"The band are" - Why is British grammar invading the US?

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Why have many U.S. writers started using the British style of using plural verbs with collective nouns? For example, in the U.S. we would say, Forcefield rocks. Not Forcefield rock. We would say, the band is goofy. Not the band are goofy. Freakzone sounds awesome. Not Freakzone sound awesome. It's basic A.P. style:

collective nouns -- In the United States, nouns such as team, Congress, committee and group take singular verbs, such as "is." These collective nouns also take the pronoun "it" instead of "they." So, if you're confused about whether a word such as "team" is an "it" or a "they," try making up a sentence using the word followed by "is" or "are." You wouldn't say "The team are playing well." Try this, instead: "The team is playing well. It may win this game." That's correct.

Sure, it's a pet peeve. But I'm curious why it's happening. Is it because ultimately everybody wants to write for MOJO?

― elvissinatra (elvissinatra), Thursday, 26 February 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

this is america, doowutchyalike.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i think you mean to ask, "why ARE british grammar invading the us?"

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 26 February 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Becuase of the number of The Definitearticles bands. It sounds stupid saying The Strokes is great. And even stupider when you talk about the group as individuals: "The Strokes is faux-arty rich-boys who would probably annoy you if you met them but happened to make a great debut album with some amazing singles then get really boring really quickly".

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Thursday, 26 February 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Jim joking? I can't tell.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

No, you don't say the Strokes is great. The Strokes are great. It's fine to treat actual bands as plural, but the use of the word band, group, trio, etc (ya know, the IDEA of a band) as singular, so long as yr consistent from sentence to sentence. This is a neverending battle in an editor's life. I hate it.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe it's because English people speak English better than any other kind of people in the world?

The clue is in the name...

― Stupid (Stupid), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Canadians get to pick and choose between US and UK spelling and usage, we're the slutty bixexual college girls in the porn movie that is the English Language.

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

British A-B-C Power

― Thea, Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember being flamed to death on another music board regarding the 'The Strokes is' / 'The Strokes are' argument. 'The Strokes is' just sounds horribly wrong to my ears.

― TomB (TomB), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

If the band name reflects a plural, the verb should be plural. The Strokes are sweaty. Phish stinks.

― elvissinatra (elvissinatra), Thursday, 26 February 2004 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

NO ONE SAYS 'THE STROKES IS'.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, maybe some mentalist who once misread a US style book, but really.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I find even 'Blur is' sounds weird, though. I can't get the four stupid faces out of my head. I think it's grammatical rulemaking gone mad.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Blur is a British band. They are a British band. The band is British. Daman and his pals are British.

― elvissinatra (elvissinatra), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I might well say 'the band is British'. It's 'Blur is British' that sounds bizarre.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Then you've been reading too much foreign press! Or wanna-be... I've notcied that even fucking Rolling Stone is doing it: Cracker Go "Country." What, did they get the editor of Maxim to take over or something? Oh yeah, that's right.

― elvissinatra (elvissinatra), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

They are a British band.

not to be all anal or anything, but if you're going to follow your own rules, that sentence is wrong. what you're trying to say is "it is a british band."

which doesn't sound very good and i can't imagine ever saying it, but your rules is your rules and you best be following them, young man!

more to the point, i want to know why the damn ny times insists on referring to ILM's favorite decade as "the 80's" instead of "the '80s."

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

They are members of a British band?

― elvissinatra (elvissinatra), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The NYT does that?

elvissinatra - I am English.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

meanwhile, former copy editor stephin merritt to thread please.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 26 February 2004 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

not only does the NYT does that, they (it?) charge (charges?) you a buck a day to notice it.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 26 February 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"No, you don't say the Strokes is great."

Of course not, because the Strokes are derivative shite. And you 'merkin's can't even spell shit like 'colour' and honour', and you put 'z's in where there are 's's, and your grammar sucks, y'all.

I do have commend the fact that a US billion is a thousand million, whereas the UK one is a million million. Which is retarded.

― Sasha (sgh), Friday, 27 February 2004 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading this has made me realise why I got 'no items found' in my search for LCD Soundsystem's "Daft Punk are playing at my house"

― winterland, Friday, 27 February 2004 09:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh goody someone else to ask who the Strokes are supposed to be copying!

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 27 February 2004 09:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I've notcied that even fucking Rolling Stone is doing it

Has Rolling Stone got a Brit editor BTW?!?! Don't think that should really make a difference, but...

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Friday, 27 February 2004 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading this has made me realise why I got 'no items found' in my search for LCD Soundsystem's "Daft Punk are playing at my house"

ha ha. This illustrates an intresting point, though. If Daft Punk were actually playing a set at my house, I would say that, with the 'were'. However, if I was just describing what was on my stereo, then I'd probably say 'Daft Punk's playing'. Because I am then using 'Daft Punk' to mean 'the music that Daft Punk make'. It's all about whether I am thinking of 'Daft Punk' as a couple of guys or as an item of music.

