Pazz & Jop Tokenism

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Is it your point that this level of mentioning-Outkast-and-nothing-else is evidence of COLLECTIVE liberal guilt/racist marginalization/genre snobbishness/tokenism? This would certainly appear possible, even likely. But by identifying the specific critics you commit the logical fallacy of reasoning backwards deductively from a conclusion you've arrived at inductively. Is any SPECIFIC critic on this list guilty of tokenism? Prove it! Is it impossible for a specific critic to believe, sans tokenism, that the only hip-hop album among the year's ten best is S/TLB? Of course not.

Is it your point that these critics' lists "should" contain more than one rap/hip-hop album because several rap albums are self-evidently worthy of mention? Says who?

The only hip-hop albums I heard last year that would or might make, say, my top 20 are S/TLB, the Lyrics Born album, and the Dizzee Rascal album. "Hip-hop's corny now," sez Jay-Z, and I concur. Contemporary rap, like contemporary country music, is not an artistically robust genre, and won't be until a significant, smart and/or innovative, marginal, marginally popular, identifiably alt-rap-kinda subgenre emerges. (The Bay Area scene shows some promise on this front, but it's slim pickins at best.)

― Michael Vaughn, Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

That's nice.

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Wrong thread, but you did prove my point about a great deal of S/TLB fans retreating to that record while griping about how stagnant mainstream rap is.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The Bay Area scene shows some promise on this front, but it's slim pickins at best.

http://www.spoothe.com/2001/art/slim_pickens_bomb.jpg

"Time to drop DA BOMB."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The Bay Area scene shows some promise on this front

Yes, I hear there is an up-and-coming crew known as the "Hieroglyphics" that may very well begin to turn heads soon

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Contemporary rap, like contemporary country music, is not an artistically robust genre, and won't be until a significant, smart and/or innovative, marginal, marginally popular, identifiably alt-rap-kinda subgenre emerges. (The Bay Area scene shows some promise on this front, but it's slim pickins at best.)

Was there any time in the past 20 years that critics weren't saying this?

― Sym (shmuel), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"Rap is nothing, or not enough." Lester Bangs, ca. 1982

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"Rap is nothing, or not enough." Lester Bangs, ca. 1982

In 1982 that was more true than false. In 1989 it would've been laughably false. In 2004 the problem may be not that rap is nothing, but that it's exhausted, the province of dumbasses (the first 7,998,000) and pomo-damaged scenesters and jock-sniffers (the last "critical" couple thousand).

― Michael Vaughn, Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael, do you know of a song called "We're Famous"?

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm keeping their puppy styles in the Company Flow kennels
But since they had no identity from the start
They started to resent the scene when they couldn't become a part"

cf: the internet circa 1994, when it was still like a library 60% of whose books are about library science

or...
rock circa 1974, when all of a sudden every other rock song was about rock

Not that I have anything against self-referentialism. But I must be going...

― Michael Vaughn, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Rap is great right now. great mainstream and underground records are coming out all the time. If you're dissatisfied with hip hop right now you aren't looking hard enough or are deaf.

― joshd, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, I hear there is an up-and-coming crew known as the "Hieroglyphics" that may very well begin to turn heads soon

You haven't heard this brand new crew called Digital Underground!?

― djdee2005, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I was thinking of the line about "critics sayin' 'hip-hop's over'"...

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

country is great right now too. this dude is snoozing.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm afraid to ask what music he thinks IS interesting right now, if not hip hop.

― djdee2005, Saturday, 21 February 2004 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

at long last, an oasis of corny indie fuckitude on ILM. oh wait.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Sunday, 22 February 2004 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I found out last night that my stepmom got my Dad Speakerboxxx/The Love Below for Valentine's Day, cause he loves "Hey Ya!" (as do I). Haven't had a chance to ask him what he thinks of the other, um, 38 songs yet. Maybe he'll like the one with Norah Jones (his other present).

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, I hear there is an up-and-coming crew known as the "Hieroglyphics" that may very well begin to turn heads soon

You haven't heard this brand new crew called Digital Underground!?

Shit, that stuff is played out. Bay Area rap is all about this guy named Too Short now....He has this song called Freaky Tales that is reaaally dirrrty.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Dirtier than the World Class Wreckin' Cru?!

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Even dirtier than The Egyptian Lover!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, wait, World Class Wreckin' Cru are LA, right? I'm just trying to get the idea of non-NYC hip-hop straight, really.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Monday, 23 February 2004 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

yep..that was dre's old crew....egyptian lover was la too...I guess we got off topic....um let's bring it back to the bay....it's even dirtier than Bigg Ocean Mobb 415!!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 23 February 2004 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm afraid to ask what music he thinks IS interesting right now, if not hip hop."

