Dizee Rascal: Overrated?

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Can a guy from London with a mouth full of marbles make it in the States? Me thinks he'll suffer the same fate of Craig David. Why is that?

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

short answer: yes!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think he'll do very well in the States commercially, but I feel pretty comfortable on the bandwagon.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Has the Stateside Hip Hop audience ever warmed to a British rapper?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

are you asking if he's overrated or if he'll make it in the states? or both?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

He's certainly overrated.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Who are the British rap artists that the US hip-hop crowd has had a chance to embrace?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Has the Stateside Hip Hop audience ever warmed to a British rapper?

Slick Rick might have a few things to say about that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

He has great beats for sure, but his rhyme/rap skills are still a little lacking. I can't believe some critics are comparing his skills to Tupac.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Slick Rick was UK-born, but US-raised...?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Jesus Christ, we've done this thread ten million times already. Playa Hata, I'm seriously hating on you right now for not using the 'search' function at the bottom of every page.

Dizzy Rascal: what drugs are you guys on?
Not sure about Dizzee Rascal ...

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

and obviously Slick Rick got huge only because everyone knew he was US raised, even though his accent was British as fuck.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

when jess reads this thread he is going to flip out.

― Former Supposed So Called Nihilist Teenage Drug Disco Addiction Counselor (mjt), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I get what I'm supposed to admire about Dizzee, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enjoy (let alone what I'm supposed to find exceptional about him). Eccentric beats are fine if they still hold the attention, and nothing on the album really grabs me. I kinda dig the second track cuz it makes me want to play Super Mario Bros and that "Fix Up, Look Sharp" holds my attention the most (despite the fact that I've only parsed the lyric "bliggity blap bliggity BLOHP") reaffirms that they're probably saying grime isn't rap for the same reason they (and I'm stealing this from xgau) said Paul McCartney was pop - because he doesn't rock. Of the tracks I've bothered to listen closely to I've caught enough romantic frustration that I get why Jess digs him, but nothing he says strikes me as particularly unique or unusually resonant. I'm no Anglophile, I don't hunger for something different and I'm surprised so many people (or at least so many critics) couldn't find 10 albums that affected them more strongly this year.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

He'll definitely be more critically acclaimed than Craig David

― Sym (shmuel), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't have time for that shit. Besides, which of these threads haven't been done a million times? And what about people who didn't respond to them in the first place? Myself included. Just don't answer, asshole.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

we are still waiting for monie love to stage a comeback.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(Although I will admit that had Slick Rick tried to make it in the U.S. had his family NOT moved to the U.S. but remained in the UK, his aesthetic would have been possibly different enough to make a difference)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

now there was a real talent.

― Former Supposed So Called Nihilist Teenage Drug Disco Addiction Counselor (mjt), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Ladies and gentleman - Playa Hata, sure to be a fine addition to the board.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

The rhymes (and beats!) on Slick Rick's debut are so much funnier, more memorable, and more perverse than Dizzee's that the comparison reaffirms my bafflement at the acclaim this gets. I can see the promise here, and I can see why that would excite, but I don't really see the actual GOODS.

And Craig David's "Fill Me In" and "Seven Days" still get lots of love from the local pop station, and for good reason.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Broheems, my pleasure indeed. Leave already!

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

this was a good one:

Does anyone find it veeeeery odd it's taken the english so long to catch on to hiphop?

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well playa hata, you can always revive old threads. but no, i'm not particularly bothered by threads that have already been done, i've set some up myself. i think "will he make it in the states?" is a marginally more interesting thread than "is he overrated?"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

what you're "supposed" to enjoy? it's staring you right in the face - the flow is ill, the beats are sick, the album is the fucking bomb. it's not that complicated. it seems 99% of peeps who want to jump through all these hoops just to diss / attempt to like Dizzee have to listen to hours of uk garage in order to understand its groove, etc.

