Dance in America : why not?

Anyway: said station (94.5 in Boston) went hip-hop circa 1992-1993 and never looked back. I really think the biggest reason is that hip- hop absorbed a huge amount of the urban market for dance music.

And in the non-urban wide open spaces, this music simply wasn't going to fly, and maybe still isn't. Too associated with black gay culture, or for those who didn't know these associations, at least hopelessly tagged with the feminine label.

Besides I think the way most people get turned onto dance music is by going to a club or rave. So yeah, geography has a lot to do with it, too -- the urban centers where this stuff was coming from were too distant from each other and from the bulk of the country for it to spread as rapidly.

I think the current dance music "awakening" is just a blip on the radar, though......I don't really see how a bunch of pasty white men behind turntables is going to be able to compete with Britney/TRL/lowest common denominator hip hop/etc in the long term. I think it will remain at a place where people are *aware* of it, but it will never completely infiltrate the mainstream the way it has in Europe. America drools over flash, glitz, glamour.....America wants to see some idiot in droopy clothes and gaudy jewelry rapping in a hot tub with thong-wearing women. Electronic music is still missing that "star power" people over here seem to crave so much. The whole cult of personality phenomenon.

Yeah Jess there was a diffusion through the country here but it was fairly rapid - the massive tabloid publicity house got must have helped.

In that case, shouldn't Aphex have gone number one with the "Windowlicker" video? ;-)

LA's own rave scene has been around since the late eighties and even had what for the time was *the* rave station, MARS-FM, and later its tamer but still okay enough for a bit follow-up, Groove Radio. At KUCI, where I'm at, rave and dance shows have been part of the playlist for a long time, with one, "Riders of the Plastic Groove," having been around for a decade, maybe more. Local events in, around and outside the city a-plenty, a huge hardcore fanbase, etc. etc. -- it's here, but it's a subculture simultaneously big enough to be known but not big enough to actually translate into anything, if you will...

A few recent mainstream dance hits in the US: "One More Time", "Around the World [La La La]", "Better Off Alone", "It Feels So Good". I think "Digital Love" might be gaining steam. What do they all have in common? Personable vocals, slick production, uncomplicated euphoric melodies. I wish they would play "Romeo" on the radio, I don't see why that couldn't be a huge hit.

And before the internet became a really informative source, you really had to be plugged into a scene or be lucky enough to have a radio DJ to know about house, techno, whatever. I love dance music but I rarely go out -- had the Electrifyin' Mojo not been on the airwaves during my youth, I would have been completely clueless for a much longer time.

I don't think grunge/alt-rock has anything to do with the early 90s disappearance of housey stuff from the US charts - their audiences are too different. What seems to have taken its place is R.Kelly/Brandy & Monica-type R&B, which wasn't quite that huge prior to that, as well as the dancier end of hip hop ("Jump Around" and such).

"We pay tribute to the days when Disco Sucked and The Insane Coho Lips came forward to fight and ultimately rid the airwaves of this vile stench... The content on these pages is meant to help remind us of our victory and to ensure that these moments in time are not forgotten by future generations of Rock music fans."

http://www.outernetweb.com/focal/disco/

Disco Sucks a reference is made to far right in the Britain that wanted to oppose black soul boys.

I know when I was a little kid there was a generally felt sense that disco (and therefore dance music in general) sucked and was horribly uncool, an impression that lasted until I got into music enough to investigate in more detail.

[counterpoint: My little brother likes ABBA and Chic but doesn't like any electronic music. So maybe it *is* the facelessness issue.]

My childhood in late 70s Michigan is thick w/ memories of "Disco Sucks" and "Disco is Dead, Rock is Rollin'". Odd to think that this was homophobic. That's not how I remember it, but then, I was ten, homosexuality didn't cross my mind, and the word hadn't been invented yet. I guess I do remember rock being posited as rougher, tougher, cooler, so that falls in line w/ the homophobia argument.

It was, actually, a White Sox game, ironically vs. the Detroit baseball team. FWIW, Steve Dahl is more of a talk radio DJ than a rock DJ. His partner -- on the radio and with the Insane Coho Lips -- was Garry Meier. Unfortunately, all of the racist, homophobic bits are true. (And part of the reason that house never spread in Chicago to the mainstream in the mid- to late 1980s.)

