCK IS DEAD

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 19 December 2003 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Born in the USA WON the Pazz & Jop, so unless you know shit I don't (highly likely) any critical carping was extremely limited. (and haha Keith I think the only one who bitched about RCA Elvis w/drums was Charlie Gillett, no?) (yes I know you were kidding)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 19 December 2003 06:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I've only heard one song, "why can't I breathe," and I can understand
why some might not like it - but it sounds like a classic emotional rock single to
me.

And shit... _Don't Tell A Soul_ was considered too polished?

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 19 December 2003 06:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Matos: I think we're talking as much about the carping of hardcore fans as that of critics.

Squirrel: Maybe it's a Minneapolis thing, but "Don't Tell a Soul" was greeted coldly by some folks around here on the grounds that it was too slick. I remember one community-radio deejay saying he thought it sounded like Bryan Adams.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I kind of think Liz Phair has never made a best-album-of-the-year, even though Guyville (and to a lesser extent Whip Smart) (and to a lesser lesser extent whitechocolatelatte) logged hundreds of hours in my CD player. But whatever. I borrowed the new one and listened to it for a week. It was nice. I neither remember nor miss it. I'm mostly glad she got to play for the tree lighting at Rockefeller Center. If that's what "selling out" gets you, why the fuck not?

― spittle (spittle), Friday, 19 December 2003 08:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Spittle summed it up for me, unlike her previous albums (even whitechoclate egg's Polyester Bride did something for me) this album is a 'meh' album - arguing that it's an album of the year is like argueing Johnny Marr's Boomslang or Ocean Colour Scene's Mechanical Wonder - I just fail to see beyong being nice albums, how they could inspire anybody to either hate or love the albums.

Of course if Liz Phair rates highly in Pitchfork's best albums of the year tomorrow I will take it all back.

― Jedmond, Friday, 19 December 2003 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

If Liz Phair rates highly in Pitchfork's best albums of the year I will punch a puppy for Jesus. Having just recently written then about their at this point totally irrational continued hatred of that album they'd have to have tied Ryan and Brett to a chair to get that past 'em. And regardless, I sincerely believe no one there likes it. I just think they're cocks, so.

The album itself: very good, not best of the year. I like it better than any other Liz album *ducks*

― Mike Barthel, Friday, 19 December 2003 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Liz Phair will probably make the bottom half of my top ten. It may well be my fave of hers too. It's not perfect but it's as good a singer-songwriter record I heard this year.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 19 December 2003 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if any people from Chicago are going to rank it, because it's just so .... north shore. Good riddance.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 19 December 2003 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

If Liz was Judas Priest this would be her Turbo.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

It's true, Kerry. No one from the suburbs has ever made a good record.

Here's my defense of LP:
http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1186/article11465.asp

Sasha's got a response on his blog.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

No one from the suburbs has ever made a good record.

I dunno, I heard a couple songs from the last Chan Poling record and they seemed pretty good.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Way to represent, Matt!

Say Shhh

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

by the way, it really freaks me out (in a good way) to see Atmosphere all over MTV 2....I've seen the video three times this week!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Bored by S F-J's defense of Liz Phair, but fascinated by the previous entry about his doings with the dustDevils!!

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

-- dylan (dhick...), December 19th, 2003.

before I got into the 'Mats, I was *positive* that "I'll Be You" was by Bryan Adams.

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

although I think it was the line about being from Canada as much as the voice/production that led me to that assumption.

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

That's cool on Atmosphere. Remind me which track is the single.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

don't tell a soul *did* sound like bryan adams. but that wasn't the problem. the problem was that it sounded like *bad* bryan adams. if the placemats had come up with an album full of "summer of 69"s and "run to you", that would've been great. "darling one" was a pretty great song, though.

and, besides, that's not the album where they slicked out, since they had already slicked out on pleased to meet me.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Trying to Find A Balance is the video, it's like a real video too not an indie cheapie...it's really cool/freaky to see!