bah.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean why should I get excited about troof when I've been hearing "truth" since I was in 4th grade? Why should I get excited about nine millimeters ending debates when in American songs the guns actually GO OFF?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I did by accident catch him on that MTV Advanced Warning show last night and he does seem like a really pleasant guy. Though I don't see that video skyrocketing up the Direct Effect top 5. Especially if Busta Rhymes doesn't show up much anymore (I think Dan's the only person I've heard make that comparison, and I tip my hat to him).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree, Anthony, which I think why Dizzee won't make a peep in the States, other than with critics.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha the host of Advanced Warning actually said "the critics love him and maybe you should too." His accent on the word maybe really surprised me.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly, if some kid from the Bronx produced that in his basement, no one would give it a second listen.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

And just in case I'm playing up my lack of Anglophilia, I'm not particularly excited by 50 Cent either (though "In Da Club" has a great beat and usually everything I hear by that guy has at least ONE line that makes me glad I've heard the song).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Whaa? What does a lack of Anglophilia have to do with Fitty? Am I missing something?

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure if DB was actually calling me out on a pedantic point regarding some clarification of a question I raised regarding Alex's vaguely silly question about artist lineage which piggybacked the initial query that started all this lovin' off, because if you are, bitch, I'm crushing your head!

DB's 2nd post (about the possible impact Slick Rick's stateside upbriging JUST MIGHT HAVE HAD on him) was what I was thinking about when I asked for Slick Rick clarification from the judges.

My initial question was serious, tho - what UK-based MCs have had success in the US? And what US-based MCs have had success in the UK? Is there a cultural divide that works both ways to prevent artists that are nation-centric (PLEASE, someone, think of a better word than that dash-addled asscrap) to find success overseas?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

U&K: Ignore my CAPS LOCK LUV on JUST MIGHT HAVE HAD, FYI. OK!

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Craig David had hits and sold a couple mil over here, why the fuck would you make the comparison if you don't think Dizzee will take off?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I get what I'm supposed to admire about Dizzee, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enjoy

The same thing you enjoy about Corin Tucker, plus a little bit of what you enjoy about Jay-Z, combined with the fact that he's more sui generis than either of them (ok, maybe he isn't at all, but i'm ignorant enough that he is in my world).

He's not overrated, though he is emo. His album is only if you think it's like an A+ or something.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

way late xpost (sorry)

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Limp Bizkit has hits in the UK!

and for those who've been playing along on other threads, where Kish Kash actually PISSED ME OFF, because I felt the production sabotaged the singers, this album doesn't actually rankle me or anything. It makes decent background music. I'm just waiting for someone to give a positive review that doesn't sound like an anthropological study (though Harvell's "I'm feeling your heartbreak, Dizzee" stuff works for me).

Also, I know "Big Beat" is a popular rap sample (or so I read!), but I'm ign'nt enough about old school rap that I don't actually know WHO has sampled it before Dizzee. Help me out?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

gabbneb, I have NO IDEA what Corin Tucker and Dizzee have in common (unless it's like, PAIN, or something - in which case I don't see why specifically she is being brought up)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Grime does not pay. (Sorry, I'm full of bad puns today. Carry on.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

and Jay-Z, if I have any love for him, I love for the beats (or the non-emo stuff like "Change Clothes" and "Can I Get A...").

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Craig David had one minor hit MONTHS after his Stateside release, yet the same hype circled Craig David. David was reduced to a one-hit wonder. (His second album did NOTHING). It's a perfect comparison in terms of hype and the return on said hype.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

And WK, watch you language and show some respect.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Miccio try UTFO "Roxanne, Roxanne" (over the "I don't like your rap cuz your rap is dead / educated rapper, no sense in your head" part) and RUN DMC "Here We Go" for starters.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

the only reason that the David comparison rankles me is that stateside David at the very least had hits. In fact, I'd argue his two hits rang louder than the hype. This isn't (or to be nice, has not YET) been the case with Dizzee.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks, Broheems!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

The Corin connection - young person discovering their voice
The Jay-Z connection - the "non-emo stuff"

or how about the fact that he loves what he's doing?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, as I said, I admire that. What I enjoy about Corin is what she DOES (emotional, lyrical and musical hooks), rather than what she's trying to do.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

True. And given that Dizzee doesn't yet have hits, perhaps it wasn't the best. (But I still think in terms of press hype/critical acclaim, they're similar. And Dizzee will be as quickly forgotten as Craig David). But in terms of Mercury-Prize-winning hype in England versus recognition in the States, maybe Roni Size would be a better example.

