What's the most ridiculously complicated heavy-chops album ever?

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I'm talking 'flash' here, like super prog chops. The album that would take the longest for musicians of average ability to learn to play note-for-note (proportionate to album length). Stuff that even Berklee graduates would be tested by! 'Romantic Warrior'? 'Brain Salad Surgery'? 'Disco Volante'? 'Zappa in New York'?

― dave q, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Rachmaninov's 3^rd Piano Concerto, especially played at its originally intended speed.

― Kodanshi, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is "Disco Volante" such a difficult album, musical-proficiency-wise? I really would not know. I find it very difficult to measure the level of mastery required to play a song, especially pop songs. PLaying exactly like Johnny Marr has always seemed impossible to me, but of course we are not talking Zappa here...

― Simon, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Try Ruins, a japanese prog-hardcore drums/bass combo.

― brains, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

There's this guitarist named Shawn Lane that plays insanely fast--so fast that in fact people like Steve Vai, Vernon Reid, Buckethead, Paul Gilbert, Richie Kotzen, Eric Johnson, and others in the Metal Blade/Shrapnel arena bow down to him. "Power of Ten" is the album, I think, and it's insane--not so much hitting you over the head, but subtlely so. As far as shred guitar goes, I think he pretty much kills 'em all--and he's quite tasteful, surprisingly. Plus, he's some sort of musical wunderkind--virtuosic on piano too. Apparently he has a superfast nervous system.

Having said that, Eliot Fisk, George Van Eps, Danny Gatton, Chet Atkins, Miroslav Tadic, Phil deGruy, and a lot of others all have a great deal to offer that's not pure speed, that is very hard to replicate. Contrapunctual grace is pretty different than pure linear speed, ala John McLaughlin.

Do you mean the Art Tatum kind of virtuosity too? Or John Coltrane, Clifford Brown? or just guitarists?

― Mickey Black Eyes, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

How about any Don Caballero or math rock album out there? Their side project Storm and Stress would be a bitch to replicate.

― Todd Burns, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I would say anything by Japanese RIOesque Tipographica. Also, I think some of the Naked City records, just in terms of speed and transistion.

I agree on the Ruins, but truthfully, I'm not sure anyone but Ruins was meant to play that stuff.

― dleone, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The thing with Ruins, though, is that despite the obvious difficulty inherent in playing songs so convoluted and complex is that they make it seem quite simple. A group like Ron Anderson's PAK (who I saw open for Ruins once upon a time) is like Ruins, but more compositionally flamboyant (and, not surprisingly, a bit of a letdown). Trickiness for trickiness' sake. That's what I think of when I read Dave Q's question, and that's the sort of stuff I can't stands.

Not that my opinion was solicited, but I offer it in good faith nonetheless.

― David Raposa, Sunday, 23 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I submit that Berio's sequenzas might be significantly more challenging than Don Caballero, which I think I could probably learn given a score without too much trouble (other than the time changes, is anything else supposed to be difficult?). Maybe Paganinni if you're going old-school.

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

surely xenakis is the bwoy to follow here? some of those piano pieces (will look up name later)? but nunna the EuroComps essay true prog heaviosity surely? isn't dave q's point partly to do with collective complexity also? in a bpm styleee?

― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Gorguts - Obscura -- I don't even think they know what they're doing, but it's pretty incredible. Fucking Canadian stoners...

― Kris, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I tried to think of some good examples of this from this in straight prog-rock. I thought it would be simple -- prog is infamous for it's instrumental, overkill, right? But now that I reflect upon it, there's not really that much amazing chops in prog. Oh, most of it is workmanlike (though you'll occasionally find the 12-minute epic that sounds like an extended version of "Heart & Soul" -- oh, the wonders of internet radio), but not much is truly amazing. Tipographica has been mentioned. Then there's Thinking Plague and One Shot, but really, this is moving into RIO, which tends to be more skilled anyhow. Deux Ex Machina is more traditional, and they have some really smoking complex sections. And Locanda Delle Fate's "Forse..." album is pretty complicated. Not that it's flashy or anything, but it would take some skill to play all those interlocking parts without sounding like a mess. But that's not true flash, like you're asking for...

