Problems with writing professionally about music.

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Am I the only finds within half an hour after reading something I've had printed, reads the rest of the mag and just wants to have ten more things printed, or preferably everything else to have been written by me also? Ego I guess but this is not my main question.

Secondly, isn't there a real sense of middlebrow about print journalism, when you're covering music. At the moment there's an understanding that I can't absolutely pan local Irish bands, and yet I'm given some to review. As far as I see there's nothing worse than a tepid sort of "this is ok, really!" review. Maybe I'm not good enough at these, is there some technique for saying you think a band are boring and going nowhere without panning them?

Is there always a sense of feeling shoe-horned into a particular mags style? Does this maybe get better over time as you gain respect and are allowed to be yourself a bit more?

Maybe it's all a different skill which I am still learning, I find I'm ok with praising the stuff I like and it reads well. Is this just par for the course in mags now, that everything is short enough that it reads a bit wishy washy anyway?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I normally write more clearly than I do in the above post.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry but JESUS you've got a HUGE ego!?! : - D

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Does this maybe get better over time as you gain respect and are allowed to be yourself a bit more?

No. "Music Journalism" is the lowest rung of a very, very tall ladder.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a bad enough magazine, bear in mind. There are far better writers than me around here, loads of them, that's why I ask for advice I guess.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah people don't argue about The Rapture on 'Nightline' with Ted Koppel.

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey music journos! Stop ruining my dreams! MUSIC JOURNALISTS HAVE GROUPIES!

― Jole, Monday, 2 February 2004 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

On ILX, maybe???!!??? In real-life? No.

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah people don't argue about The Rapture on 'Nightline' with Ted Koppel.

heh heh. If they did, I'd certainly watch it, though.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't know "groupies" was synonymous with "acne"

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I get a 'word up' occassionally from the dude at the record store when I bring my promos in??!?? Does that count?

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Working in a record store = one rung lower than a music journlaist, though. He can only look up from his vantage point.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

no groupies?

― Jole, Monday, 2 February 2004 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

you're lucky if you get an intern, much less a groupie

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 2 February 2004 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe I'll become an accountant after all.

― Jole, Monday, 2 February 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

In terms of middlebrow, it depends wildly on who you're writing for. I write for my local daily paper, a national music mag, and a US-based genre-specific music mag.
In strict terms of reviews:
For the first, I keep things fairly descriptive and breezy. My readers aren't necessarily music hounds and are just looking for some quick info on new releases. Middlebrow is definitely what my editors are looking for. There are sort of understandings about not being vehemently dismissive or harsh about area acts (a colleague at this paper actually refuses to review local albums, so that he never finds himself in the position of ever meeting someone whose record he dissed; me, i try to make a point of covering local acts whenever possible, cuz where else will you read about them? And while I may go easier on them, I don't give them a free ride. In fact I recently gave one of my favourite local bands a middling review on their latest album and got caught up in a month long exchange with the drummer over my 150-wd review which said some very good things as well as some honest criticism)
For the second, I go a little deeper. This mag runs a couple hundred reviews per issue, so I know that anyone reading my review is actually interested in music.
For the third, I don't quite get academic, but I assume that there is a lot of already shared knowledge between the reader and me. So I can make more criticism and a little less description.

Is that somewhat close to what you're talking about?

xpost

― Huck If I Know (Horace Mann), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe I should have asked this on ILE.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

oh shit sorry horace that was an x-post!

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

yes that's sort of what I'm getting at, it's a music/politics mag and I guess they're all quite into music but they are casual enough music fans relative to myself I suspect.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

As far as I see the problem is that you are supposed to merely inform the peons rather than convert them to your ~~new world order~~worldview - this sounds dull and an utter chiz to me I must say!! I think being able to inform whilst not sounding like the dullest wankfest in the world is a happy medium I doubt I'll ever manage to achieve but what the hey, I could always have a bish. Anybody want to give me some money and I'll write about some music? Come on! I have a killer line about Joe Dolce READY TO RUN - NOW!!

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

that's the trick, huh?
You want to, y'know, communicate with the reader, impress your editor enough that she/he will give you more work, and satisfy your own expecations of your critical capacities. Usually not in that order.