Last night I was thinking about this and wondered if it related to British cynicism about talent and fame. We say 'Blur are' because, hey, they're just four guys from Colchester. We are not going to afford them the respect of immediately allowing them the (exalted?) status of a singular entity just by virtue of their announcing that their name is 'Blur'. Americans are more giving, maybe.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Makes a change for it to be going that way. I've just had a conversation about using 'proved' instead of 'proven'.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 27 February 2004 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

and you put 'z's in where there are 's's

Ow, d00d, I was with you till that point. Z is Oxford spelling. It must be right.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 27 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

In Italian, bands are always plural. I Blur, i Suede, i Kula Shaker (these being the three bands I have seen play in Italy, hem hem). Gli Strokes, incidentally, for the s + consonant.

― Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 27 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Gli Strokes sounds kind of revolting.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Sometimes I worry that the 'Creed sucks' form is correct, and I don't want it to be, so I suppress the thought, because it's SO UGLY

― ferg (Ferg), Friday, 27 February 2004 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

A deputy business editor at The (London) Times told me that if one refers to a company - like, say, Vodaphone - the company is always singular. Always. "IT has raised ITS profits by such and such a percent."

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 27 February 2004 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

To generalise this a bit, the British are right on this, the Americans about 'honor' etc. and we're both correct about 'generalize'.

― mei (mei), Friday, 27 February 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It's 'Vodafone' - you'll never work in this town again.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I would probably say 'Vodafone has'. Maybe this has something to do with my being more deferential to corporations than indie bands.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm a stickler for traditional rules of grammar, which pretty much demand you say that vodaphone *is* and creed *is* and ILM *is* etc.

on the other hand, there's something to be said for writing the way people actually talk. and what's the last time you heard someone answer the question, "so what do you think of forcefield?" by saying "it rocks, dude!" what they'd actually say is, "they rock, dude!" (or, perhaps, "who the hell are forcefield?," but that's a different question for a different thread.)

most good newspaper writing finds a happy balance between the two -- traditional grammar and common street usage. ignore either side entirely and you're gonna get in trouble fast.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard Americans spell "truth" with an l and an i and an e and an s.

― Stupid (Stupid), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Next thing you know Americans will spell colour correctly. And maybe even cut down on the letter "z".

― ___ (___), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"A deputy business editor at The (London) Times told me that if one refers to a company - like, say, Vodaphone - the company is always singular. Always."

What if it's a partnership or a co-operative? What if it's Marks & Spencers?!?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"Marks & Spencer is blah blah blah."

That sounds okay.

― Stupid (Stupid), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

That sounds OK to me too.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The John Lewis Partnership....?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, the other way sounds rub. Point is, copy-editors use their discretion, and euphony often trumps strict grammar (grammar is a structure imposed on a language that exist in flux remember).

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 27 February 2004 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Still: "the government are," "the university are"? What justifies a plural verb for a collective noun? Because it contains many people? One doesn't say, "the bus are driving down the road," just because there are a lot of people in it!

In general, Brits seem to be a lot worse at grammar than Americans. Americans are taught English grammar throughout primary school; Brits seem to learn it only through learning a foreign language. Eh.

― C W (C W), Friday, 27 February 2004 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I like your bus joke. But you can see the difference, right?

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 27 February 2004 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately, yes. It just seems that any noun that could take "a" or "one" as a modifier shouldn't be allowed to associate with a plural verb form. That's coming from time spent in both educational systems.

Now: when ENRQ says "grammar is a structure imposed on a language that exist in flux," that was a typo, right? Should be: "a language that exists in flux." Or are we right back where we started?

― C W (C W), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

N. otm throughout this thread about grammar, but I wasn't joking in the first post. About either grammar or The Strokes.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

And Yanc3y is right about the use of the word 'band', 'trio' etc with singular. But, in terms of using words to get across some kind of meaning, 'are' sounds better: this is a group of individuals, doing things together.

Whcih is part of the reason it sounds better to switch to 'it' when you are listening to something via a stereo or whatever.

'It (ie the music coming atcha) is Daft Punk'.

'They (ie them dudes in the robot masks) are Daft Punk'

Contrary but ne'er mind.

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

J Zed to thread!

― mei (mei), Friday, 27 February 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I've been using "are" ever since reading the Melody Maker as a teenager, in order to be as pretentious as possible.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 27 February 2004 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

J-Zed is, Roc-A-Fella are.

― C W (C W), Friday, 27 February 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

and you put 'z's in where there are 's's

Like a lot of "Americanisms", this is a residue of the way English was written and spoken when America was first colonised/colonized - it's actually an older form of English than that generally used in Britain.

But while we're on the subject, my current pet hate which has been imported from the US and is now infesting the UK, is using "impact" as a verb - AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHH!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 29 February 2004 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

btw. do American copy editors also insist on 'a lot of white people is buying the Outkast album'?

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm gunna start a thread like this every day just for N..

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 29 February 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i heard people used to talk about music here

― tom west (thomp), Sunday, 29 February 2004 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, I can't find any threads at all.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

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