How about Fantomas's S/T album. It's hard to believe that those fellas could recreate that slice of plastic live. Or we could pull out the old standbys: The one-hundred-notes-per-second crowd, like Dream Theater and Buckethead and the rest. They're really quite simple -- except for those guitar solos. They'd take quite a bit of hard work for _me_ to learn, anyway, though Jon Petrucci of DT admits to not practicing regularly. They must suck live.

― Jack Redelfs, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

How about Fantomas's S/T album. It's hard to believe that those fellas could recreate that slice of plastic live. Or we could pull out the old standbys, the Berklee graduates themselves like Dream Theater and Buckethead and the rest. They're really quite simple -- except for those guitar solos. They'd take quite a bit of hard work for _me_ to learn, anyway, though Jon Petrucci of DT admits to not practicing regularly. They must suck live.

― Jack Redelfs, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Here's more names of very technical prog bands, note I have not heard them and do not take this as an endorsement in any way:

5uu's Volapuk Dr Nerve U Totem Boud Deun Carpe Diem Elipsis Miriodor Sieges Even Mercury Rising Atheist Nocturnus yeah, I know, this is getting weird isn't it I'll stop now

― Jack Redelfs, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Some super-heavy fusion rekord I've never heard would prob. win this, but for now, I'd nominate any later album by japanese all-grrrl prog trio ars nova They really are a bit much, even for me - their music sounds like the robot overlord of the whole world decided to record s.th. in the style of his favourite LP - "Tarkus", by ELP. It is unrelenting, and U R guaranteed to get a headache in 3 mins or less. Add to this the band's thang ov wearing dodgy dominatrix gear, and the resulty is s.th. which would strike PH34R into the heart ov any musick fan. I wish there were more bands like ars nova.

x0x0

― Norman Fay, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ars nova = japanese for rear of the ::[k-chunk]!!:: ok ok i'll be good

(jack makes good point above abt actuality of prog chops vs claims and assumptions)

― mark s, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two years pass...

Deserves another look.

― Mark (MarkR), Saturday, 6 December 2003 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

dammit, I just wrote a post where I did instrument-by-instrument breakdowns instead of full albums as such.

Oh well.

Ars Nova sucks.

Euhh.

For guitarfreaks, there's certainly something to the wildness of Di Meola, McLaughlin and De Lucia - Friday Night in San Francisco (Live)
Then again, I'm sure there's plenty of flamenco etc that'd make these guys blush.

Spiral Architect's A Sceptic's Universe for a more normal rock-band setup. Eventually maybe something like Doctor Nerve's Skin (or the album where all(or most of?) the songs were written by a computer program, hah)

Wow, writing this makes me realize how little the whole shred/tech thing impresses nowadays, as I keep thinking "but still, most people could learn to PLAY that stuff (though not necessarily write it) with some months of woodshed"

Fuckit.
Note-for-note replication of "Free Jazz" please.

― Øystein H-O (Øystein H-O), Saturday, 6 December 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

For bass: Victor Wooten's A Show Of Hands

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 6 December 2003 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

And on that tangent: Michael Manring's Thonk is pretty much ludicrous-bass defined

― Øystein H-O (Øystein H-O), Saturday, 6 December 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Some of John McLaughlin's runs on a scalloped neck acoustic on the first Shakti record are ridiculous, especially when he locks up on some of those lightning fast runs that Zakir Hussein plays on tabla. That kind of technique is freaky, especially since he still makes it musical.

― earlnash, Saturday, 6 December 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

5uu's - Crisis In Clay
Emperor - Prometheus
Dillinger Escape Plan - Calculating Infinity
Koenjihyakkei - II
Tipographica - God Says I Can't Dance
John Zorn/Naked City - Torture Garden

― dleone (dleone), Sunday, 7 December 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

The Avalanches - Since I Left You
Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Sunday, 7 December 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

For combination of tone, velocity, and godforsaken shred, how about King Crimson's The ConstruKction of Light?