― Playa Hata, Friday, 13 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The American mob loves played-out sounding shit. Dizzee is neither ridiculously derivative, nor shit. Mainstream America will reject him. And who cares?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Friday, 13 February 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 227 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Because the brit hiphop media is wary of its own genre being shunted out by garages bastard child.

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Definitely I hustle blad, definitely I grind
You can try anything you wont I definitely don't mind
Definitely got my ting, I definitely know your face
So don't jump out your promo, definitely put you in your place
Definitely I hustle blad, definitely I graft
So you can chat anything you wont, cuz ill definitely will jus laugh
Definitely got my swords, definitely got them sharp
So don't keep talking like you bright,k cuz it definitely will get dark
Listen, definitely I hustle blad, definitely I fly, so you can chat anything you want,
ill definitely jus sigh
Definitely know im real, definitely no you aint
So don't try being no devil, cuz I definitely aint no saint
Definitely I hustle blad, definitely win
So you keep taking this for a joke, and I definitely will just grin
Definitely could of herd, definitely couldn't know
Don't talk like your on top, ill definitely leave you below

― tipustiger, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

what?

― The Ugly American (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

actually those are pretty good lyrics, though I don't know what "blad" means and I can't remember what track that's from.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

my blad

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

don't be so teste

― omg, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"Jus a Rascal"

I just wanted this thread to settle its disagreements with some epic throwdowns.

― tipustiger, Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

haha cool

TS: Dizzee Rascal vs. Jimmy Kimmel FITE!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

cos liking british hiphop is a weirdo minority position which is obviously totally removed from anything remotely street or dance.

Wah? I know very little about the subject, but do you truly stand by these statements, Ronan, or were they overblown for dramatic effect? Like, I can believe this about DJ Format, but I can't really about Roots Manuva or Fallacy (especially not the first part...)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 14 February 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(first part = removed from anything street, not weirdo minority position, which I find easier to believe)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Saturday, 14 February 2004 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

grrr I R threadkilla, I really wanted Ronan to answer this!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 15 February 2004 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

relative to what's being discussed on this thread yes it is removed from anything street.

Rave is british hiphop. "british hiphop" is like a two pin plug converter.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 15 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Rascal brings nothing new to the malt liquor warped table that is mainstream, american hip-hop. However, this fact can only aid his conquest for fifteen minute attention and success. More accent than he is wit, more hype than he is hope, Rascal will be old news on the street by 2005.

― Kevin M. Falahee, Monday, 16 February 2004 04:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow that sounds like it's from a press release. Are record companies indulging in pre-emptive hype-destruction these days?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 16 February 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Falahee's post is from the one-sheet for the new REM album.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 16 February 2004 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"Slobodan Wzxericz's Romanian nose-flute music brings nothing new to the beer-stained warped table that is mainstream, american country."

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Monday, 16 February 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What street are you talking about exactly, Kevin?

― scg, Monday, 16 February 2004 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

any more lofty proclamations for us?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 16 February 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't really want to get to involved in these threads. I just find it hard to believe that people can't get just a little bit excited when hearing Dizzee Rascal chat. There's a reason his album came out first. Maybe I can understand it from those kind of Stans who own every single DJ Whoo Kid mix tape and think that 'flow' begins and ends at Young Buck, but but but. Dizzee Rascal would kill most US MCs just talking over their set. And fair enough if you don't actually like the music. But most of the criticisms are still based on his voice, his nationality, that he can't compete with 'real' rap, that he won't last. Anglophobia. And and and most of these criticisms are coming from people who barely listen to rap anyway!Fuck it I don't give a shit if you don't like Dizzee Rascal or if you don't think he's nothing on Lloyd Banks or Juelz Santana. He's not supposed to be better than them (he is though). It's just that not one of the negative crits of Rascola (slight exaggeration)on this board have been as impassioned, on point and fully realised as the positive comments. And the guy who said this: 'Why should I get excited about nine millimeters ending debates when in American songs the guns actually GO OFF?'. That's just some embarassing shit.

― scg, Monday, 16 February 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, well, that's our Miccio.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 16 February 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

scg. i don't think the people you're talking about really exist. dizzee got a good review in murder dog and check some american hip-hop message boards for threads about him, they're mostly positive (a few: 'i can't understand a word he's saying, he sucks').

