Orange Juice: Classic Or Dud

'Rip it up' and the rest are very dull, although each album has a couple of decent tracks. Some of the 'African' influences brought in by the useless Zeke Manyike would make a dog laugh.

One of the worst albums I've EVER heard is Edwin Collins - 'Gorgeous George' which I bought on the strength of the excellent 'Girl Like You', the only decent track. I can't begin to describe the wretchedness of this album, so I won't try. Just avoid.

Anyway, Dud. Sorry, Tom.

Of course they did bash down the live set in two days, or something similar, for Ostrich Churchyard, so give that a listen if you've not already. I prefer it to You Can't Hide Your Love overall.

Now, Josef K, that's another story.

Next?

a) their fans are apparently legion; b) their fans are hyperbolic and given to wildly enthusiastic statements; c) the music itself usually seems unexceptionable, dull, a little ragged perhaps; d) the legions of hyperbolic fans are never willing or able to explain what is it that they love so about the records.

Now, asking fans why they like something can be a red herring, an unfair question. Love may be a thing that we can't fully explain to ourselves, let alone to others: and if we feel it sincerely and strongly, we may not want to bother trying to justify it to another, especially as - who knows? - we may feel our love slipping away from us in our inept bids at justification. So I sympathize with fans who don't want to explain why they're fans: perhaps they can see that there is no truly final vocabulary here, no ultimate justification beyond a passion which will do for now.

Still, I think that *some* kind or degree of 'description', if not explanation, might sometimes not be too much to ask. I have had the same problem with fans of the mysterious and difficult Go-Betweens. The Go-Betweens may or may not be the best band ever to walk the earth: but it is darned frustrating trying to get a G-Bs fan even to *begin* to tell you why. And my experience re. Orange Juice has been much the same.

Classic? Dud? I don't know. At the moment I'm unconvinced. Can somebody break their silence and put me to rights?

the al green cover is great!

As somebody who, since a teenager, has listened in awe to OJ in a vacuum (I have NEVER met anyone who is of the opinion they're even remotely good, let alone important), I am startled and pleased to hear of their legions of devoted fans. Not being alone feels good.

At the risk of coming over a bit NME: OJ were a real band - Sophisticated yet immature, artful yet artless, passionate yet objectively aware of their passion, emotional yet aloof. They seemed to know what they wanted to say and how to say it, and they delivered with a skill rarely seen (Teenage Fanclub are another example). More than anything, though, their musical style slotted exactly into place at the pinnacle of my taste universe. They were right for me. And clearly I am not alone here. If you don't get it, you never will, because OJ are simply not right for you. Move on.

After that they got better and better; Blue Boy was a thunderous piece of vinyl, Simply Thrilled Honey was tongue in cheek fun & Poor Old Soul....well words fail me.

Their live gigs showed that they had even more great material, Tender Object, You Old Eccentric, Upwards & Onwards. The album, when it came out was going to be the greatest thing on plastic. How could they fail? The Peel sessions continued the progression to greatness, good serviceable renderings of great tunes, superb new ones too like Dying Day.

What happened ? The first album came out & something was wrong. It had a shite cover to start with, 'what's this, dolphins ?' What happened to the campy, kitschy wee kilty scotsmen jiggin' about ? Something just wasn't right about the way the band sounded, sort of as if the life had been sucked out of them. Why do an old soul cover instead of V.G.'s 'Holiday Hymn' ? Big disappointment.

Things didn't get much better when half the band disappeared. How can it be OJ without James Kirk? C'mon!

By this point, promise was evaporating quickly.

Admittedly Edwyn Collins has gone on to have a very succesful career in the biz & bloody good luck to him, it can't be easy. Life goes on, but sometimes looking at the Postcard 45s a shiver of excitement runs down my spine ... it's night, summer 1981, the Kingston Bridge lights are twinkling on the Clyde, I take a deep breath of heady Scottish air. The world's at my feet.

Upwards & Onwards.

Last week, listening to this tape, I was thinking of posting and saying that maybe Orange Juice were not that bad after all. But today(the 'Blue Boy' one), no - no, they still sound as awful as ever. It is really strange, how bad they were.

Tracklisting:
Failing And Laughing
Moscow
Moscow Olympics
Blue Bay
Love Sick
Simply Thrilled Honey
Breakfast Time, Breakfast Time
Poor Old Soul (Part One)
Poor Old Soul (Part Two)
Louise Louise
Three Cheers
In A Nutshell
Satellite City
Consolation Prize
Holiday Hymn
Intuition Told Me Part One
Intuition Told Me Part Two
Wan Light
Dying Day
Texas Forever
Tender Object
Blokes On 45

Like Morrisey, Edwyn sometimes suffers abuse from types that don't like humour in music or more likely just don't listen.