Frankly, disco is still falsely considered a synonym for dance in the U.S. And historically rock critics are way guilty, too. Lester Bangs' article on the death of Elvis argues that thanks to solipsism no musical figure would ever have the shared impact of Elvis and, possibly as proof, has a couple of anti-disco shots. (Reference to a "disco sucks" shirt owned by Bangs and "maybe if I told them Donna Summer had died…" to a group of Latinos.) (Incidentally, Dahl used to dress up as the Fat Elvis to perform Insane Coho Lips songs in Chicago clubs.)

Ian's right about the early '90s radio, but I don't think any of those tracks were recognized as "house," they were just pop songs filtered to radio through the normal channels not through rave or Dj culture (although LA may have been an exception) and, as I remember it, weren't recognized as being as part of any burgeoning dance scene. Neither were the more acid house crossovers: MARRS, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses.

Anyway, with regard to your question, although I agree geography is a big factor, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the pre-rap, pre-MTV chart/radio consensus in the US that everything had to be categorised as either pop, R&B, AOR or country, and crossing over was generally frowned upon. Dance music in the sense you mean it never really fitted comfortably with this rigid pigeonholing. Even now, there seems to be a mania for labelling music in the US (cf. Grammys, MTV awards). There are signs things are now changing, but the bigger the country, the longer it takes to evolve I suspect.

Although there haven't been any more Disco Demolitions that I'm aware of, the knuckledragging/"don't be gay" element of American culture obviously still exists and leaks through tastemaking. My 15 year-old brother got ridiculed for liking a Daft Punk song just as I was made fun of years ago for voicing my love for an Expose song.

I have never driven a car in my life but I can imagine driving fast on a German Autobahn/ American Highway/ British Motorway doing over 100mph in the night listening to Kraftwerk: The Mix, Two Lone Swordsmen, Ed Rush & Optical, The Advent or Yello the New Mix in One go, any New Order album - its the constant flowing driving propulsive and addictive beat.

Indeed Two Lone Swordsmen album: Tiny Reminders - is an album that would be ideal for fast driving..the electro/ techno pulse is constantly moving forward..just like driving a car.

I'm certainly able to enjoy listening to house & techno in a club, or in the car, without being whacked out on E. As I've said, there was a time when I absolutely hated dance music. My refrain was pretty much the same as yours. It doesn't happen overnight. I think it helps to have a friend that is really gonna invest some time into getting you into it. That's how I got into it, by hearing my friend play Chemical Brothers and Underworld nonstop back in '96. It's really just a whole new paradigm to grasp for most people, as it doesn't really conform to well-established conventions. Honestly, if I had just decided to pick up a dance release and try to get into it for myself back then, I probably would have taken one listen and thrown it away.

The local student bar is dance music on Thursday and Saturday, pop on Friday. No rock music allowed. They say it would drive away their regular customers, I like to remind them regular customers go cause they can crawl back to student rez and the beer is 50 cents to 2 dollars (depending on the night). Oh well.

As far as dance music being mostly monotonous and boring: Isn't that the way with every form of music? I enjoy dance music in the car in the same way that I favor the Stooges or Neu or whatever. DJ Martian's thoughts are right on; it's in the repetition, the drive. I can't listen to Double Nickels on the Dime while driving, despite the auto theme, because it's so damn choppy and up- down-up-down. And since I do a lot of freeway driving, repetitive music -- whether it's disco, funk, house, techno, or Krautrock -- is ideal. Listening to Manuel Gottsching's E2-E4 on a sunny autumn day while driving from county to county has sent me in a way that no "lyric based rock record" can.

How do you explain "(Wish I Could Fly Like) Superman," then?

Back in 1979 I wasn't a Kinks fan! I was 18 and my world began and ended with Joy Div, PIL, Buzzcocks etc. If it was made before 1976 I didn't want to know, except for the allowed VU, Bowie, Roxy.....etc Actually a few of us were getting into Chic too.

As an aside, "The Kinks" for me means 1964-1971 ("The Kinks to "Muswell Hillbillies") - all classic, but I wouldn't mind running a search and destroy on their later years to see what folks think.