― cloverlandthug, Monday, 16 February 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Dizzee Rascal joins N*E*R*D for a rendition of ‘Lapdance’.

― JoB (JoB), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Cor! Ronan I missed this the first time round...

liking british hiphop is a weirdo minority position which is obviously totally removed from anything remotely street or dance.

You know I come from a pro-UKHH position and I certainly wouldn't try to claim any element of 'street' in my life, but I don't agree with that at all.

You might hate it, you might not listen to it at all, but
1. attacking something for not being 'street' enough is lame, keep it real, eh?
2. if you insist on using 'street', on what basis is the UKHH scene, self-supporting and mostly based (and strongest) in the same areas that grime's coming from, doesn't qualify? Aside from that being 'obvious' of course?

More to the point, are you going to be in town this weekend?

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

are you going to beat 'im up Tim?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

'im =>

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Check ILE for last question!

Well does UK hiphop really appeal to the same jungle audiences as grime is? To me it's always seemed, whether by coverage or otherwise, as a genre the UK dance mags discussed and some people liked, and the stuff I've heard had a deeper connection with dub and reggae than it did with rave.

I mean in terms of the UK having an equivalent of US hiphop, rave seems to, or seemed to fit the bill far more, it's far more popular for starters. Is it inaccurate to separate the two?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

aargh my prev post was eaten up.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

No but "street" != "jungle" or "rave" does it? [There may well be some meaning of street I'm missing I suppose.]

I mean, it exists (mostly) separately from "dance" yeah, it was the "street" piece I objected to...

I'm on ILE Strike until they respond to my list of demands but I'll look at the thread and will be in touch.

Julio, twinkle, all my beatings are reserved for you.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

When you mean "a UK equivalent of hip-hop", what exactly do you mean? A movement from "the streets", a movement from an ethnic minority, a movement concerned with politics, with dancing, that's the biggest in the world... I'm sure you do have a point worth discussing here (probably in a seperate thread actually), but it just seems muddled at the moment.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the UKHH scene, self-supporting and mostly based (and strongest) in the same areas that grime's coming from

i'd disagree with this.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the difference between UKHH and grime (and possibly one of the reasons that grime has more of a hold on the media than UKHH does) that UKHH is, in fact, pretty much spread all over the country (sure, Twang, Manuva, and Fallacy are all from London, but then you've got Aspects in Bristol, PLC in Luton, DPF and all that lot from Norfolk, the Wolftown scene, a bunch of guys in Birmingham, all that stuff on that "Northern hip-hop" mix from a few months back)?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

While grime (and its antecedent genres) don't really exist north of the Watford Gap.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

in which case it's funny that grime has more of a hold unless you're just talking the London-biased media. Also there is absolutely no reason for grime to be confined to being just a London thing anymore than hip-hop or jungle or whatever.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no reason, but it does seem to be a more localised than most things. Also, yeah, London based media. To take an indie analogy, a band doesn't exist unless they've done the Camden toilet circuit to certain sections of the media.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't there sometimes a geographical link with genres which means they can't exist outside of a certain place?

Perhaps one of the key things about grime is its localised nature, even if that's not quite to the same extent as people here say, at least I thought I'd read on some of the grime threads about some non London based grime crews.

I mean just because it'd be fairer if big cities weren't more consistent than small ones doesn't mean this is the case, or it ever will be.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Things in general tend to come out of one place before they spread (grime might or might not).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 19 February 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i asked on here about grime outside of london (or south east at best), didnt get any particularly satisfactory answers though (supposedly pockets in manchester, nottingham, huddersfield, i dont know). i dont think grime will spread outside london, because, as dom says, even its antecedents genres never really became demetropolized (unless you count hardcore itself, which was nationwide), but since jungle, its been capital-concentrated. ukhh doesnt seem londoncentric at all, for what its worth

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

In the days (a couple of years ago) when I'd follow what people were saying about UKHH, there was no end of complaints from people outside London that no-one ever paid any attention to them. Maybe that's changed, but it still feels to me as though the heart of the matter's in London.