OJ = Classic.

Perhaps the BBC were being difficult, or they reasoned that the other stuff was essentially duplication. Although the BBC "Falling & Laughing" is particularly fab innit.

What is Blokes on 45?

otherwise, YAAAY! total classique and one of my favorite bands ever.
and i'm not going to bother to say why, because i'd rather you continue to hate them and miss out on all the fun.

:)

20 years ago I'd have called OJ "classic," no questions asked. Haven't heard em since, but it's likely I'll be picking this up.

From memory the all time best pics were Edwyn in school uniform (where was that?) & that Rip it up cover - the layered striped t-shirts and raybans look was SO influential. By the eponymous third LP he does look startlingly unfetching on the cover. Recovered for the ep with Paul Quinn and then it was an almost Presleyesque drop down the hill...

It's been great to hear the postcard material all cleaned up and fresh. My old copy was on a very old tdk tape that was decidedly fluffy. Reasonable booklet pics but unlike the music poorly reproduced. No sign as yet of the zipper shoot he was rumoured to have done in 81.

As to underrated - more forgotten surely. Does anyone know if the Domino re-issue is going to prompt Polydor into action?

Incidentally the Fire Engines are getting the re-issue treatment in sept.

actually that's not a reissue but a collection of rare/unreleased live/outtakes type stuff. Very much looking forward to it!

I don't know those letters. But I pay attention to lots of things and do not necessarily thus look, sound or write like them -- lucky for them, you may say. If you tell me the names of those 45s you have in mind, then I will listen to them (if they're on the Glasgow School record) again.

Well, I don't think so.

Maybe in comparison to GWAR, but then...

I have just played 'Falling & Laughing', first track on Glasgow School, and I don't hear anything good in it. Very nondescript at best. It is hard to know why this title has gone down in history.

Next track is 'Moscow'. This seems better, more spirited and distinctive.

'Blue Boy' is also distinctive and has energy at least. Its lead guitar sound is adventurous and at least tries to burn it up. The song doesn't really do much for me, but it's probably one of the band's most creditable works.

None of these tracks so far sound at all like the Smiths.

Stop! Stop! They don't sound like the Smiths!

God! Unbearable.

Nor do 'Lovesick' or 'Simply Thrilled Honey' - which are again average, very humdrum indeed. I don't hear a lot of joy or inspiration here.

nb that even I don't think that you need to sound like the Smiths to be good; and I realize that the fact that OJ sound nothing like them doesn't mean that there is no broader, contextual or conceptual connection between the two acts.

I thought you might like the chords in STH, PF? There's a nice bit where the guitars sort of gently run away. Blue Boy has a bit of grit, which is good. Dying Day is good song - well put together and with a nice melodic progression, good guitar hook. I don't like Lovesick.

Thanks for your thoughts, Doc. 'Three Cheers For Our Side' is playing and sounds a dull, insipid mess that can barely drag itself off the floor.

We should have a FAP some time, Doc !!! The London School.

Doc, do you mean the instrumental at around 1:55 on 'STH'? That's a bit better than most of the rest of it, I suppose. But then it reaches the coda and all this dreadful stumbling drumming. Christ.

Yes probably around 1.55 - have left ipod at home, so can't check. Am in Londinium all the time now with new job - always up for ale. I've been thinking about trying to organize a FAP - maybe an XMas one. Let's get it on.

I've just realized, what may be obvious, this band is a lot more like The Associates than the acts mentioned above.

Sure we can manage a FAP before that doc! Yes we'll make it happen.

Totally agree about FAP and I live in Fulham now so there's no excuse really. Hopefully, British High Commission visa processing department willing, the missus will be here with me by Xmas (and even more hopefully in time for our first wedding anniversary in about a month's time) and we'll both be able to come.

Neither The Smiths nor Belle & Sebastian sound like Orange Juice

Smiths don't. B+S is more about the lisping limp-wristed fey Glaswegian indieboy twat persona that Edwyn bravely pioneered in the face of widespread hard rock/ punk rock ned-dom in the late 70s.

Dating from after the neds first started getting into punk rock, I'd say.

I agree, but that still doesn't mean B&S sound like OJ. But I realize that this wrangling over likenesses must seem tiresome.

Classic. By the way, always felt that the "Rip It Up" album is very underrated. The title track, "Turn Away", "I Can't Help Myself" or "Flesh Of My Flesh" are among OJ's finest work.

dunno if this has been mentioned on other threads, but ... :D
http://www.dominorecordco.us/usa/albums/19-08-10/coals-to-newcastle-boxset

if i didn't have the two 90s postcard discs i'd be all over that

I wonder if the live film is the one that cuts from stage to show Collins manning the production line in ... an Orange Juice factory!

