Why does Mark E. Smith hate the middle class?

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Is he, like, a luddite or something?

― SurferDude69, Friday, 13 February 2004 04:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Middle class and being a luddite have what in common?

― luddite (Mr Noodles), Friday, 13 February 2004 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

pay your rates!!!!

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 13 February 2004 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark E. Smith hates everyone.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I was about to say, and if his audience is, say, more middle-class than anything else, then...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 February 2004 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

'Cause they talk of Chile while driving through Haslingdon.

― Sasha (sgh), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Same reasons as Kevin Rowland then?

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

But does he hate Middle Mass?

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes.

If, like the Fall Lyrics Parade analysis by P. Saxton suggests that it is about Marc Riley.

― Sasha (sgh), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

he hates vegetarians

― mentalist (mentalist), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

you mean it's not about Worchester or Lowell, Massachusetts?

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I met him in 1990 or 89 in some pub in some Manchester suburb, my mom is Chilean too. He was actually really nice....

― svend (svend), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

There are enough bumfuck-nowhere places in Britain for MES to write songs about without having to resort to the US.

(although there is more than one song about L.A....)

― Sasha (sgh), Friday, 13 February 2004 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

if i actually had to think hard about the import and overall worldview behind fall lyrics i'd probably start to hate them

or does mark e smith's hate extend to himself? i haven't got the impression it does

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:11 (twenty-two years ago)

He likes loads of people on an individual level, I'm very sure. Including himself.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I hear that he's fairly non-commital with regards cheese

― mentalist (mentalist), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Cheese isn't a person you wacky liberal

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

nice bloke, but a very bitter bloke, he dont hate the middle class, he just resents everyone.

― lukey (Lukey G), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

So would I if I invented acid house!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Wot's there not to hate is the question.

― Jimmy the Saints, Friday, 13 February 2004 09:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Hate the middle class, hate the Queen, dislike the French -- just a part of the English tradition really.

― grapeshine (grapeshine), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

i can admire smiths sense of humor and wit without actually agreeing in the rottenness of all the things he's singing about, that is when i understand what he's singing about

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Im reading 24h Party PPL and although Tony Wilson hates Mark E he says something about a fella who hates the middle clas cause theyre the only ones who gain anything from a revolution. The workers are still workers after the rev and therefore the middle class should be hated. Fair enough.

― Twisterella, Friday, 13 February 2004 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, Tony Wilson, leading scholar on matters revolutionary...

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 13 February 2004 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The only actually nasty lyric I can think of right now is "forgetting the endless drive against nature" from M5#1. Any other examples?

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone should call me out on "where are the obligatory niggers" I think, what kind of racist fuck am I?

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Well hey maybe no-one cares. Anyway he starts off by saying "There is no culture, is my brag" in what sounds like I don't think I'm WACKY to think is his GENUINE SPEAKING VOICE, then goes into ranting FALLMODE for the following offensive statements, "Where are the obligatory niggers?" and "Hey there, fuckface!" which prob used to be no more than offensive, much like the word "nigger" (which still is, it's just "nigga" isn't really and I don't use either I assure you). IE I don't think it's HIM or even MEANT TO BE him. I doubt I'd care anyway, tho.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not meant to be him.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 13 February 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Nevertheless many idiot types take offence

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

You should say "fuckface". It's a great word

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 13 February 2004 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's not meant to be him" is part of the way there: now unpack why he's saying it anyway, please

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

is 'iceland' more or less him than 'the classical'? is 'and this day'? or 'winter'? are the narrators on the third person songs?

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Is this a part of your curriculum or something?