― Dave Vinson (Gaughin), Sunday, 7 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Necrophagist, still.

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Sunday, 7 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

Orthrelm are a good wank. Until the recent one anyway, which is absolutely demented.

― davidcorp ltd (davidcorp), Monday, 26 September 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

Weasel's solo Flying Luttenbachers album: "Systems Emerge from Complete Disorder".

― shieldforyoureyes, Monday, 26 September 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

The climax/ending to "Joy" from that first Shakti record is the first thing I thought of when reading this thread. :) "The Daffodil and the Eagle" from Natural Elements is also pretty insane.
Another favorite candidate: McCoy Tyner's piano solo to "Ebony Queen".

― Joe (Joe), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 00:20 (twenty years ago)

Alan Holdsworth pwns this thread:

http://www.therealallanholdsworth.com

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 01:13 (twenty years ago)

Seconded

― blunt (blunt), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 01:19 (twenty years ago)

there should be a band called Penis Extension

― amon (eman), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 01:22 (twenty years ago)

Ha, I haven't heard the shit, but apparently this guy played guitar for Zappa and records versions of Steve Vai stuff on piano!

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 02:13 (twenty years ago)

Today's word is: "onanistic"!

― Fastnbulbous (Fastnbulbous), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

seven months pass...

I can't let this thread exist without adding these bands:
Spiral Architect - A skeptics universe
Planet X - its all pretty good
Zero Hour - towers of Avarice and some of their other shit too
Cynic - Focus is the name of the album, but download the demos... they are way more insane sounding and less annoying... if you get focus, the remastered version is more clear
Capharnaum - Fractured -The guitarist Jason Suecoff runs Audiohammer and produces that band Trivium. He is also in the insanely cool joke band Crotchduster... its just some bad ass metal with hardcore style vocals... excellent 7 string guitar playing.
Jason becker - for those of you discussing shawn lane, check out jason becker's Perpetual burn... there is even a track that is shared by this album and shawn lanes on which they both play... I believe Mable's Fatal Fable..... anyway... different shit at the beginning and end of the song on each album... but yeah... becker was the child prodigy type... more famous for his paralysis from ALS (Lou G's disease) now... real sad... one of my favorites... by the way... paul gilberts chops are more clean than either of them... he doesn't write such shreddy music as the other two but he is nuts with the low gain and insanely accurate picking... its godly..

Rusty cooley- insane shredder who is pretty wanky but still very technical and writes relatively thoughtful music considering what a shred fest it is... his claim to fame is 7 8 and 9 string guitars on which he does such monsterous things as sweep picking on large quantities of those strings at once.... if you like that rapid arpeggio shit then check his shit out.

Less insane music that rules too:
Shit like 311 and Incubus on those special early albums... all that modal riffy jamming... I think its bad ass, and it may not be dream theater, but dream theater never grooved like this, and these are clearly good musicians, just with less focus on technique, though both bands have a bassist that can seriously bust a move, and incubus' guitarist is pretty insane at time, better than 311's in my opinion... good drummers for both.

Joe pass = jazz solo god
miles davis = fucking genius
john coltrane = the most important jazzer ever to walk the earth

ana vidovic = insane, hott, gorgeous... had the pleasure of hearing her classical guitar playing live... after seeing christopher parkening and sharon isbin both live as well, can honestly say, though I noticed parkening was remarkably loud, as he was playing with a symphony unamplified, vidovics tone and the absolute ease and grace with which she performs her shit is fucking ridiculous... it sings... her tone is the most insane, midful tone I've ever heard... I want one of those Redgate guitars for myself... jeff young from megadeth had one for sale on ebay just like it not long ago for seven thousand... not bad... amazing... check her performances of traditional classical shit out... lots on her website.... yeah... and did I mention she is completely hott? croation guitar prodigy.. only 26 years old and she has played over a thousand shows internationally or something like that... how insane do you need?

so many good people out there now... it's incredible.....

― Brandon The Mediocre, Friday, 12 May 2006 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

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