Pretty sure it is: It got played (and videod by me) back in the day on C4.

I have the (deliberately?) lame guitar solo from Rip It Up stuck in my head on a loop. AHHHHHHH!

Which is a recreation of/homage to the solo in "Boredom" by the Buzzcocks, you know.

Anyway, I'm so looking forward to the box set. Sure, there's some dud tracks in there, but it's worth the price of admission in my book for "Texas Fever" and the Punk Club mix of "Rip it up." Yay.

The Postcard singles are essential. Get the Glasgow School compilation, ignore about 75% of their lps. The production on those records are so weird! Very stiff sounding, chintzy guitars, nasty use of kick drum. Barf.

"Chintzy guitars"? Pfft. I'm finding it hard to believe you are actually familiar with the albums. Two of them are 100% solid (1st one and Texas Fever) while The Orange Juice is excellent with a couple of lame tracks. Rip It Up is weak, I'll admit that.

Anyway, I'm so looking forward to the box set. Sure, there's some dud tracks in there, but it's worth the price of admission in my book for "Texas Fever" and the Punk Club mix of "Rip it up." Yay.

It's sad how much I am anticipating this.

Why's it sad? I wish I was psyched for the box, I love box sets! I have "The Glasgow School" and "The Esteemed Orange Juice" comp of later stuff and I've never felt the need for more.

yeah, still on the fence as to whether i *need* this ... and I love Orange Juice. Maybe once i see it in the store I'll be filled with a desire to own it.

It's sad because I am not really interested in much else music-wise this year.

got the box for my birthday. thx mom. sounds great/looks great. liner notes seem like they're a little annoying but oh well.

What's annoying about it?

oh they're just a little too clever for their own good.

Seems appropriate imo

belated happy fookin' b-day tylerw!
sorry for the ot

thank you thank you.
and yeah maybe too clever for their own good is the right tone for orange juice liner notes. no biggie, just a coupla eye rolling moments. important thing is that the music sounds awwwwwesome. went through a heavy OJ phase when I was in college, they really were an important band to me circa 1999. was even in a band that tried desperately to sound like them for a little while.

THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS: DIRS Edward Lovelace, James Hall. UK. In 2005, gifted Scottish musician Edwyn Collins suffered two devastating cerebral hemorrhages that left him with large gaps in his memory and trouble with the most basic language. This inventive film artfully puts the viewer inside Collins’ experience as he fights back from the brink of death. East Coast Premiere.

Has anyone seen this latest doc?

First I've heard of it but there was already a pretty good doc about this on the BBC, which is on youtube. Weird that there's another about the same subject.

I ended up getting the box from the label, one of the last they had. And damn glad I did, the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts! The debut album especially impressed me and overall I didn't really notice a drastic decline in quality across their work. It's a pity it's out of print so soon after being released.

There's no decline in quality. The debut is simply one of those perfect, flawless albums in every way. Rip It Up is the weakest (though it has I Can't Help Myself, Flesh of my Flest, A Million Pleading Faces & a couple of other good ones) then the final two are excellent.

Yeah I'd agree with that. The last album in particular is a great record. Rip It Up is one of the most disappointing second albums I can think of. A couple of great tracks but a massive drop off from such a perfect debut.

Yeah, the songs are really great on the final album and the guitars on the last two stand out for me. He is a very creative and clever guitarist which is something that's overlooked a little perhaps. So many effects and little details shooting off throughout every song in every direction. The songwriting + the guitars + the excellent and perfectly serious pop/rock beats are what make OJ so special in my opinion.

I mean there are some instances where they are really off the wall in terms of instrumentation, mixing and so on - eg. "Out for The Count" (the longer version especially) has such a weird mix and so many odd sounds flying around that it puts them in the same territory Associates. If it wasn't for the solid beat & bass it would sound just bizarre.

rip it up, the title track, is unstoppable though

Yep.

That movie doc THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS about Collins is showing near W. D.C. at the AFI Silver on the 19th & 20th

(apologies in advance for the multiple bump but...)

documentary is on film 4 (UK) this tuesday:
http://www.film4.com/reviews/2014/the-possibilities-are-endless

ta for the tip off ..
will set the machine for this.

yeah, thanks: would have missed this.

https://youtu.be/OUVHSSrn5wM?t=83

A double album comp of music by David McClymont is just out and from the tracks he has made available for preview, it sounds really great -

https://soundcloud.com/romanb77/sets/centuries-preview

Thanks! Hadn't seen this thread. Here's what I wrote about the worthy 2010 box in the Voice, which eventually started changing its links in a way that got me to start my own archive:
https://myvil.blogspot.com/2016/06/you-young-eccentric.html

OJ still rocks