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 13 February 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"Where are the obligatory niggers?"
not that it's relevant to anything at all you're discussing, and not that he needs anyone defending his lyrics or would care if someone thought he was racist, but i bring it up merely because of the recent discussions about the word 'tokenism'... that lyric refers to his disillusionment with Rock Against Racism [who early on the fall played several gigs for] and left-leaning or sympathetic bands [most particularly in the new romantic camp, which he despised] who played up the integration of their bands. to mark's jaundiced view, this was misusing legitimate political rhetoric to further careerist ends.

so on the surface reading of this line then, in the context of the song, it occurs in the brain of a two-faced liberal media type who is bored with the fall and will not promote them because they are all white. cf "too much reliance on girl here"..."too much romantic here"... etc. or so mark has claimed. [compare also to "the eastern bloc rocks to elton john" which has a clear second meaning, ridiculing leftwing groups who strive for a slick pop sound with faux soul] however, he has also claimed that the line cost him a deal with motown records; though there are many who believe this tale, i think it's preposterous and mark's taking the media for a ride. more likely, though i'm completely guessing here, it cost him his distribution with rough trade, an extremely leftwing label, and in mark's repeatedly stated view overly self-righteous. hex was apparently delayed in the winter of 1981, most tracks completed, and eventually came out on a tiny label with crappy distribution. the fall did return to rough trade of course for a few more releases.

that said, then, trying to understand the lyric is of course very difficult, it's mostly a string of abuse. clearly, fuckface and nigger are juxtaposed for shocking effect. i think the term "classical" refers to the fall/smith, in line with his self-mythologizing terms and subjects of previous songs such as new puritan, hip priest, etc. the classical [hotel aggro] poleaxes weak new media [hotel amnesia, home of the vain: top of the pops and that kind of thing] which advertises british junk with a clean cut image [new profile razor unit]. i could be way wrong about this of course. interpretation is always tough with mark's early 80s stuff because he was consciously writing out dialog parts, labeling them on his lyric sheets:

NARRATOR: Then the clan began / Agenda Item One
Scene: Safe-house Give them nail files, soon
GENT AND STAFF- And looking at this agenda, we have a bit of...
now revealed a problem here...

but if you are inclined, for whatever reason [most likely a kneejerk reaction to a white man's use of the n word - compare with elvis costello's use in 1979 for staggering effect and career reorientation] to wonder whether smith does really consider nonwhites to be inferior, look at the song deer park on the same album:

The young blackies get screwed up the worst
They've gone over to the Hampstead house suss
In the English system they implicitly trust
See the A&R civil servants
They get a sex thrill out of a sixteenth of Moroccan

― mig, Friday, 13 February 2004 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

no'm, but the guy next door is doing linton kwesi johnson, if that helps

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

thanx mig! now do side two of dragnet

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they're bourgoiswa-uh.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Friday, 13 February 2004 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i think that the classical is - no, i like it because it can be thought of as being - about as much to do with the 80s indie scene as frightened is to do with amphetamines: they're both specific examples masquerading as general points. although admittedly i know even less about amphetamines than i know about Rock Against Racism.

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i think he hates the middle class because they furnish england with the majority of other things he hates, like students

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 13 February 2004 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

tom, i would cautiously agree that drugs and music scene are two topics "masqueradings as general points" but do not forget, drugs and the music scene are, along with mysticism and social/historical unrest, the recurring themes that as we say "weave through his oevre".

as for the middle class, thank goodness he does turn his attention there once in a while. how can such lyrics as this not bring a smile to your face:

A man
Extremely lazy
Exhumes the cooked pigeon
His words indignant
Because it was cooked wrong
Middle class revolt

― mig, Friday, 13 February 2004 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i dunno much as i love the fall his lyrics seem misanthropic in a way i can't accept--everyone is cursed, everything is compromised and hopeless, etc

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 13 February 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

ah, he's a pussycat on the inside.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 13 February 2004 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, and sorry tom for not going into detail - I just thought a UK person could do a better job of it.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Friday, 13 February 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

God damn the pendantic Welsh!

thee

― thee trouthole, Friday, 13 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

i think he ultimately hates the middle class because he sees Manchester as stuck in a permanent cultural war with most of the rest of England, cf Richard Kurt or Dave Haslam. i could be wrong, of course.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Friday, 13 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

To be honest I always presumed 'The Classical' was about America in some way, which maybe it still is, but I was talking a lot of shit before. Sorry.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oddly enough I watched that Perverted By Language/Bis VHS tape today. Part of why I love it is that he's all smiley in it.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah aside from his records he does seem mostly a pretty cheery guy! Anthony I'm pretty jealous of that, how good is it? It's around on DVD now, pretty cheap, should I get it?

