This week's Petridish punchbag - but does he have a point?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/critic/feature/0,1169,1140574,00.html

Despite the fact that "What's Goin' (sic) On" was NOT done with complete freedom but was recorded against extreme pressure from Gordy (Gaye just did it as a fait accompli and then went on strike for six months until Motown agreed to put the record out), despite the fact that "Neither Fish Nor Flesh" pisses all over every other TTD record, despite the fact that The Petridish probably got a backhander from the BPI to write this article - is there, amidst all the usual philistine rubbish peddled by the failed music magazine editor and failed TV presenter, a point? Do musicians make better records when they have "less freedom" or when they have complete freedom?

Of course, if The Petridish had been around in '66 he would have probably given "Pet Sounds" one star and slagged Brian Wilson off for being self-indulgent and not giving his fans more songs about cars and girls etc.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

What's Going On = Complete artisticfreedom, situation = recorded without record company influence.

Ryan Adams love is hell vs Rock and roll?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Creation happens within artistic boundaries.

Record companies impose financial or artistic requirements.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

The overwhelming majority of stuff chatted about on - say - ILM is or was recorded with complete artistic freedom, a concept so obvious most people wouldn't even give it a second thought. Petridish's editor probably wouldn't be very interested in a piece that concentrated on the excesses of Jackie O Motherfucker or someone though.

How ironic.

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

well jackie o m and their ilk usually get farmed off to john l walters to do 100 words on in his "give him something" column on friday.

how about fleetwood mac - tusk (we're gonna do it anyway) vs mirage (ok it didn't sell go back to the formula)? and mirage has noticeably not been given a deluxe expanded cd reissue.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Exactly. And who starts threads about John L Walters?

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a good question, it depends on the artist. I can think of a few artists who could have done with a little less artistic freedom and maybe someone around to say, "Are you sure you want to put that out?". Frank Zappa for one and the entire country of Japan for another.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there, amidst the usual bitchy nonsense posted by obscurantist noodlers, a point?

Really, what is the point - he's not writing for The Wire is he?

― aloysius, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:39 (twenty-one years ago)

be quiet alexis.

(in response to dadaismus):

some would say "most improv artists." to quote steve lake in the wire of the mid-'80s - "so you recorded your new album in 45 minutes, Herr X. The Rolling Stones/Fleetwood Mac/Special AKA took two years to do theirs (implication: these guys care!)."

(remember this was the mid-'80s, when two years to record an album was still considered an abnormally long time, rather than the routine it now is)

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

He's writing for a daily broadsheet that's generally respected for its levels of commentary. I think it's reasonable that his stuff gets held up to scrutiny

(xpost)

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it depends entirely on the artist and their individual approach. I often produce better work when 'guided' by someone who knows how to manage a project better than I do and that's why record companies are so useful to artists. The relationship between the two parties requires a balance to be established in which there is some kind of mutual compromise - both parties recognising what the other wants and working to accommodate that into the work without losing that balance.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

some would say "most improv artists."

Depends on the improv artist! Tho certainly it's an expensive business tryna keep up with the number of recordings they put out. (I almost said "churn" instead of "put", but realised that could be too pejorative).

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I take it this is supposed to be the usual "this pop journo is a wanker, why do suckers pay him serious attention" discussion between the only 2 people on the planet who are paying him serious attention?

― ArfArf, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed, because it presupposes the equally usual two-line intervention about the music press from a poster to whom no one ever pays any serious attention.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:58 (twenty-one years ago)

depends.

some music best when done in vacuum. but much music is best when there is the conflict between artistic expression and functional constraint, the frisson along the border. how to make something, within these parameters. especially, music with social function

so, yea, i think he has a point

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:58 (twenty-one years ago)

"Because it presupposes"? Your motive for starting the thread was that presupposition? Things get ever more bizarre.

― ArfArf, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

it's painful to say it, but i think he's right. if you want complete freedom as an artist, stay on an indie or self-release. if you want massive pop success, make good pop music that will function in the maistream market. it's still possible to do this and be innovative.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

this does not in any way mnake me consider him less of a twat, though

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

well, indeed.

i wonder what petridish makes of the transatlantic chart-topping, multi-million selling album "kid a" by radiohead?