Since you asked, youngster,--and assuming by "interesting" you mean "good--here is what my 2003 ballot would've looked like:

1) The Shins--Chutes Too Narrow (6)
2) Bonnie "Prince" Billy--Master and Everyone (113)
3) Kings of Leon--Youth and Young Manhood (26)
4) Cat Power--You Are Free (14)
5) Calexico--Feast of Wire (82)
6) Juana Molina--Segundo (91)
7) Lyrics Born--Later That Day... (45)
8) Ted Leo and the Pharmacists--Hearts of Oak (20)
9) Songs:Ohia--Magnolia Electric Company (110)
10) Jay Farrar--Terroir Blues (960)

()=Village Voice Pazz & Jop 2003 ranking

― Michael Vaughn, Monday, 23 February 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, that says it all I think.

― djdee2005, Monday, 23 February 2004 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe it's a good thing you didn't submit a ballot. Nine of those ten records would send me screaming from the building (the exception being Lyrics Born).

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I like 2, 4, and 5 quite a bit.

and WTF no Hail to the Thief WTF

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 23 February 2004 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

please take what I said earlier about corny indie fuckitude . . . and DOUBLE IT!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Since you asked, youngster,--and assuming by "interesting" you mean "good"

You're a clever young man.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

where the fuck is trife when you need him?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

omg lol!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

where the fuck is trife when you need him?

See those legs kicking in the air? That's him doubled up with laughter.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

see, you get what you ask for

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, Jay Farrar, man? try harder next year!

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha! I'm curious about that Jay Farrar album, his last one was a total sleeper. But he is the rock critic's wet dream, I understand the backlash.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"please take what I said earlier about corny indie fuckitude . . . and DOUBLE IT!"

corny indie fuckitude vs pomo-damaged scenesters and jock-sniffers: compare and contrast

"Ha! I'm curious about that Jay Farrar album, his last one was a total sleeper. But he is the rock critic's wet dream, I understand the backlash."

Actually, this album got crapped on by the critics. My opinion of his stuff has gone up from album to album, even as his critical reputation has fallen steadily since the (overrated) Son Volt days.

― yada yada yada, Monday, 23 February 2004 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

oh my god you still use the word POMO!?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

omg lol!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Nine of those ten records would send me screaming from the building..."

Shall I infer that this would be a bad thing?

― DJ Dubya, Monday, 23 February 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

best troll evah

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 23 February 2004 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Since you asked, youngster,--and assuming by "interesting" you mean "good"
You're a clever young man.

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), February 23rd, 2004.

I fucked up and left the close-quotes off the word "good," yet, miraculously, there they are in your quote. Good catch, Ned. Excellent proofreading.

― Michael Vaughn, Monday, 23 February 2004 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ILM now has its own walking and talking strawman, here with his unique rendtion of "If I Only Had a Brain".

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

what's his beef again? i fell asleep.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Something about quotation marks.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

god, i thought i was bored.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

please take what I said earlier about corny indie fuckitude . . . and DOUBLE IT!

LMAO!

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Tuesday, 24 February 2004 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I read this as "Jazz or Pop Tolkienism". As you were, gentlemen.

― Leonard Nimoy, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Would that mean we'd have to talk about Led Zeppelin?

― djdee2005, Tuesday, 24 February 2004 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I see that in another thread some of you are already busily dismissing the excellent Kanye West album as insufficiently, I dunno, hardcore or something.

Sheesh.

Let's see. Maybe your problem isn't that you like hip-hop, but that you like shitty hip-hop. My advice to the, eh, professional critics among y'all, which you shan't take, of course: Listen to whatever you enjoy, but consider another line of work (or, more accurately, find another hobby).

― MV, Thursday, 26 February 2004 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

worst use of y'all and shan't ever!

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 26 February 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

y'all shant fucketh with I

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Thursday, 26 February 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 60 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I've never heard that Groovebox comp, trife--never liked GR much as a label, healthy distrust of "themed" comps of all new material. but I love Pavement so I should probably hear that song at some point.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

also MV wouldn't you agree that your heart-on-sleeve maneuver is mitigated somewhat by your uber-snide addressing of the "youngster" your list was posted for?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

its a good comp!! my fav kind of indie is bouncy keyboard stuff of course but it also has some good rick wakeman-style moog fuckery and a depressing nick cave type song at the end that i remember liking too

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

btw im done w arguing w ppl for a while but this m.v. guy is hilarious so plz keep it up yall!!