Yah Mo B There, as James Ingram and Michael McDonald would say, Dr. C. Later, post-Muswell Hillbillies stuff is hit-or-miss, but not as bad as some folks would have it IMHO.

hmmm. this statement is interestink. because there was an incredibly incestuous amount of crossover between "disco" and other underground scenes, especially as discos public limelight began to fade, ESPECIALLY in new york. fer instance, since all my arthur russell information is fresh in my mind...1977 (?): russell almost joins the talking heads, IS in a combo with david byrne and rhys chatam...1979: russell releases "kiss me again" (first disco single on sire records, feat. git work by david byrne)...1986: rough trade releases russell's "world of echo," containing instrumental versions of many of his disco singles...there are plenty of more examples that arent immediately springing to mind (a couple: liquid liquid, material..."disco not disco"...had a steve miller track on it fer fucks sake!)...i would argue that something happened between the decline of disco and the rise of (proto) house and garage which laid the foundations for their later estrangment from other sorts of undergrounds in america (if not the mainstream)...but because i am butt ass tired, i leave the work to someone else...

Jess - you're definitely onto something! I need to think it thru a bit.

It seemed to be a little bit of all of that, plus future shock, americentrism, rockism. As for the more extreme claims, the rhetoric did get a bit ugly.

Ah yes, that 'disco edit', I'd forgotten about that - in favour of the live version. In fact, the more I think about it the more relevant this diversion is. After all, Low Budget is essentially a concept album about the declining fortunes of the United States, what with the oil crisis and everything. Most of the material provides sly commentary on the economic and social woes facing the United States at the end of the 70s. My point being that this may also explain why by '79, the disco bubble was starting to burst and the backlash was in full swing. In harsh economic times, who wants to dance?

None of which explains why, when the good times began to roll again, the theme songs were "Born In The USA" and "Eye Of The Tiger"

As for whether or not Americans dance -- yes, in droves. But you'd be surprised at how many people enjoy dancing to hip-hop, beatpop like Britney and N'Sync, and even certain forms of rock. House music isn't the end all and be all of dance music, y'know.

Personally, to me dance music is for just that; dancing. I _do_ like to dance, and yet my civilian listening is _very_ bass, guitars n' drums oriented. I have a few electronic records, but it's mostly sound-sculpture stuff like Autechre and Boards Of Canada.

Good call on how many shit cash-ins there were. Ever heard Barbra Streisand's "The Main Event"? SHUDDER.

numero uno - hiphop. hiphop effectively replaced trad. funk, soul, the harder/"blacker" end of disco as the urban dance music du jour in the mid-80s, even when it wasn't particularly what "we" associate with dance-y (esp. tempo-wise.) hiphop, more than any other genre (?), defined itself *against* disco (cf. chuck d - "it's the most ARTIFICIAL [irony alert!] shit i've ever heard" - on house) catalyzing a longstanding african american bias against disco/house (greg tate, discointelpro, geo. clinton.) so, hiphop and "dancing" (again, as "we" define "dancing") have been "estranged cousins" (c. sasha frere jones) for the last two decades. i also think tracer's on to something above: tempo...most people CAN'T DANCE to modern house/techno...it's just too goddamn fast. my mom (a disco queen from the old skool) is more likely to get down these days to a destiny's child or mystikal song than a marvellous cain track or "dooms night." modern rave-hop has retained the basic tempo- template of hiphop (albiet somewhat sped up) while slyly incorporating all the tricks of the trade from 30 yrs. of dance music. making it - for my money - a lot more interesting than a lot of the "dance" which came up in the same 1996-2000 period. (say what you want about uk garage, so much of it to me sounds like a slighty more-"dancey," sped-up american arr n bee record. craig david in amurrica anyone? cough, cough.)

numero dos - appropriation of "black music" (read: dance music) has always been strictly relegated to white-bohos post-1970. late 70s: "death disco," "we are all prostitutes." late 80s/early 90s: anything revolving around the primals/madchester axis. late 90s: umm..."idioteque"?...(i'm tempted to put squarepusher et al here too, but things get a bit stickier then.) was the 60s blues boom the last time a large scale white remix of black culture made it to the mainstream? (this is not a rhetorical question...i'm actually looking for answers.) is hiphop the only genre which has resisted this trend?

Personal note to Tracer Hand: He'd shoot it to sh#*. You can't disco in jack...just kidding. The whole music industry would be better off with D. Boon still around. (I'm planning a novel in which, as part of the backdrop, D. Boon survived past 1985 and it was the Minutemen, not Nirvana, who brought alternative music to the mainstream. It's not a wish-fulfillment story. Really. There's some unforeseen complications. However, this also has nothing to do with the subject on hand, so I'll shut up now.)

I am the author of http://www.jahsonic.com .

