when "the people" finally start getting interested in what you're interested in (the mechanics of revivals/"fads")

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okay, so i got into a long discussion with ilx's jeremy jordan yesterday about how weird it was that the "wider [american] college-age listening public" (i am avoiding using the h-word here) was finally getting into stuff that i had been into for sometimes nearly 10 years with on minimal to no interest over the years in a big way. (mostly: ukg and mid-period jungle.) now, the ukg thing is a bit easier to understand since grime (though i'd say the interest often begins and ends at dizzee) has erased (or tried to erase with debatable success) every shiny/pop/nu-r&b/house element from the music which might have made it harder for some people to embrace in, say, 2000. (also more "songs".) (though arguably fewer songs, really.) the jungle thing is harder to understand: the music has been sitting there since roughly 1997, unchanged, entombed in history, waiting to be picked up by anyone, evangelized by not a few. so...why 2003/4, nearly seven years after the fact?

i don't want to get into any discussion about motivation or intent or whether or not people "really" like things. this is chauvinistic and just a red herring anyway. but i AM curious as to why this seems to happen when it does. it's not just within the underground/hipster/music nerd community -- look at dancehall, just for the biggest mainstream example of a moment. but why 2003? why not 2001? or 1999? obviously there's a lot of factors at work here - the individual sounds of a genre at any given time [though this point is moot with the revival stuff, though an argument could be made that those "dead" sounds are somehow reflecting something heard or not heard in the current culture], marketing, groundswell of underground/street-level interest [in the mainstream sense], availability - but i have to wonder if there's not something intangible too...or is it just the boredom of culture heat death that leads people to eventually pick over every old sound/new "other" sound available to them?

this is kind of muddled, and, yes, mostly i'm hoping ilx will flesh my thoughts out for me. [i have to go out now, but i will be checking back on you kids later.] on the one hand i'm happy that so many people are finally embracing music that's made me happy for so long. on the other i'm just...kinda baffled.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

see also: indie fans with radio R&B, mainstream rock with emo and garage rock, etc etc.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

if this dies it's own heat death because it's not another goddamn album covers thread, i full expect a revival may 2006.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I went thru this with Krautrock many years ago - the good thing is that stuff that's impossible to find starts getting re-released. Usually the more shallow will move on to whatever the next fad is: Lounge/Easy Listening; Tropicalia; Prog Rock; English Folk, whatever, and leave us boring old devotees in peace.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

if this dies it's own heat death because it's not another goddamn album covers thread, i full expect a revival may 2006.

On behalf of Album Cover Thread Nation, I say to ye: get a grip!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, speaking personally garage rock is the only thing I've felt, uh, ahead of the game on, and in most cases I've decided that none of these new bands are half as good as the New Bomb Turks and gone back to being a smug cunt. But I don't know why - I think in a lot of cases looking for "mechanics" is a wild goose chase. Regarding UKG and grime thought, surely this has a lot to do with the proliferation of blogs, filesharing etc?

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"though" sorry, not "thought"

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe I'm just stupid, but what is the "h-word"? also: college-aged american kids are into jungle now?

― flightsatdusk (flightsatdusk), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

[hipster]

Chaos theory is to blame, Jess.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Hipsters? Hepcats? Hessians? Hip-Hoppuz? Hitmen? Hellions? H-bombs? Hellcats? Heavies? Homos?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

oh damn xpost!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Homunculi

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

haha.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks for the clarification. I'm still curious about this jungle revival... Jess, do you mean that older jungle is suddenly selling at Other Music or whatever your local hip music shoppe might be, or...? I just don't see it suddenly having a new lease on life, but maybe I'm missing something (i.e. I don't live in NY or LA).

― flightsatdusk (flightsatdusk), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really puzzled why NWOSDM is significantly catching on commercially now (In Flames/Soilwork/Children of Bodom/etc) when nothing has changed since the 1993-1995 sound and 99% of the original fans have given up on it.

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't agree with the culture heat death thing - the h-word take-up is to do with music distribution systems (ie the interweb) allowing faster and faster acquisition of new music, outstripping almost any scene's potential rate of change and growth, so it seems like music is going 'slowly' because listening is going so quickly.

As for the 'why now', I was asking a similar thing in the indie-dance-punk-funk thread. Obviously some of it is to do with a marketable Face appearing - Dizzee, Sean Paul, Jack White in the case of garage rock - but that doesn't explain the d'n'b revival, if there is such a thing.