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

$$,

are there any indie records that you like in particular? (just curious)

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

btw i meant that the comp is mostly bouncy keyb stuff which is my fav kind of indie

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

apples in stereo!!

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

$$ did you ever hear DeathbombArc's No Limit tribute? You might laugh, you might cry, I dunno.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

haha umm...

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

there's this indie tune called "Hey Ya" you might enjoy

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

MV -- you should have posted to the original thread, or at least read it, since there were plenty of people ON THE THREAD questioning both its validity and the act of listing the names ("the ILM sex-offenders registry"). This is really not as much of a self-congratulation society as you seem to think.

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i have a money mark album! wait, i actually don't know if it's on grand royal. it might be on matador or something. but i like it. the keyboard repair one. they were selling boxes of them at tower for a dollar a piece.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

also MV wouldn't you agree that your heart-on-sleeve maneuver is mitigated somewhat by your uber-snide addressing of the "youngster" your list was posted for?

Sure. And what does this mitigate, sonny?:

at long last, an oasis of corny indie fuckitude on ILM. oh wait.

― MV, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

shut up.

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course, the ubermitigator is that this is all just a bunch of shmucks typing. No real harm accrues. Pretty sure I'm not going to get a cap popped on my ass, or whatever you kids call it these days.

― MV, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

no really, shut up!

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Pretty sure I'm not going to get a cap popped on my ass, or whatever you kids call it these days.

no man, nowadays everyone's saying "wanna lead sandwich?"

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

You pronounce it 'sammich,' Matt.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oops! well, there goes all my street cred. : (

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Now, granted, I may not be "phat" enough to get "jiggy" with ILM but...

― $$, Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

you can get jiggy we with me anytime!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

in england apparently they're big on kicks in the nuts

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

A hamburger sammich w/french fried potatoes.

"Here, stab this into your pie!"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

ned, I really respect your gangsta.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i propose the phrase "five knuckle shuffle" be brought back RIGHT NOW

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

The ones in I Accuse My Parents were my role models.

"We're gonna talk like this, see?"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I like "put 'em to sleep". This one time I was at this ribs place in the ghetto and some guy was harassing me for change, and the proprietor chased the guy away, turned to me and said "don't worry, I got enough lead behind the counter to put 'em all to sleep"

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i propose the phrase "five knuckle shuffle" be brought back RIGHT NOW

I second the motion.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Is MV really Fred Mills? No, wait, I don't think he hates black people that much..

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

more rappers just need to slap each other. like big, fruity 19th century dandy slaps.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

haha brohemes i kiss you

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

they need to give each other licks like in rock scissors paper

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

and a little use of the word "umbrage" never hurt anyone.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

more rappers just need to slap each other. like big, fruity 19th century dandy slaps.

"You're going DOWN, soldier boy!"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

i always thought "getting wet" was creepy. as in blood. getting wetted. i don't know why. caps and gats never bothered me.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe cuz when i think about getting wet i usually don't think about being full of bullet holes i guess. yeah, that must be it.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i think of andrew wk

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

and all my fly honeys

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the name Michael Vaughn because it reminds me of that character on that show "Alias", the boring guy who Jennifer Garner pines after, the one who's married to that shady double agent

Yeah, Vaughn is supposed to be a goody-goody CIA agent, not a dopey Shins-loving mentalist.

Sark should have started this thread instead.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"Sydney, I cannot back you up on this mission to Budapest because I have to see Kings of Leon tonight."

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I interviewed the guy that plays Marshall once...he's very funny. Good buddies with Jack Black. very short.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Is his head as disproportionately big in real life as it seems on the show?

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, he does have a pretty big melon.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I have arrived at this thread late, it seems, but not so late that it didn't make me laugh my fuckin' ass off. Excelsior!

― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not trying to mitigate anything, daddy-o

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 27 February 2004 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

dig.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 27 February 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Y'know, Kings of Leon notwithstanding, his top 10 list isn't so bad. His posts, OTOH, are moronic.

― Sym (shmuel), Friday, 27 February 2004 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Wipes tear from eye. Total hilarity.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 27 February 2004 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Late to the game, sorry. Uh... John Cena calls his fistdrop the "Five Knuckle Shuffle". He's a white dude from Massachussetts, though, so we have a ways to go.

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 27 February 2004 03:16 (twenty-two years ago)

trife do you like Stereolab?

― Nate in ST.P (natedetritus), Friday, 27 February 2004 03:16 (twenty-two years ago)

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