I can see that UKHH it less london-centric than grime though, for sure (does this affect how 'street' it is, btw?)

Stelfox, were you disagreeing just on the geography issue or saying that you don't agree that UK hip hop is pretty much self-supporting?

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the fact that the NME piece tells us that Gem form Heavy Stereo attended the NERD/Dizzee gig.

Can all threads on this subject be titled pop vs folk, cos the gatekeeper-ness is very reminiscent of ye olde folk music. I doubt Dizzee himself has the historic grounding in electronic music that most posters here aspire to.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

All I've read about UKHH suggests it's just full of people who hate commercial hiphop etc etc, it just seems like the American indie hiphop thing to me, Jockey Slut champion a fair bit of it and occasionally put in on their CDs and I've never been very impressed. I don't get any real sense of ethnicity from it, perhaps that sense of a localised scene where a whole load of people are working in the same general area gives something more cultural resonance.

If people aren't covering something just because it's purely based in London then that's idiotic, same way it would be if it was purely based in Manchester or Dublin. Something being purely based in an area is a special kind of cultural phenomenon.

Does UKHH have as extensive a club culture as garage? I mean really what I could also be asking is if UKHH has that street level resonance why is it so much less popular than garage or probably grime too at this point?

I think at some point you have to conclude that it's not part of a lineage in the same way as garage/grime.

(Enrique, there's historical grounding and then there's Dom's post last week which was completely ignorant, I mean I'd still love to see a justification for Dizzee being straight out of 1998, and also that lame syncopated snares comment. Cursory knowledge of dance would be enough. Not asking for anyone to be a devout expert, I know I'm not but that post was nuts, that's why it was called out)

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes a subjective approach works. For example: problem with UKHH would seem to be that it has willed its way into existence because its advocates believe it *should* exist. A few years ago attempts were made at equivalents to US hip hop language ('queen's head' = 'dead president' apparently). This may be complete bollocks, but there we are. UKG OTOH is, if not organic, at least less self-conscious about its importance, or its 'necessity'.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's a mistake to say that UK Hip Hop = US undie business. There may be sonic similarities some of the time. It's a different thing, and I think most of the best UK Hip Hop people would love to be working at a higher profile.

Ronan you're great but if you're going to call out Dom for talking about a genre from a position of little knowledge, then citing Jockey Slut as the source from which you get your info on UK hip hop doesn't really fly.

I don't know about 'extensive' but as far as I can tell, UKHH is pretty much entirely a club-based thing. And it's not part of the same lineage as garage / grime / whatever (except in a very broad sense) but it's totally part of a lineage with a history and a changing sound etc.

I'm not sure about your point about 'ethnicity': lots of my fave London hip hop sounds completely like London to me. Not sure what 'ethnicity' would sound like...

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique I might have bought that point ten years ago but I just don't think it applies now, perhaps because people have been making hip hop in this country for long enough that there is a tradition of sorts.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Indeed, the old "UK rappers all want to be American" meme has basically no basis in current British hip-hop.

Ronan, when you say "undie" do you just mean that it doesn't sell as well?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim, I'll belive you, I am basing opinions on half-remembered conversations from the late 90s.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I do think that "Run Come Save Me" was a kind of Day Minus 0 for British hip-hop. It did precede "Countryman", right?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate being the bloke who comes on here to defend UK hip hop, particularly since I think 2003 was UKHH's worst year since, I dunno, 1998 or something. But we all know how annoying it is when we read people on here having a pop at a genre from an apparent position of little knowledge, don't we?

I'd rather just hear "UKHH suxx" (or whatever) than theories about what's wrong with it from people who don't really know anything about it.

(That problem's mostly away from this board, in the press and that, I'm really not having a go at anyone.)

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom it's all about the singles innit? "Where My Mind Is At" was '96.

"Countryman" and "Brand New Secondhand" came out at about the same time, I think, if you must be albumist about it.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"Brand New Second Hand" was 1999, wasn't it? "Countryman" was 2001.

It wasn't the most inspiring year for UK hip-hop, admittedly. None of the big guns released anything, one or two "oooh, this has got potential" singles that never went anywhere... hmmm.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I forget the dates, it's all a bit of a blur... You're probably right.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 19 February 2004 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

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