(With the UKG 'continuum' what intrigues me is that So Solid Crew had a breakout #1 single, what, 3 years ago now - WHAT HAPPENED to that mass audience given that the sonic jump from '98/'99 speed garage to SSC is surely bigger than the jump from SSC to '03/'04 underground stuff?)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Expanding on the speed listening thing - is there ANYTHING that's unhip now?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Slipknot took In Flames on tour didn't they Seigbran? I'm not saying that would make a scene on its own, but it might be a bit of a bigger puzzle

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno about all that Tico. I was a complete music civilian in 2001, and as I recall, SSC sounded like Big Brovaz did a year later -- ie it was a sound anyone could like, quite novelty. I can't remember 98/99 speed garage, but SSC were barely harder than 'Rip Groove' etc unless you read the press. Whereas Dizzee's singles have been a lot harsher (I know SSC's Lp was tuff, but who listens to LPs?)

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

some of it is to do with a marketable Face appearing

Which in part explains my own preferred recent example, non-musical -- The Lord of the Rings and its success didn't hurt from the casting and photogenic nature of said cast. Not quite a parallel though, in that I don't think Jess is talking about a transferring across media.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 9 February 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess, do you mean that older jungle is suddenly selling at Other Music or whatever your local hip music shoppe might be, or...? I just don't see it suddenly having a new lease on life, but maybe I'm missing something (i.e. I don't live in NY or LA).

well, yes and no...i mean, obviously soundmurderer is the hip face of junglizm revival (the mix on violent turd, the rewind retrospective on rephlex, him touring the us, hook ups with the whole bug/kevin martin thing, which another avenue in and of itself), but then there's stuff like the remarc reissue on planet mu, simon r noting about how the second room at the dizzee show was playing old school jungle (though i'm sure matthew dear still commanded more of the audience), etc. it's hardly some full blown revival, but the seeds are there and frankly any interest in ragga jungle/hardstep AT ALL in 2004 is kinda weird to me given how marginalized this side of the music was as early as two years ago.

but anyway i dont want this to get sidetracked about any one particular style/revival.

tom raises a good point about the "is anything unhip?" quandry. (though, again, i was trying to avoid bringing hipsterism into it for a reason. mostly so people - esp me - dont get all kneejerk.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

With all respect to the artists I'd be interested to see how many people are actually *buying*, say, the Rewind comp. I think it is a bit easy to imagine a bigger than reality audience for stuff like this when places like here quack on about it. (Not that I'm accusing you of being deluded or anything)

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Monday, 9 February 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I don't want to be knee-jerk about hipsters either. But I do think that there used to be a sort of style alliance between hipsters and purists and that it's eroding now.

I would be really interested to find out what sort of things ppl use P2Ps for - not in terms of what kind of music but what kind of relationship they have w/the music they download. It wouldn't surprise me if it went -

1. Current or old stuff they want to check out.
2. Rare stuff by people they like or have heard of.
3. "Guilty pleasures" they wouldn't normally buy.

#s 1 & 3 push you towards the death of unhip I think.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 9 February 2004 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe I'm out of touch, but while there's been a huge increase in interest in jungle-esque type stuff amongst the geekier record collecting types, many of whom I think read ILM, which is very influenced by certain schools of UK thought, I have seen none to nil interest in it amongst any of the hipster set, or at least the hipster sets that I've witnessed. Will the former eventually lead to the latter? Probably, but I haven't seen it yet.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

simple idea 1: i get the soundmurderer cd as a promo. i'm a wee bit older & like jungle. i playlist the soundmurderer cd to my hipster audience.

also (as per dan): how many jungle fans on ILM were saying in 2003 "o my god, this last week i have been listening to nothing but early-mid period d'n'b"

― mullygrubber (gaz), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, I wasn't reading ILM for most of 2003, and when I did, I pretty much ignored anything jungle or d 'n' b related. A quick look just now at blissblog and Simon's thoughts on the Dizee Rascal thread made me think people would use that to counter my statement, that at this very hip show in williamsburg there was a DJ playing classic drum and bass. What I find interesting is, the show was a Soundlab event, a group who's profile has been pretty low for the last few years, and perhaps this resurgance, at the same time as Dizee's appearence does mark this acceptance, so a segment of the pop who have been waiting a few years for jungle to be a big thing again are feeling it, while I'm sure most of the rest of the crowd would never have thought of themselves as into such music, untill saturday perhaps. Me? I'm still saddened by the failure of electroclash and I'm gonna stay home and listen to Fade to Grey.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I guess eventually, everyone will have to recognise you as Jesus Christ of popular culture in about say, ten years, you start a cult, and eventually kill all the cult and yourself due to dodgy connections with the cia. *shoulder shrug*

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really not the type to kill anyone, but other then that, sure....

