Kayne West: After all the hype, it's actually really good. Right?

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I think so.

― Debito (Debito), Thursday, 19 February 2004 03:53 (twenty-two years ago)

It's awful.

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 19 February 2004 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

And I liked I'm Good

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 19 February 2004 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

It's amazing how this record produces such different reactions.

― Debito (Debito), Thursday, 19 February 2004 03:58 (twenty-two years ago)

It's really pretty average. It's not a patch on any of the mixtapes.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:00 (twenty-two years ago)

way above average, tho there is way too much filler, like so many hip hop albums

― juiceboxxx (juiceboxxx), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't listened to it since I bought it, taking the time to sample Kamikaze instead.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:04 (twenty-two years ago)

kanye? I think the question is...WHYWOULDYE?

Is the average song on the album better or worse than "Through The Wire," which I thought was a PARODY of 50 Cent before I saw the video.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:07 (twenty-two years ago)

But dude, the fact that he had his jaw wired shut and went ahead and recorded the song anyway is...well, it's touching and more than a bit silly and touching because it's more than a bit silly.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

there definitely is some strength in the lyrics but the absurdity kind of becomes a bit too much for me (especially with the munchkin chorus hook). Did he produce Jay-Z's "Song Cry"? I had a similar reaction to that.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:14 (twenty-two years ago)

and wait...recorded the song anyway? I thought the point of the song was that his jaw was wired shut!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, in theory he could've waited until he healed up a bit, since in the rap, he's talking about much of the events in the past tense.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

For all his wide range of lyrics and sweet sounding samples, its hard to get around that Kayne is a horrible rapper.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I like his flow. It's honest. He's got things to say, so he just goes ahead and says them. It may not be pretty, but it works.

I don't think he's a producer/rapper. I think the album is his vision/his voice. He couldn't have done it with guest MCs.

― Debito (Debito), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

but 80% of his verses were written by roc ghostwriters or common.

― William Wiggins, Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that right?

― Debito (Debito), Thursday, 19 February 2004 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i loved this on first listen and then it got old incredibly fast. it's essentially a backpacker record, bolstered a bit by a more mainstream sense of space and the familiar use of sped up vocals as a textural element. but to me it seems fully of the moment, well timed but without a whole lot of lasting value. "Slow Jams" is really dope though.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Thursday, 19 February 2004 05:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of it was ghostwritten, but I'd be interested in how W. Wiggins knows the percentage. Are there any good articles out there on the phenomenon of ghostwriting by the way?

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Thursday, 19 February 2004 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

He's got things to say, so he just goes ahead and says them.

What does he have to say? He keeps talking about how much he has to say but he never says anything. The album is so wishy-washy and bland, but he's so smug about it. I think he's a great producer, he's just gotta stay off the mic.

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 19 February 2004 05:34 (twenty-two years ago)

After initially having any expectations dashed by ILM, I really like it. A lot of the beats are hot, although yeah, there isn't much to his drums. And while he's not a great rapper, his rhythm is pretty tight and he's pretty musical with his phrasing. There are some good punchlines, and some of the serious stuff is good, esp. the second to last track.

The violinist might be the star of the album.

I've also grown to hate the fuck out that J. Ivy verse or whoever he is, the straight-up Saul Williams clone.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 19 February 2004 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

bottom line is that kanye's flow is corny. and he's a catholic

― asfdzxc (asfdzxc), Thursday, 19 February 2004 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

but 80% of his verses were written by roc ghostwriters or common.

Uh thats not true at all. AT all. Anyone who knows anything about Kanye knows he's been a rapper for a long-ass time. He DEFINITELY wrote all the verses himself. And while he's not ridiculous in terms of rhyming skills, his lyrics are touching and personal and humorous.

He reminds me of both Large Pro and El-P in that he's a great producer, not so great rapper in terms of pure skill, but a great lyricist.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 19 February 2004 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

J-Ivy is definitely the worst part of the album. Ruins an otherwise fantastic track.

Cut half the skits, J-Ivy's verse and you've got a 5 mic classic.

― djdee2005, Thursday, 19 February 2004 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you. I am not alone.

― Debito (Debito), Thursday, 19 February 2004 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

having had to write about it no less than three times sucked all the joy out of it for me, but i suspect if i had spaced my listenings out i would have come to the same conclusion, just later: zzzzz.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

boring
average for today's sub-standard albums

― jj, Thursday, 19 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

he could've made a much tighter album if he hadn't tossed out a few of his best songs just for having been on mixtapes for a while, and replaced them with mostly so-so new songs and a bunch of skits that aren't even funny the first time around. parts of it are great, though. at the moment I really like: We Don't Care, The New Workout Plan, Family Business and Last Call.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 19 February 2004 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

seems like all the best songs were on that earlier version!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 19 February 2004 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

the way I see it, it's kind of a trade off...if not for all the delays, he could've released a more solid version of the album 6 months ago, but I don't think it would have sold nearly as much, because the hype only really started to pick up steam in the past couple months. and I'm glad the album is making the impact that it is, he definitely deserves to sell more than Bleek or the Young Gunz.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 19 February 2004 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah that young gunz album is fucking atrocious.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

baby I feel the same as he do, spit the game as strongo do

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 19 February 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

such bullshit that ghostwriters wrote his material...and Common! anyone who knows hip hop can tell his verses are nothing like common's distinctive but strangely awkward lyrics.