― Huck Stable (Horace Mann), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Also I do not give two figs what the "reader" thinks - they should care about what **I** think!!

I would be more sorry than anything else for an editor who had to work with my stuff. Do you think I should submit the Judge John Deed blog post to the Radio Times?

And as a critic I would hopefully change my opinions as often as I do as me the not-critic right now, that would be the capacity I'd be most concerned about keeping. KEEP THE PEONS ON THEIR TOES.

Peons appears to be my new word then. Bugger.

― Sarah (starry), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I've sort of managed that Huck, I guess if one was actually happy after getting stuff printed you'd never improve.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

That, I think is one of the learned pleasures of writing for periodicals or newspapers. You never do as good as you could have done with one more hour, one more day, one more week to work on the project, BUT as soon as you file this one, you can start working on the next one and as soon as you this one in print, hopefully you'll learn from what you're not satisfied with.
There are many ways to improve, but none, as far as I've known, as effective as experience.

― Huck Stable (Horace Mann), Monday, 2 February 2004 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I've pretty much decided to indefinitely retire from journalism, specifically music journalism. I'll still write the occasional one sheet or bio for a friend, and maybe two two or three reviews for magazines I like, but overall, no more. It occurred to me that I can make more money waving a fucking flag at a construction site than I can writing a column for a newspaper (which I did until a few months ago). Mondo depressso, to say the least. So currently I'm looking for lucrative 'grunt work.'

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 04:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Hi Roger. I feel your pain.
I don't know what I'm trying to do myself. I constantly tell myself, THAT'S IT, never again!
But I get sucked back in. And I'm thoroughly addicted to promo copies (which I've been getting for 7 yrs now, though I've always bought as much as I could afford too, but the pure mystery of promo copies, you never know when you're going to stumble on something brilliant! The hunt. I'm so hooked.

― Huck/Home, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Solution = work a day job and write for Stylus when I feel like it.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I have an opinion about Stylus.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you now.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes you'll have to pay me for it!!

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Sadly I'm skint. How about I blow you a kiss instead?

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

huhu, pu ekam dna ssik

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry m8, I'm skint as well AND I had to buy new shoes yesterday. In fact I am open to all offers to write something for you if you give me some money. I don't HAVE to mention Joe Dolce if you don't want me to.

I'd have more of an opinion on Stylus if I had heard any of the indie rubbish you cover, of course. The Walkmen? The Fiery Furnaces? Dude. Remember when indie used to be fun?

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

No, which is why I don't write about it. I leave that to the kids.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Really? Oooh that's harsh. I do. I even remembered some of it when I saw ULTRASOUND on Ne'er Ye Mind Yer Buzzcocks last night. This reminds me of my resolution to go and see more rubbish indie this year. (Since when did they start charging over a fiver BTW?? F#ck off).

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Come to Exeter and go to The Cavern. Proper indie rubbish for a fiver!

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

*blushes* ooo Mr Southall are you asking me out on a DATE?

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't say I'd go as well!

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't have gone ANYWAY!!!

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(I typed that in a Jonny Vegas voice - I hope you heard)

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I object to the word 'professional' here. It's a gloriously amateur ting, yeah? Unless you're like Mark Beaumont or whoever.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

The Rapture are at The Cavern on the 9th of Feb, I think. Is that indie enough for you? If you buy me a Guinness I'll tag along.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:27 (twenty-two years ago)

nick OTM throughout, i think.

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

One does one's best.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

it doesn't get much better with experience, to be honest. in fact, the higher up the chain you go, the tougher it gets, to be honest (see my disastrous tenures at certain uk broadsheets). just keep yr head down, plug away, do your best and get some more stuff up on that blog of yours!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Does this mean me and Sarah are an item now?

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

deviating from thread slightly, marcello, i need to drop you a mail re some advice/help w/ something... you busy today and do you mind?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess the major problem with writing professionally is actually getting paid haha suckers. Did I mention I get paid every Friday? Marvellous.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You can pay for dinner then, luv.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

(curses)

Anyway I am on a diet.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah but I'm not. Get yer czechbook out.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I have an opinion about Nick Southall.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Do go on...

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT YOU'D HAVE TO PAY ME (geez is no-one getting the hint here NB I don't accept paypal at the moment although I have a spanky nochex account).