(also Talent Show is a good song from Don't Tell A Soul, also We'll Inherit the Earth)

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I like "Talent Show," though it feels like something of a rewrite.

Yes, "Please to Meet Me" is sorta slick--huge drum sound and everything--but it doesn't have quite the shimmer of "Don't Tell a Soul." Jim Dickenson was a pretty cool choice for a producer. At least in Minneapolis, I don't remember many folks jumping the Mats ship on the grounds that "Pleased to Meet Me" was too commercial, whereas I do remember a lot of grousing over the sound of "Don't Tell a Soul.'

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

The difference between Don't Tell a Soul and Liz Phair, if I remember correctly (and I haven't listened to the Replacements one since a week or so after it came out) is that DTAS is so stilted in its ambition. I honestly don't hear any Bryan Adams in that record--at best, maybe some muddled attempts towards that, but the production and the polish plainly was not there (oddly, the scrappy Let it Be has more of a bright radio sound, though that's in retrospect, post-Nirvana, etc.). Liz Phair, on the other hand, knew what to do: hire the Matrix (or whoever), listen to the radio, and capture that sound (judging from her interviews, it appears to have been as calculated as all that!). And she gets it. There's nothing lame in the attempt at commercializing her sound, though if the songs don't work for you they don't work for you (they work for me, most of them).

― s woods, Friday, 19 December 2003 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Goddam it, do you Minneapolis people have to hijack every thread with your insane boosterism? You don't hear me going off about the Hooters and Schoolly D every time I post, do ya?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Keith, You don't understand Philly any more than Oliver Wang understands gansta!

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Or you understand spellcheck--haw, haw!

LaGuardia rocks!

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Sasha's response:

1. Yes, the Liz Phair record is my favorite record of the year. My list is based as closely as possible on the semi-empirical: how many times I listened to the thing. iTunes helped me track this, and my family and feeble memory filled in the blanks. Liz and Junior Senior got big support from the wife and kids, and that pushed the number of spins. It is only "a dopey and transparently political act" to list Liz Phair at number if you think politics are stupid, or somehow spoil aesthetics or experience or prose. If you do, you are a practitioner of Unchecked Penisism. Lists function as denotation only if you are tiny of mind and small of heart and committed to pretending your statements don't refract in other people's windows and grow in other people's gardens. It is crazy to pretend you are dealing with facts. Every list is ideological, even if you don't think you thought about it. Or if you do think you thought about it, creating a list based entirely on pique and fury and assertion of principles is DANDY, as is any admixture of beef and intuitition and fake science. THERE IS NO NUMBER ONE. That said, I try to track my own listening with numbers because I am interested in tracking down what my brain is trying to do, and the numbers always, ALWAYS surprise and help. This is why Bill James got hired by the Red Sox, and why Dan Smith's books are so great. One of many reasons.

I'm pro-Liz here. I wouldn't rate her album as highly as say, Sasha, but I do think it's a worthwhile record with some good songs on it (and one extremely great song, "Rock Me"), and I think that it is undeserving of the kind of trashing that it has received from certain critics and fans.

Oh, that song "Jeremy Engle" from that bonus internet EP she did is fantastic too, by the way.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait, I thought Oliver Wang was pretty clear on gangsta but fuzzy on gansta.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

So....whatever happened to Lil' Buddy? Did he go to prison?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Dylan only enjoys that Happy Apple record for political reasons.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, he does have his Governer of Fun reelection campaign to think about.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Jeremy Engel as a great song seconded. I'm somewhat surprised that most reviews of Liz Phair album fail to mention the quality of the ep at all. Glenn at www.furia.com has the best take I've seen this year (and I count the fact that *he* dislikes it as major evidence that the problem isn't the production). Part of me wonders if mentioning the ep (which is of good to great quality) would undermine the argument that the (generally low quality) album is worthy of praise.