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

but to respond to the orig. question, again, I think it was Simon who mentioned that while rock works in 20 year cycles, dance works in 10 year cycles, making now the 10 year anniversary of 1994, which was a a peak turning point in Jungle/Drum n Bass, right?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Tom's on point about a genre generally crossing over when it has an elvis or a kurt or a bob marley or a mike skinner or a johnny rotten to provide an entry point. (if I was understanding his first post in this thread)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 9 February 2004 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i honestly haven't noticed any renewed interest in anything 90s jungle related in the last two years. In fact, the whole jungle/drum n bass genre seems to be at its lowest ebb ever.
As for dancehall, it's simply cos a few influential hip hop DJs (Funk Flex, Enuff etc) started playing T.O.K, then Sean Paul etc, cos it was working in the clubs. And people here follow hip hop, not breakbeats and reggae per se.

― paulhw (paulhw), Monday, 9 February 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

FOR GODSSAKE PEOPLE FOR THE LAST TIME THE QUESTION ISNT ABOUT ANY ONE GENRE ESP JUNGLE

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

ahem

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 9 February 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I blame Derek Bailey.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 9 February 2004 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Reissues (or a well marketed buzz-worthy current release) and critical attention (and sometimes critical attention which prompts reissues, but that seems rarer) pretty much inspires these sorts of musical revivals. Although in the US it's not really fair to call most of these things revivals since ragga jungle, tropicalia, krautrock, etc, only had a very very limited audience the first time around, so it's more a sudden awakening on the part of people to a little portion of musical history (or present) that they missed/are missing. And yeah most of it just starts and ends with one record (and then a bunch of subsequent reissues.) People'll buy their one Os Mutantes collection or Soundmurderer mix or whatever because of the buzz and then a few other things. But some things are more pervasive and present (the current dancehallification of pop music or the sudden over-ground popularity of grunge in the early 90s or southern rap whatever) and that's more complicated because huge trends start and disappear (like 90s East Coast hardcore rap for example) for many many many weird and unconnected reasons (and it ain't all just marketing.)

But yeah the sudden interest in Ragga Jungle and Dizzee and Tropicalia and what not just strike as isolated things inspired by sudden passing critical appreciation of a certain record or genre. And some of these trends last longer (shit, Krautrock is like a constant buzzword isn't it) and some just fade away after that first glut of reissues.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I think its important to remember that all of this flux rarely creates more than a ripple in the mainstream. Unless its connected with a change in clothes fashion.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

It's kind of interesting how the adult Wal-Mart market has a similar interest in "novelty" as the college kids, its just that because they don't have as much leisure time, its usually just one big album a year (see Norah Jones, Oh Brother Where Art Thou?, Eric Clapton's From The Cradle).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that's why I tried to create the distinction between dancehall, grunge, Dirty South stuff (i.e. things that are charting/charted and are really what constitutes of what is popular) and little mini-underground trends.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont have any good ideas as to why it happens, but it is a weird thing to experience. i think a lot of it has to do with marketing, the creation of "Cool" etc., and i dont know how that works. it was weird being in college a few years ago and playing house music at parties, and watching a mostly indie crowd not dance at all, and then, towards the end of my tenure, listen to people ask me about house because they heard that the Rapture was into it. they never seemed to be satisfied with any of my answers, maybe because they wanted "house" summed up as quickly as possible so that they could "get it" and lord that udnerstanding over the uninitiated, maybe because they didnt have faith that i was talking about the same "house" that the Rapture was talking about (ive listened to it for ten years - its possible i know more about it than the Rapture), or maybe because i am not beautiful and famous ;-) the mechanics are complex because the whole retro thing can create a weird feeling of being older than people your own age (my entree into synth pop was Violator when it came out not Ladytron). i doubt this helped, didnt want it to sound so self-aggrandizing :-(

i wonder what will happen now that hip hop "rules america". krautrock might have always been obscure but there is something really strange about the sudden "discovery" of mainstream artists who have always been popular. the newfound love of missy by the general-intrest press and indie rockers only two to three years after her creative peak (IMHO Miss E) seems rather odd. i find myself tempted to say that her earlier albums are better, which, if uttered, would suddenly make R&B the new indie rock, so i wont, though i have been feeling distinctly snobby towards all of the yuppies coming in to buy the Outkast album today ("Is this the one that won the Grammy?");-).