(oh yes, i remember, last year in his review of "hail to the thief" he printed lies about "kid a" not selling. old petridish certainly isn't someone who's going to be put off by boring, inconvenient "facts" if they don't happen to suit his non-theory)

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

loads of people said Kid A was rubbish as well, which as well know now, is a complete lie...

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

name them.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

My dad.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave Stelfox
Matt Dc's dad
Me

That's three and rising.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

only 8,999,997 to go!

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll have them by the end of today Marcello

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I said it was a pile of horseshit.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never heard it.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread is getting like the xfm music response soundclash.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

In any case, regardless of the success of Kid A, it could have sold twice as many copies if the record company had got their way and it had been a radio friendly Bends Mk II album.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah because SALES are all that matter, aren't they? i mean who needs Dizzee Rascal when you've got Westlife?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

in 1967 engelbert humperdinck sold twice as many records as the beatles. so by your logic parlophone should have marched them in and made them do cover versions of lachrymose mor/c&w songs.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

he's not saying that's what they should've done - it does seem pretty clear that Kid A would've sold even more had it not been on the experimental bent that it was though.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

so it doesn't matter that it sold millions anyway? including in america, where "non-experimental" give-'em-what-they-want rock bands like oasis have died the death?

sgt pepper would have sold more had it not been on an "experimental bent." they could have kept on putting out hard day's night soundalikes forever and made money out of it, just like the dave clark five or the monkees did.

there isn't going to be a bends II. it's not 1995 anymore. move on please or stay with your cast records.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

How predictible is it for any particularly uncommercial album by an otherwise popular act to be proclaimed an unheralded work of genius. Until its re-released and reviewed by Petridis of course - suddenly becomes boring.

Waiting for Petridis' 5* review of the remastered Odessa.

― aloysius, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello you know fully well that no one is advocating that level of musical conservatism on here. But lets face it sales ARE what's important to record companies and granting unlimited freedom to artists to release anything would be commercial suicide. I'm sure it would result in some fantastic records, and probably some fucking awful self-indulgent ones as well.

You bought Kid A's sales into the equation. I just don't agree with the implied stance that the commercial success of Kid A represents some sort of artistic vindication, especially given that ANYTHING released by Radiohead in 2000 would have sold millions.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

The other thing is that record companies put up the money for records to be made - if want to get the entire London Symphony Orchestra on their record does that mean the record company should simply stump up the cash and let them get on with it?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, I put that in html tags and its eaten half the sentence.

"if [insert name of two-bit indie band here] want to get the entire London Symphony Orchestra on their record..."

Is what it should've said.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

no you should just apply for membership of the flat earth society, it would suit you.

kid a is a great album and pisses over every other british rock record released so far this decade. if evolution had been down to people like you, we'd still be scratching out lines on the walls of caves.

worse than that, you sound like a BPI apologist. listen to me, they're not your friends. they'll come and take your pc away for any evidence of soulseek/kazaa infiltration, they'll even sue amazon because then they'll lose their cocaine pocket money which they call "profits." i would rather have "lots of fantastic records" than a pile of timid shit put out by acts scared that they'll have to repay their advance. look around you. keane, coldplay, snow patrol - fucking groups of mice. what's the point in defending crap like that?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Spirtualised

― Aloyius, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

CBS paid for the london symphony orchestra to back ornette coleman on "skies of america." it wasn't exactly a million seller but it's still on catalogue. does that imply that they shouldn't have bothered?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

ANYTHING released by Radiohead in 2000 would have sold millions.

spot-on. the thing is that there are successful bands that take risks - like radiohead (who i don't like) etc but they fit a VERY limited niche. they have strong fanbases who will move with them (regardless of how shit the record in question might be).... they're the people who are *allowed* to be a bit off-the-wall, likewise OutKast. every label has a couple, just to be able to say they're pushing innovative music (dizzee, wiley, jaxx etc don't count coz xl is a real exception to this idea). producers like timbaland work in a kind of inverse way to radiohead - they're making mainstream music that comes out sounding odd, as opposed to making self-cosciosly odd music that works in the mainstream. most major-label artists aren't allowed to do this, though.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Marcello you do of course know that I agree with you here and am merely putting forward the other side of the argument for the sake of it, don't you?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

do you mean the finley quaye album (which was actually called "vanguard")? that was a great record, much better than his first or indeed his third (case in point - 2nd album doesn't sell, returns to formula of 1st album, record still doesn't sell).

timbaland hasn't made anything "odd" for at least two years.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah because SALES are all that matter, aren't they?
In the long run, yes, that's all that matters. Especially now since sales ARE dropping year by year. Dizzee might be a *badge* as "hey see we have a critical dah-ling" on our roster, but if he doesn't sell (enough), they'll drop him.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

musicians shouldn't be forced into the position where they have to make records so that their record company staff can keep their jobs.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

His argument's a load of tosh. You can bring artists / recordings in to support whatever side you wish to take.

