Jumping off the shoulders of giants : lyrical influences on Mark E. Smith?

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I was just listening to some early Fall and was struck anew how completely singular MES's lyrics seem, even after all this time. Maybe I'm just ignorant though, and just haven't heard (or read) his influences. I can't think of anyone else who ploughed such a unique lyrical furrow. How did he manage to pull off this trick, and can you think of anyone who rivals him in this respect?

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Walter Winchell seems like an influence

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

The gossip columnist? Please explain more.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

He also narrated the Untouchables TV show in the old days in a very similar voice to MES's less melodic numbers. Similar rushed style.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

that might be more a vocal influence though than a lyrical one. I don't remember any names but I seem to recall him implying most of his influences were literary.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, not that the sensibility is the sane, but beat poetry has to be a stylistic influence.

― no opinion, Sunday, 29 February 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Lyrical - H.P. Lovecraft. M.E.S. remarked that Manchester was like a Lovecraftian creation on more than one occasion, and there are countless songs about the strange inhabitants of grim northern villages.

Norman Mailer gets mentioned, and does C. Wilson (who wrote 'Ritual in the Dark')

― Sasha (sgh), Sunday, 29 February 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't 'The Fall' a Camus reference?

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Monday, 1 March 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

That's what I've always heard, but I don't hear much Camus in MES--someone will correct me I'm sure. (Of course one wouldn't expect lame literlist Camus lyric a la the Cure's "Killing an Arab".)

― no opinion, Monday, 1 March 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Jewing On A Motorbike

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 March 2004 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

meaning "Jew on a motorbike," meaning what exactly? Did Camus ride a motorcycle? This would be allusion, not influence, but all the same...

― no opinion, Monday, 1 March 2004 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

off the top of my head :
song "Dice Man" based on the book by Luke Rhinehart

'MR James be born be born
Yog-Soggoth rape me lord'
from "Spectre vs. Rector"
reference to HP Lovecraft & writer MR James

'Deer Park' - reference to book by Mailer?
Bend Sinister - book by Nabakov

blah blah

― zappi (joni), Monday, 1 March 2004 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

surely MES' favourite author (and presumably strong influence) is Wyndham Lewis?

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Monday, 1 March 2004 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I honestly don't think anyone else would know Robin!
Have you read 'The Apes of God'?

― pete s, Monday, 1 March 2004 01:25 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, no opinion, I was just making a lame pun. There's no connection between the "Jew On The Motorbike" line from "Garden" and Camus. I was just riffing on the Cure line.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 1 March 2004 01:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Pete - 10 years ago Taylor Parkes wrote that "that Lewis is Smith's favourite author has been well-documented". maybe Taylor had a different definition of "well-documented" to most of us?

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Monday, 1 March 2004 01:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah well my Fall knowledge is poor anyway. But yes unless Smith told someone that i doubt anyone would spot it.

― pete s, Monday, 1 March 2004 01:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you read 'The Apes of God'?

Errrrrrrrrr.... (raises hand).... I've read it. Wyndham Lewis is a big influence on MES but also Phillip K. Dick, H.P. Lovecraft, Arthur Machen. I would be most surprised if he hadn't dipped into Burroughs and Celine on occasion.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 1 March 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

.. Has anyone read "The Fall" ? I loved it (read it twice about 10 years ago) but when I finished it both times I still didn't really know what I had just read. Maybe I should try again, but three times just seems like too many. But I can see the MES material in it... cynical...

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 1 March 2004 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.ecamagazine.com/mainimages/98030925.jpg

secret Fall fan?

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Nb MES has broken his leg and cancelled the UK tour.

― ferg (Ferg), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

So no jumping off things for hi-

― ferg (Ferg), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

not again!

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, I get it. Duh. So he didn't break it then?

― I'm a loser! (Donna Brown), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, forGET it

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 1 March 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he said Peter Hammill of Van Der Graf Generator once.

― pastilla, Monday, 1 March 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah he really broke his leg according to the website, but the tour's been rescheduled for April so less gnashing and wailing from me.

― ferg (Ferg), Monday, 1 March 2004 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess the Searchers (c.f. "Needles and Pins-Ah") were some kind of influence ...

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Monday, 1 March 2004 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

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