― paulhw (paulhw), Thursday, 19 February 2004 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah...Common's verse on "Get Em High" is seriously the worst moment on the album...those huge awkward gaps between lines...and people are talking about it like it's Com's return to form!

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 19 February 2004 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Common's really been on form since Breaker 1-9

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 19 February 2004 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

SFJ gives Kanye points for not being "corny":

http://slate.msn.com/id/2095696/

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

its a good review.
i like the album a lot, but i dont know shit about hiphop.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

sfj on point as always, but i wonder if hip-hop WAS less "corny" (i.e. zzzz) right now would west still be getting this level of props.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

no, but my fave west production is easily the alicia keys so grain of salt

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

the seamlessness of that keys production is quite something.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

i heard it on the radio for about two months before i even found out it was "produced" in the hip-hop sense.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

christ it took seeing the video for me to figure out it wasn't thirty years old

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

everytime i check my messages i pray i'll get alicia pretending to be a waitress

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i've been to a lot of diner's in nyc and have never had a waitress who looks like alicia keys.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

lots of old fat greek ladies though.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

score!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I head a parody of the phone call bit the other day. Can't remember the source, but it was quite funny. (I was going to go into detail about it right here, but then I realized that there's probably five threads about it by now.)

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure why Sasha thinks Kanye's skits about college are "puzzling": I mean, surely he knows someone with a useless degree or two, right?

I think the productions on the "official" versions of CD are a little heavy-handed compared to the mix-tape ones; still, I can't hate on the violin.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think those college skits are terrible. especially with alot of urban kids these days being told the only way out of poverty is like basketball and shit and here you have a rapper whose gonna easily go platinum confirming those kid's suspicions that college is a big waste of time.

i can see the points about the bum degree thing, but when you look at the big picture it isnt very funny..

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Seems to me basketball-as-career-option gets its lumps, too -- look at the cover artwork!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 19 February 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Kanye's rapping, but I think it would only really fit with his production. He raps like a producer, I think, which may sound like an insult, but it's not, really. I just mean that his rapping is relatively simple in its verbal construction, but the way he lays it down (which is different from "flow" somehow, though I am not sure exactly how) is very integrated with the music. So, even where the lyrics themselves seem corny (and, with apologies to SFJ, some of the lyrics ARE corny by themselves), he manages to rescue them by the way he layers them with the music. In places, he is very sing-songy (slow jamz, Spaceship, e.g.), so that the rapping seems much more like just a part of the music. On other tracks he is actually rapping over himself (try singing along to "We Don't Care" and you'll see what I mean) in an effort to keep the lyrics integrated with the beat. He cares more about the way his lyrics sound than how clever he can be, it seems to me (though he can be awfully funny and clever as well, sometimes.)

Incidentally, I think this is also something Jay-Z does with great success, which is why I find myself enjoying his songs even while I can't help but laughing at how, well, corny some of his lyrics are. I'm not sure who a good example of the opposite kind of rapping would be. Maybe Talib Kweli, or Ghostface Killa or someone.

― Scott, Thursday, 19 February 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you mean rapping over himself? But yeah, I do agree that even when his lyrics aren't really happening or his flow seems simple, he has a great musical sense. His rhythm is tight and he uses pitch well (basically what I meant by phrasing above).

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 19 February 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, sorry, that wasn't very clear. Just that the end of some of his lines overlap the beginning of the next line, so that there is no way you could really do it live. I would pick an example, but I don't have the CD with me right now.

― Scott, Thursday, 19 February 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy: http://illmind.digitalmindframe.net/upload/keys/KeysTalk.mp3

― William Wiggins, Thursday, 19 February 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, gotcha.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 19 February 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I honestly can't understand anyone having a "zzzz" reaction to this album. Its quite mystifying to me.

― djdee2005, Friday, 20 February 2004 04:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"zzzz" is just the latest Trife-ism (and evidently, the latest Jess-ism), my reaction to which is "zzzz".

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 20 February 2004 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I just got it, and I really like it. But what happened to the song ft. Jay-Z and Saul Williams? Is it an earlier mix that didn't make it to the album? I saw it in a track listing posted here and I was kind of looking forward to it.

― Sym (shmuel), Friday, 20 February 2004 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...

http://www.parecords.com/hh6s/doubletrouble.jpg

― 24 hours with the King of Snake. (SNAKE!) (ex machina), Monday, 17 May 2004 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

my problems with the album:

the flaccid, light in the ass drums
the singing on every damn song - this isnt R&B!
the guests - never let u down is just about a kanye song, what with two jigglet verses and one pseudo-saul williams fuckerie
the skits

if these things werent so omnipresent, the album could have been better.