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll give you £1 if you come to Exeter to collect it.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Well class, today we've learned that music writing is only profitably if you're just in it for the flirting.

― Huck Stable (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

profitably = profitable.

I'm on serious over the counter flu stuff.

― Huck Stable (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah right.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The Beatles are the most important band in history. :-)

― The Beatles are the most important band in history. :-), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but they ain't the best.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

That'd be The Architechs, obviously.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Ultrasound were on never mind the buzzcocks?

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Working in a record store = one rung lower than a music journalist, though

I love the feeling I get when reading this that somehow moaning about being a music journalist is one step above actually being a music journalist.

'Cynical music journalist' is not better than 'music journalist enjoying themselves'.

Of course, cynical music jouralist enjoying themselves is best of all.

...and if I had to review ILM and include a one line description to go above the article, that might be what I'd put.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Although very best would be 'cynical music journalist enjoying themselves listening to Ultrasound's utter classic Stay Young'.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone else get the feeling that when you are paid for writing, somehow you feel less like you're just a nutter on the bus, scratching yourself in inappropriate places and throwing your money out of the window?

Payment = ostensible justification.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

a girl i knew went all the way up the ladder:

music journalist < concert promoter < club owner < successful musician

now she's dating a lawyer

― joan vich (joan vich), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

So she's back at the bottom of the ladder, then. *dodges brickbats from Eisbar, flees*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

At the bottom of the moral ladder, but the top of the financial ladder. The greatest curse is to not know how to sell out.

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

reply to stelfox:

sorry dave i was away from computers for most of yesterday so have only just seen yr post above. if still needing help, drop me an email.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 4 February 2004 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

seven years pass...

I'm not sure if we've ever talked about this but I'm curious what people's experiences are when writing for news/magazine markets outside major cities. If you're going to review a band that is coming to the city, do you try to discuss them in the context of the area? Do you totally ignore that this is (for example) Phoenix and not NYC and just write however you would write in NYC? If your piece is running to coincide w/ a live performance in that city do you try to write more about their live show and less about their album work?

― Mordy, Friday, 9 September 2011 13:47 (fourteen years ago)

I should add caveat by "major cities" I really meant national audience as opposed to local audience

― Mordy, Friday, 9 September 2011 13:48 (fourteen years ago)

If it's relevant to the performance I don't see why not? Then again the inside of a venue's the inside of a venue. I quite enjoyed this review of Bob Dylan in Vietnam, which spends a good chunk of it discussing the venue and location http://thequietus.com/articles/06062-bob-dylan-live-in-vietnam-review

― Yo wait a minute man, you better think about the world (dog latin), Friday, 9 September 2011 13:51 (fourteen years ago)

I haven't been to this particular venue, but I mean more like should I ask this guy when I interview him about other times he's been to the area and try to incorporate that into the piece to give it a more local feel? That feels very hacky but at the same time it makes no sense to me to write something that could've been published anywhere in the country.

― Mordy, Friday, 9 September 2011 13:59 (fourteen years ago)

i know someone here has strongly held opinions on this. help me out!

― Mordy, Friday, 9 September 2011 15:11 (fourteen years ago)

I don't think there's a right or wrong here in respect of what the readership in non-major cities 'want' - like some ppl really love/need to have their region *validated* in some way, even if it's as ephemeral as reading the singer from Cage The Elephant say he always enjoys playing there, and some ppl find it annoying and tokenistic and prickle slightly when they read it

― Amazing pic of the universe! - VERY NSFW (DJ Mencap), Friday, 9 September 2011 15:18 (fourteen years ago)

guess it depends whether you think that a show in NYC is demonstrably different to one in Phoenix?

― Amazing pic of the universe! - VERY NSFW (DJ Mencap), Friday, 9 September 2011 15:19 (fourteen years ago)

i do find it pretty pointless to see reviews of national acts in the free weekly here (especially since the writing is shitty). are there people that only get their music info from this local paper?

― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Friday, 9 September 2011 15:25 (fourteen years ago)

seven years pass...

https://longreads.com/2019/06/26/if-i-made-4-a-word-this-article-would-be-worth-10000/
discuss

― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 28 June 2019 18:18 (six years ago)

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