Punk and Country

I think that both Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash, had either been born a little later and little more British/New York, would have been right at home in a punk group.

Punk = country? Naaah. Truly great country has a genuine sense of transgression about it, because the moral/religious/patriotic guidelines have to be in place before they can be crossed. All those songs about adultery present real agonizing moral dilemmas, as the (stereotypical?) country audience puts actual stock in the sanctity of marriage etc., whereas Rotten's "two minutes of squelching" isn't causing any sleepless nights. Country = Jerry Lee Lewis on a Benzedrine comedown wracked with remorse for forgetting Bible school, while punk = speed buzz tinged with juvenile glee in bunking off art school.

Which may be why 'alt country' has been doing less and less for me - I get the feeling that they're typical muso refugees from Midwest butt-rock Skynyrd-cover bands. I would say Merle Haggard is closer to the Last Poets or the Watts Prophets (coming from another vantage point of course) than he is to punk.

Best 'cheatin'' title I've seen in a while - Warren Zevon, "If You Don't Leave Me, I'll Find Somebody Who Will"

I think i was talkign more about their enegry , the release valve provided . and there socioeconomic differences

Most 14 year-olds don't say X isn't punk because most 14 year-olds have never heard of X. I don't see much of a connection between today's alt-country and punk either, because most of what gets called alt-country isn't that energetic. Although many of it's practitioners may in fact be ex-punks. F'rinstance, Rex Hobart may have been the singer of a hardcore band, but you'd never know it listening to him now.

Who remembers Jason and the Scorchers, who ripped it up?

Not to disagree with anything said here, but Kentucky (where I think Johnny Cash's grew up) = home of Squirrelbait, later to morph into Slint. And Bakersfield (where Mr. Haggard cut his teeth) = home of Korn (alright, maybe we don't want to go there ...).

country = the end of the world starts here (points to heart)
punk = the end of the world starts HERE (points to head)

X = the end of the world starts here (points to crotch)

i meant x as in unknown qaunitity not X as in la punk legend

Compare 'country' to 'hip-hop' and you start to see some very interesting parallels. Questions of background, convictions, adherence to thematic rules and communicating in language of target audience crucial. Overriding philosophy of both genres = some variation of "The Devil Made Me Do It"

alt-country = retirement home for ex-punks (John Doe, Mekons, Neko Case, Hank Williams III, etc.)

I like country sometimes more than punk. I don't want to get into a debate about which is better, but I'm a fan of both. Good country (not the shit that's been on the radio for the past 20 years or so) is usually a little wittier (yep, even for an "ignorant hick") than most punk, a little more introspective and a little more forthright. Most punk, even political punk (ugh), is about as witty as anyone with spikey purple hair can be, trying to elicit a reaction from odd or shocking subject matter or in your face holier-than-thou political rant-chants. For the record, I don't like many country artists, but the ones I do like are reeeeal good and also, Leatherface is a witty and introspective "punk" band, I guess. I don't know what qualifies as punk these days, but I guess they're it.

Alt-country started out being rather revivalist, so in that sense, it's kind of like modern punk revivalism--and pretty much the rest of modern pop music. As far as whether alt-country is still country, well, if Gram Parson is country, then Emmylou Harris is country, and by extension, the Jayhawks. Or maybe Ryan Adams ain't country no more, but Whiskeytown and Honeydogs used to be.

It's hard to say, but you have to remember that C&W was never this sanctified genre to begin with. There were always different sorts of country, from the Texas Playboys to Hank Williams, Jr. and Carlene Carter. Maybe the confusion stems from the fact that a lot of these alt-country bands are more closely aligned with the Texas country sound, which is pretty different than Nashville sound. Bands like Old 97's and Br5-49 are definitely not Tammy Wynette or George Jones. More Western than Country--like Guy Clark, Waylon Jennings, Robert Earl Keen, Jerry Jeff Walker, Townes Van Zandt, et al.

Having said that, sometimes it does seem like punk people cross over and do this sort of caricature rootsy country thing--not that authenticity is always required, but when you can see the seams, it makes the suspension of disbelief all that much harder.

...but Kentucky (where I think Johnny Cash's grew up) = home of Squirrelbait, later to morph into Slint.

Uh, no. Johnny Cash is most definitely not from Kentucky. There are a number of notable country musicians from Kentucky (Loretta Lynn, Billy Rae Cyrus, etc.), but none of them were from Louisville as were the bands you mention. Most assuredly no country musicians attended Kentucky Country Day school.

And Squirrel Bait didn't exactly "morph" into Slint, considering that only one member of the former made it into the latter (unless you count Britt, who plays drums on a couple SB songs but wasn't their "official" drummer).

Alt-country is fatally compromised for me by being invented by Gram Parsons, a rich-kid junky charlatan with a crap voice who was an inept lyricist to boot, and who I'm going to put on the ILE 'rip- canon-a-new-shitchute' thread right now.

I'm not sure that pedigree is necessarily a requirement for good music. I mean, authenticity in pop music seems always a little suspect. So the fact that Gram Parson went to Harvard and dropped out shouldn't have any more impact on the alt-country phenom then the fact that The Band were a bunch of Canadians. Are the Flying Burrito Brothers to blame too? They weren't rich kids snorting coke, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't Waylon Jennings, either. What exactly is your idea of real country music, anyway?

I agree with Mickey. According to Nick Tosches, when Bob Wills was 14 years old, in 1919, his dad made more than $20,000. I don't know what that would be now. $100,000? $200,000? More?