― mentalist (mentalist), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:26 (twenty-one years ago)

timbaland hasn't made anything "odd" for at least two years.

oh i think he has, it's just his oddness has now become its own kind of orthodoxy. not saying he couldn't buck his ideas up a bit, but... in any case, i do think petridis is a wally and a bad writer, but at least re prince, he has a very salient point!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

b-but prince was rubbish from batman soundtrack thereafter, including at least four years on WEA! timbaland i think has to find "odder" oddness.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

My Bloody Valentine pretty much bankrupted Creation but I wouldn't want to live in a world without Loveless.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 5 February 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 1194 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Petridish has been taking tips from me and upped his game accordingly.

In The Guardian Next Week: Alexis Petridis writes about how he got a sexual thrill from being coaxed into unconscious self-abuse by a telephone hypnotist.

― wordy rappaport (EstieButtez1), Friday, 3 November 2006 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

http://bitrot.net/images/blog/tumbleweed.jpg

doh xpost but hey wtf

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 3 November 2006 12:35 (nineteen years ago)

dubstep is very very very boring.
-- The Lex (alex.macpherso...), July 18th, 2006.

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 10 November 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

the most thrilling, forward-thinking music in the UK today.

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 10 November 2006 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

This has already been referenced on another thread.

― struttin' with some barbecue (jimnaseum), Friday, 10 November 2006 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

people CAN have their minds changed you know benrique

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Friday, 10 November 2006 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

Esp. when they're getting paid for it

― Dadaismus (Takin' Funk to Heaven in '77) (Dada), Friday, 10 November 2006 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

GREAT REVIVE! NOT READ SO MUCH FUN IN A BIT. TA.

(oops for shouting)

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Friday, 10 November 2006 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

haha!

experience of dubstep prior to july = one awful night at dubstep rave made more awful by being too drunk to remember anything, and being in the company of a fucking cunt

what a difference listening to something makes eh

(nb this does not apply to boys wiv guitars for obv reasons)

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 10 November 2006 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

Not Petridish, and not a punchbag, but an example of The Guardian inviting outside contributions:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1888537,00.html

Go on, have a go.

They published mine. I'm only a one-post-a-month ILMer, but it ALMOST counts as 'ILM infiltrating The Guardian'. Woo.

― Buffalo Stan (Buffalo Stan), Friday, 10 November 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

Akon, Konvicted

**** (Universal Motown)

Alex Macpherson
Friday November 17, 2006
The Guardian

This will undoubtedly be the soundtrack to countless bus journeys in the coming months, played through tinny mobile phone speakers by kids skiving school - and there's not much higher recommendation than that.

Next week in the Guardian: Haunted Cafetierias: the future of comedy

― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Friday, 17 November 2006 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

I liked his article on Cat Stevens.

― R_S (RSLaRue), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

sad lex didn't apply the top-deck kids test.
-- benrique (miltonpinsk...), October 13th, 2006.

QFT

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

though, y'know, there probably are higer recommendations. probably not very many teenage skivers end up writing pop reviews for the guardian though.

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

Great timing to coincide with the new NO NOISE ON BUSES campaign.

This week Worzel doesn't like Jim Morrison.

Neither do I, but the article makes me want to try again.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, but if broadsheet reviews have taught me one thing it's that it must be so excting and romantic being a poor black person with no future or prospects.

(xp)

― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Friday, 17 November 2006 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

This week Worzel doesn't like Jim Morrison.

Neither do I, but the article makes me want to try again

OTM! I'm not going to though.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

i still don't know what qft stands for!

god john harris needs to stop.

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:42 (nineteen years ago)

"god john harris needs to stop."

http://www.hollynorth.com/files/gallery_fx/thin%20ice.jpg

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:47 (nineteen years ago)

Are we able to send him to Switzerland to be euthanized?