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

This question fascinates me, too, Jess, but I think you have to approach it on a genre-by-genre basis because there doesn't seem to be ONE good answer, no matter how generically expressed it might be. For example, I see the beginning of the rock intelligentsia's interest in Brazil more-or-less traceable to Brazil Classics 1: Beleza Tropical and Japan with Shimmy-Disc's release of Soul Discharge -- some gatekeepers threw the smart set a bone and everybody just ran with it. Whereas I suspect the revival of all manner of post-disco dance musics might (might) be due to the work of a small number of influentials who actually grew up listening to techno, went to raves, wore the big pants etc. before they became discovered the indie rock (or whatever) and joined the "underground/hipster/music nerd" community.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 01:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm hoping that with P2P affecting people's tastes, soon the record companies will start pushing all genres simultaneously!

― Jole (Jole), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

but see strongo, the reason people like me are writing about the (non) rise of specific genres is because we think your examples are wrong, and hence don't know how we could speculate on this general issue you've set up.

― paulhw (paulhw), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

failure of electroclash

It didn't fail and it still isn't failing. I'll start athread about it as this is avowedly not about individual genres.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

jess im sorry i hate this thread

― $, Tuesday, 10 February 2004 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

As has been hinted at before, I think it's important to bear in mind the difference between genuine 'revivals' or 'discoveries' and the minor interest on the part of a small community. Also, I agree with the need for a 'face' for certain genres, but, for example, who was the face for the sudden interest in bhangra? I think in this respect, the interest was lead by a group of pop/r'n'b/hip-hop producers - notably Timbaland I suppose. I wouldn't call him the face of bhangra though.

In fact, I think loads of the 'revivals' recently come via pop/r'n'b producers. So, if you start, for arguments sake, with Get Yr Freak On: people see something works and copy it. People see producers are doing self-conciously weird things and do their own things. Genres are pillaged for this end. So, to me it's interesting how bhangra merged with dancehall and 80's electro when pop/r'n'b producers were trying to copy/out-do each other.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Jim...I think electroclash had a major impact on music, mostly in helping revitalize many different genres, kicking house and techno out their little insular worlds, telling club producers its okay to write songs and sing and put on shows, showing punk bands it's okay to use synthesizers and drum machines and to dance, but as far as itself as a singular genre...very few of the acts associated with it have lasted. Larry Tee claimed the title was inclusive of sounds from different genres, like I mentioned above(and I've always given him credit for having Monotrona perform with Fischerspooner...) but very few of the acts associated with it have lasted, as I think it was a very superficial thing and most of the bands just weren't any good, the better ones only going as far as their novelty. I think perhaps the Scissor Sisters are one of the few that can have legs.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i totally agree with your point, Dan - this is something i've been thinking about recently.. but are there any other musical parallells of a genre being more of an influence on other genres rather than having success within itself

― s n d, Tuesday, 10 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

>I've always given him credit for having Monotrona perform with Fischerspooner

wow, points for that.

― (Jon L), Tuesday, 10 February 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

of course the place was empty by then. It was one of the 2 nights that marked the first "electroclash" festival, at the giant Webster Hall. There was a long delay after Fischerspooner and the place practically emptied out. Monotrona did her usual weirdness to the 2 or so dozen standing amidst a lot of garbage, and finally A.R.E. Weapons performed to extremely few people.(which was probably a good thing...if you ask me.)

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

How much are revivals stimulated by absence or lack? I was actually thinking the other day that Reynolds' increasing jungle-nostalgia co-inciding with a slight grime-ambivalence was not, erm, co-incidental. As grime becomes less and less "dance music", a lot of the physical pleasure that "we" have traditionally gotten out of the hardcore continuum will be replaced by other sorts of pleasures, leaving other spaces open for revivalism or new movements to fill - in other words, grime can't "stand in" for jungle as a dance music phenomenon to the extent that 2-step could. The desire for polyrhythmic exuberance will increasingly only be statisfied by a return to the source.

This is a single genre example of course but I'm sure that similar mechanics would be at work with other revivals.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 12 February 2004 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

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