I like the rhetoric here. :-) and thought I'd say hello.

Jan

On the other hand, I have been to, and know of, some pretty mainstream clubs here (in the U.S.) that play an enormous amount of techno and the like. So it's around as another possible flavor, but of course, you are right that it is not the same sort of phenomenon it is in the UK.

I like the rhetoric here. :-) and thought I'd say hello.

hi

Funny how hip hop turned into trance so slowly no-one noticed. Imagine you could beam some of that back to 2001, they'd think it was a joke.

Except that the hip-hop blogosphere been commenting on this fact for about 2 years or so.

xxl seems to have deleted noz's posts, but here is noz calling it in Feb. 07 http://www.xxlmag.com/online/?p=7513

Half of current chart rap sounds like Eiffel 65. Coincidence or did the Italian sound have some sort of underground following in the US back in 01?

More like "Blue" was a giant hit here, but Eiffel 65 has exactly zilch to do with why trance sounds are cool in rap right now.

im not trying to say im the first person to comment on trancey hip hop its just funny to read about america not embracing dance music because of hip hop and that its now descended into a euro parody.

Trancey sounds in hip hop came in when everyone bought a microkorg

Yeah, pretty much.

it's often just straight samples tho

thats just everyone who was too broke assed tight to buy a microkorg

If only Stevie T was reading this, he could pretend it was a thread about Lorrie Moore.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 27 September 2001

wow I was funnier back then.

the ecstasy references are way more explicit nowadays, like I can remember Select Magazine (!?) having an article about ecstasy gaining popularity in hiphop with a load of cited lyrics, this must be 7/8 years ago, but then it was fairly casual, not whole songs about being fucked and gurning.

I first thought rap/rnb was starting to sound like European dance music when T.I.'s "Why You Wanna" and Justin's "Sexyback" came out. So can we put the blame on Timbaland? I think "Why You Wanna" came out before "Sexyback" though, but the latter was probably more influential.

Though trance rap is also a pretty logical continuation of crunk, isn't it?

i remember thinking sexy back sounded like a track on the first steve bug album

why you wanna doesnt sample trance

No, but it sounds like house.

I wasn't talking about sampling trance, just about rap/rnb tunes that sound like Euro dance music.

I first thought rap/rnb was starting to sound like European dance music when T.I.'s "Why You Wanna" and Justin's "Sexyback" came out. So can we put the blame on Timbaland? I think "Why You Wanna" came out before "Sexyback" though, but the latter was probably more influential.

― Tuomas, Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:51 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Though trance rap is also a pretty logical continuation of crunk, isn't it?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:52 AM Bookmark

These posts otm. There was some euro-dancey stuff on the Diddy album that came out around then, too, but JT's was more influential. "Sexyback" was the first thing in the current euro-trend to get a house beat on urban radio and "My Love" was the first with a trance riff.

As for the crunk 'nuum, most (but not all) of the trance-riff stuff has been built on straight crunk beats. Lil Jon and his peers were using old-school rave riffs anyway, so rave (but not trance) riffs were already heavily present in hiphop prior to '06. It makes sense for crunk to jump a few years ahead stylistically in its rave-biting.

No, but it sounds like house.

― Tuomas, Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:34 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Are you not familiar with "Gypsy Woman"? I find that highly surprising. I was under the impression you were highly into mainstream dance stuff around the time that came out.

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/53105/Is_America_killing_dance_music

i saw this online.

i don't really know about dance music but i thought it was an interesting article.

kill mon dead

all the interesting stuff in dance music is happening in america tho

why does carl cox not love "the time (dirty bit)"?

WHY DOES CARL COX NOT LOVE "THE TIME (DIRTY BIT)"?

because it sucks?

that article makes very little sense due to treating "dance music" as one monolithic entity. guetta and tiesto were massive in europe way before america discovered them and have always outsold the uh more "fwd thinking" or whatever types, who weren't affected then and won't be affected now because the overlap is minimal to start with.

all the interesting stuff in dance music is happening in america tho

wut

because it sucks?

...

that stuff can overlap tho, ibiza being the perfect example. was there last week and despite the commercialisation of basically everything, a hippie spirit still prevails where fist pumping beefcakes happily dance side by side with wiry moustached east londoners. my experience of clubbing in america is limited but it's a freedom i never felt in, say, miami. imo these clubs sound like the problem, not the djs or music.

i wanna go to guetta's night at pacha reckon it would be insane.