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 17 November 2006 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005M2H8.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Friday, 17 November 2006 15:02 (nineteen years ago)

"qft" - "quoted for truth". Consider it an OTM for the less metaphorical.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Friday, 17 November 2006 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

i was working on something -- "quelle fucking ----" but couldn't quite get the funny.

― benrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 November 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

Quite Feasibly Touted.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 17 November 2006 15:27 (nineteen years ago)

I always thought it stood for Quit Fucking Trolling.

Now I know.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Friday, 17 November 2006 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

"Who - other than Ringo, obviously - previously paid any attention to the fills on Here Comes the Sun?"

http://music.guardian.co.uk/rock/reviews/story/0,,1949614,00.html

gaaaaaaaah!

― pisces (piscesx), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

Petridish now has a 'fashion' column in the colour supplement. It's shit. But it does come with a cut out'n'keep image of him in a different crap outfit every week.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Monday, 20 November 2006 20:20 (nineteen years ago)

Please tell me its a fashion column consisting of him not knowing anything at all about the subject, aimlessly waffling on about his lack of knowledge, then reaching an aimlessly dithering non-conclusion....

― gekoppel (Gekoppel), Monday, 20 November 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

Like that, but worse. The pictures look like they hang a different outfit on the same cardboard cutout every week.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Monday, 20 November 2006 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

One to look out for then.

― gekoppel (Gekoppel), Monday, 20 November 2006 23:33 (nineteen years ago)

Petridish as wooden mannequin - it all makes perfect sense.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 08:24 (nineteen years ago)

He managed to recycle his "white suit" material for a second time in one of them.

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 08:44 (nineteen years ago)

six years pass...

Marcello's an absolute fucking loon, get a grip man.

― the Shearer of simulated snowsex etc. (Dwight Yorke), Monday, 24 June 2013 16:01 (twelve years ago)

Carlin & Petridish made friends again on Twitter, some time ago.

― Kibbutzki (Jaap Schip), Monday, 24 June 2013 23:13 (twelve years ago)

It's a bit harsh to revive a thread after seven years and pretend that nothing's changed. Merry Xmas War Is Over.

― Deafening silence (DL), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 09:32 (twelve years ago)

only if you want it though

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:23 (twelve years ago)

other people are more interesting when they are at war with each other and neatly balanced in their own symptomatic hatefulnessess

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:29 (twelve years ago)

hatefulnesses

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:29 (twelve years ago)

Petridish is fucking shit

― The drone that was played caused panic and confusion (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:31 (twelve years ago)

Probably shouldn't admit this after years of trolling him, but Carlin is fucken awesome. (*refreshes Then Play Long*)

Petridish is all very "meh" these days.

― Yeezus Built My Hot Rod (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:33 (twelve years ago)

I literally picked the worst time in ILX history to show up didn't I :D

― rockety communism (imago), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:33 (twelve years ago)

Weird to think how oppositional ILM and the Graun were back in the day given how much overlap there is now.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:39 (twelve years ago)

the narcissism of small something

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:40 (twelve years ago)

haha that wasn't even meant to be an innuendo

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:41 (twelve years ago)

guess ilm got coopted, only dommy p managed to hold out, zing flame for all time

― ✌_✌ (c sharp major), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:44 (twelve years ago)

now he zings the stars

― rockety communism (imago), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 10:46 (twelve years ago)

I started giving lots of ILXors work. AND YOU ROLLED OVER LIKE PUSSYCATS HAVING YOUR TUMMIES TICKLED. Ironic that Dom P was the first person I tried giving work to. I didn't realise how much he hated the Guardian at that point. Oh well.

― If you tolerate Bis, then Kenickie will be next (ithappens), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 16:34 (twelve years ago)

Just refreshed my memory by looking up the thread. Jesus Christ, people had some delusional ideas about the Guardian.

― If you tolerate Bis, then Kenickie will be next (ithappens), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 16:38 (twelve years ago)

give us a job m8 i write for vice and that

― the Shearer of simulated snowsex etc. (Dwight Yorke), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 23:09 (twelve years ago)

ban

― rockety communism (imago), Tuesday, 25 June 2013 23:27 (twelve years ago)

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