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"Engle"

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Eh, I don't know. "Rock Me," "Little Digger," "Why Can't I," "Red Light Fever" and "HWC" are all much, much better than any of the non-"Jeremy Engle" songs on that EP.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Friday, 19 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Bouncer's Conversation quite a bit, Hurricane Cindy a bit, and the other two are somewhat sappy but decent for what they are. I think glenn reverses Bouncer and Hurricane as far as preference. His review is one of the few times that I find my taste agreeing with his.

― dlp9001, Friday, 19 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, my appreciation of the Happy Apple record is based on my longstanding advocacy of slightly chubby guys.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 19 December 2003 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't have time to read this whole thread, but I too think the new Liz Phair album is the most playable album she's ever made. (It won't come close to my top ten, though. I also think Stephen Malkmus made his most playable album this year, and that Outkast and White Stripes made their dullest albums ever, both of which I still sorta like.) And I prefer *Give Em Enough Rope* to any album the Clash made after *Give Em Enough Rope,* as well. As for *Don't Tell a Soul,* I think I remember writing in *Creem* at the time that the Replacements had gone and turned into INXS (couldn't say Bryan Adams, since I LIKED Bryan Adams!) As for other sellout albums, there's a whole chapter about 'em in my second book. Bob Dylan and Amy Grant and Yes and the Bee Gees and the Cult and Herbie Hancock and ???? figure heavily...

― chuck, Friday, 19 December 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I really don't find evidence to Jedmond's original post.

As I've posted previously, there is ample room to dislike the Liz Phair on any number of legitimate grounds. People like Gina Arnold, who tried to turn legitimate criticism of the album into some sort of referendum on women's issues, can kiss my ass.

I like Liz a lot, I don't fault her for yearning for Top 40, and I think she's sexy in all the right ways. I loved WCSE, and the mp3 demos Phair released for this album were pretty damn great, too. Phair's always wanted to be more popular, and Guyville addressed that fairly directly. Anyone who doesn't know that hasn't been paying attention for the past ten years.

― don weiner, Friday, 19 December 2003 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never really liked Liz, something about her songwriting that I could probably describe better if I knew more music theory....it's a way she has of writing chord changes that seem at once overly familiar and awkward.

Also, her voice just seems flat and weak, but not in an interesting way. I've heard her new stuff, which seems fine I guess, no better or worse than anything else she's done.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Matt OTM. I liked Exile on Guyville, but everything after that has left me cold. There was a ton of deliriously exciting music released this year; if the Liz Phair thing is really someone's #1 album of the year ... whew, there but for the grace of god go I.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 19 December 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, if you never thought she was anything special all the indie handwringing is even funnier.

― ermes marana, Friday, 19 December 2003 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Only slighty off topic: Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only guy in the world who prefers the Whip Smart album over the rest of Phair's work.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Friday, 19 December 2003 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

my wife likes Whitecholocatespaceegg alot so that's the one I've heard the most....it's got some okay stuff on it, I actually like it better than what i remember hearing of Guyville in college.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't say I prefered Whipsmart to everything else but I do think it's more or less as good as Guyville. wcse is in the #2 slot and LP #3. It took me a while to like wcse and it's taking longer to like LP.

― nickn (nickn), Saturday, 20 December 2003 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, all you Slate readers out there can link to everybody's responses to Gina Arnold's review now:

Gina Arnold on Liz Phair

― chuck, Wednesday, 31 December 2003 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Rock critic dudes must make horrible ex-boyfriends. If we're not complaining that an ex is wearing skimpy clothing while dating jocks, we're whimpering with admiration and screaming about how fucking brilliant she is and how stupid we've been. Either way we won't just leave her alone.

She's probably gonna be #9 on my list (right now, she, the White Stripes, Bubba Sparxx and Placebo are duking it out for those prized "5 points" spots at the bottom of a P&J list).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Haven't heard the album, likely never will. Was whitechocolatespaceegg not enough for you people? Liz Phair lost it *long* before 2003.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Liz Phair lost it *long* before 2003.

This statement implies she ever had *it.*

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

"Johnny, my love..."

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 20:22 (twenty-one years ago)

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