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

A pal who used to manage the local record store found it used some place near Lancaster, PA and knew I'd want it (and buy it from him!). I'm pretty sure it was a bootleg. It's probably worthless for the non-Fall fan, but I LOVE it. Hilarious low budget videos for "Wings," "Eat Yourself Fitter" and "Kicker Conspiracy.". Some great live '81 footage, great MES interview stuff. The highlight for me is probably MES and Brix DANCING in the "Eat Yourself Fitter" video. If you're a fan than it's a must-have (though the novice should probably grab Hex Enduction Hour and one of the live albums from that era first).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a HUGE to the point of being a bit pathetic fan of them so YEAH I'M GETTING THAT SHIT! Ta.

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a good chance somebody has already said this, but as much as I have always loved the Fall (well, 1977-1987 or so Fall anyway) (best albums: Live at the Witch Trials, Hip Priest and Kamerads), I never really had any fucking idea what the guy was babbling about.

― chuck, Saturday, 14 February 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The Perverted by Language/Bis thing is available on DVD, I've got it too, and "Eat Yrself Fitter" is worth the price of the DVD.

― NA (Nick A.), Saturday, 14 February 2004 02:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Why does Mark E. Smith hate the middle class? Have any of you American people ever lived in Britain? Or Europe for that matter? Who voted for Hitler? Who would vote for Hitler again TOMORROW? That's why I hate the middle classes, I can't speak for Mark Smith.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Saturday, 14 February 2004 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

hitler ran for prime minister?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 14 February 2004 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

The Daily Mail tried to persuade him to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Saturday, 14 February 2004 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

People who attack 'the middle class' are dumb. Sod 'em.

― the bluefox, Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

If Mark E Smith and Morrissey had a fight, who would win?

― Stupid (Stupid), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

would the new middle classes really vote for Hitler, though? they seem far too immersed in American-led capitalism to embrace his ethos.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd vote for Hitler? Wow. I had no idea. Wow, I'd better go tell my family, friends and aquaintences (and pretty much everyone in my town) that we're all fascists now.

Thanks for letting me know.

― Stupid (Stupid), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

what dadaismus said only makes sense in the context of a certain type of middle-class (well, really an unholy alliance of upper-class landowners and middle-class bohemian back-to-the-landers a la Henry Williamson) which existed in the inter-war years, who were driven to support Hitler because they sympathised with his pre-modern, pre-capitalist values, not least because they'd have been in a much more unquestioned position in this country had Britain followed that model. it doesn't really equate even with the self-made men of the middle class at that time who had got rich off the back of the industrial-capitalist society that Hitler hated (that's why British Nazi sympathisers tended to be old money rather than new, people who'd lost some of their standing in the wake of industrialism rather than people who owed their standing to it), and it certainly doesn't equate with the mass of the middle classes today.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Saturday, 14 February 2004 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought this Fall bio called Hip Priest when I was in London and I was surprised how much discussion of the lyrics there were. Since then I do try to pay a bit more attention to the words but golly if the music doesn't hold my attention a little more. It's more the way MES says stuff that's affected me since high school.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

though I did actually notice that "Jew on a motorbike!" line the last time I listened to Perverted By Language, which is rapidly rising on my fave fall albums list.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i like the way mes dwells on and sometimes repeats in unusual cadences particular phrases that may or may not mean anything

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 15 February 2004 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Kicker Conspiracy has a great video, thanks for reminding me of that. filmed at turf moor, burnley!

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Sunday, 15 February 2004 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

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