― thesplooge (thesplooge), Monday, 17 May 2004 09:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i am back to hating kanye i think

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 May 2004 09:44 (twenty-one years ago)

but he brought it on himself

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 May 2004 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

You're so self-conscious; pass that Versaysee, would ya?

Is it Kanye's corn you object to, Shulkie, or something else?

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 May 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

kanyes a good rapper, content wise, hes just not a good flower.

― thesplooge (thesplooge), Monday, 17 May 2004 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i am objecting mostly to his media persona, actually.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 May 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

also, he looks like puffy with water-retention.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 May 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

plus, yes, he has been revealed to be a bit a of a two-trick wonder this past year.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 May 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

what's all this 'ghostwriter' shit? corny indie fux, who cares who wrote it? it's based round collossal grate samples already! out of 22 tracks or whatever, of course not all that many were hittaz, but it was worth my £10.
i would say that it's gloopy, though, a bit one-texture.

― enrique, Monday, 17 May 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, there's the sped-up sample trick, and the ... um ... chipmunk cheek nut trick? Or is he turning other tricks?

For the record, I like / love / am stalking _College Dropout_ as an album, though I OD'd on the singles - local stations are playing the eff out of "All Falls Down" (gong that chorus!) and "Jesus Walks", and I could live w/out "Through the Wire" & "Slow Jamz" for a couple of years. On the non-album Kanye tip, there's "Overnight Celebrity" (luv luv luv luv luv) (for now) and the new Brandy track (also luv, especially Kanye's verse). I am 13 types of grateful ClearInfinity stoppped beating "U Don't Know My Name" into the ground. But, yeah, ubiquity's a bitch.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 17 May 2004 11:37 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a great 10-track album hiding inside of "The College Dropout."

OK,I just bought the record this past weekend so maybe it's too early to for me to cast judgment...but so far it's a big letdown for me, same way Freeway's debut failed to deliver on the greatness of itse singles last year.

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Monday, 17 May 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"All Falls Down" could be perfect without Kanye's rapping. Maybe all singing or another rapper, anything.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 17 May 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It's pleasant.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 17 May 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I still like it, though I haven't listened to it for awhile. I got a bit sick of Kanye as a rapper, but more odd is that he doesn't really hold the same appeal as a freelance producer for me as he did before TCD. Either I burned out on his sound or I liked him better before I knew him I guess (nb this will probably reverse completely when he produces his next Get By/Stand Up/Izzo etc.).

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 17 May 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Best song on College Dropout is "Never Let Me Down". I judge the tracks almost purely by their choruses. He'll never beat "Girls Girls Girls (Remix)" though.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I've definetely cooled on this album. It does seem sort of light-weight.

― Debito (Debito), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Still top 3 for me.
The only thing that really annoys me is the spoken-word artist on "Never.." boy does he take the wind out of that song.

― djdee2005, Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"all falls down"--i really wanted to like it more. his lyrics sort of repeat themselves a lot.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:25 (twenty-one years ago)

That's one of the songs where I like his rapping more than the production. Normally its the other way around.

btw I will stick up for "New Workout Plan" forever.

― djdee2005, Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:34 (twenty-one years ago)

damn, i really wanted to hate this album. oh wait, i still do. a decent ten track album? forget it, more like a four track EP at best. people have covered the good songs, but what about the really bad ones: "Two Words" is the tiredest of tired, yeah okay you can do a whole verse on two words, but try a little rhythmic variation! i'm surprised they don't nod off mid-verse. to say nothing of the histrionics, though i expect nothing less from Mos Def. i haven't been this grumpy because of a record since "Rock 'n' Roll". oh Brooklyn, so much to answer for.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:47 (twenty-one years ago)

OTOH i really like "New Work-Out Plan" and "Breathe In Breathe Out" because i find them really funny. bring on the indie-hop guilt!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"Two Words" is absolutely great! driving, and Mos and Free both come hard, never mind Kanye's "Two words, FUCKYOU PAYME."

― djdee2005, Tuesday, 18 May 2004 06:56 (twenty-one years ago)

A Goodfellas quotation ain't gonna save this sorry mess. You hear "driving", I hear a set of self-imposed constraints laying waste to the slight forward momentum the track had to begin with.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 07:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I find myself not going back to it much at all lately, but then again I did burn it the hell out the first two months of this year. Right now I'd say :

S - We Don't Care, All Falls Down, Jesus Walks, Slow Jamz, Two Words, Through the Wire, Family Business

D - Never Let Me Down, Breathe In Breathe Out, Last Call, all skits

Everything else pretty much in the middle.

― Josh Love (screamapillar), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Still a definite top 5 for me, but it's fallen from being my sure-fire #1 for most of the year.

― Josh Love (screamapillar), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 07:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha these are some of my favourite things about the album. J Ivy totally doesn't break up the flow of "Never Let Me Down", his verse is like that song's perfect climax! At first I was kinda ambivalent because Kanye is quite smug, but I've gotten over that now.

C: most of it but esp. "Never Let Me Down", "The New Workout Plan", "All Falls Down", "Jesus Walks", "Spaceship"

D: the skits, the way "Last Call" is far too long, and "Through The Wire" which is a bit boring

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

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