Populism

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
This is a tough one, as I'm not quite sure what to ask exactly. I think I'd just like to see a lot of aspects about it discussed. Is it an insult or a compliment, when you call someone's tastes "populist"? How about when a critic is a populist?

A lot of people seem to have populist tastes, but dislike populist criticism (I'd say Rolling Stone have become pretty populist, which has garnered them a lot of disdain for losing their once counter-culture edge, but at the same time, who here likes "counter-culture" criticism? Pitchfork doesn't receive much love. (And yes, I will take into consideration that that also could be related to sub-par writing. Perhaps in both examples. But what would you like, is what I'm getting at.)

What artists are populist? Is that a positive or negative feature?

Hell discuss anything else on the topic you'd like, to boot.

David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a label subject to the tastes of the labeler. I gladly fly my populist flag, but someone who uses that word against me may be using it in a derogatory fashion.

edward o (edwardo), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 02:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I tend to think when someone is trying to become more populist, they are trying to appeal to as many people as possible. The results usually end up being more mainstream and homoegenized - the quirks and idiosyncrasies of a specific writer are gone. However, this isn't a problem with the mainstream record buyer - people would rather hear African music via an accessible record like Paul Simon's "Graceland" then the original music that inspired it. I dont particularly like populism, but I can see why so many people do.

What artists are populist? Oasis automatically springs to mind. I don't think I have heard a lyric from them that is not populist. "We are all part of the masterplan", "But you and I will never die / The world's still spinning around we don't know why" etc. Coldplay is pretty up there too.

Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

...should be used sparingly.

you will be shot (you will be shot), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess populism could = "mainstream" in some sense, but it also has the longstanding connotation of being anti-elitist (and, to the extent that the elite make up the Establishment, anti-Establishment). So you could equally make the argument that, say, the riot grrl scene was a populist scene. Likewise, populist criticism doesn't have to deal with "popular" artists or ideas, just engage them in a sort of of-the-people way -- in a direct and visceral way, rather than as high priests of hidden knowledge. I'm pretty sure Lester Bangs would have called himself a populist. Pauline Kael too.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a hard time seeing riot grrl as populist -- elitism is almost an essential feature of anti-establishment rhetoric, if that makes sense.

Populist is a very old-fashioned term that has probably lost all meaning because the interestests of the masses are too hard to generalize. Probably the best way to achieve something like populism w/r/t music writing is to completely ignore the idea of an "underground," like People or Entertainment Weekly.

Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 04:42 (twenty-two years ago)

It's especially difficult, because a lot of "popular" artists gain their popularity precisely by striking an "Anti-Establishment" or "Counter-culture" pose. Think about Avril's "punk" pose.

dieblucasdie (dieblucasdie), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

wtf! avril is so not punk! punk is for old people.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hot Topic" punk, shall we say then?

dieblucasdie (dieblucasdie), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 06:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Can't populist be a compliment like Bob Seger or something?

christhamrin (christhamrin), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 06:27 (twenty-two years ago)

elitism is almost an essential feature of anti-establishment rhetoric, if that makes sense.

How so? This sounds suspiciously like the standard Fox News shtick in which attacks on the elite Establishment are derided as "elitism" in an attempt to neuter their populist appeal (i.e. "Don't listen to these people trying to raise taxes on rich people; they're not like you, they drink fancy coffee!").

The political history of Populism is anti-elitist in a socio-economic sense. Ian MacKaye is a populist. Richard Marx is not.

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(Bob Seger is, sure. You can be both populist and popular.)

spittle (spittle), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

argh

m., Wednesday, 17 March 2004 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.beefheart.com/zigzag/pictures/MortonDeath1.jpg

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Doesn't populism appeal to mainstream values, though? I was thinking riot grrl didn't fit in that sense, in that that they were trying to challenge and realign the mainstream.

Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

To the extent that riot grrrl was DIY, I would consider it 'populist'. At least populist by any term that I would endorse. A lot of self-styled (self-flattering) 'populists' think that endorsing anything popular makes them anti-elitist. This is a neat way of avoiding any sort of power structure analysis.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

From the Raymond Williams book Keywords (via the web):

Popular was originally a legal and political term, from popularis, L-belonging to the people. An action popular, from C15, was a legal suit which it was open to anyone to begin. Popular estate and popular government, from C16, referred to a political system constituted or carried on by the whole people, but there was also the sense (cf. COMMON) of 'low' or 'base.' The transition to the predominant modern meaning of 'widely favored' or 'well-liked' is interesting in that it contains a strong element of setting out to gain favor, with a sense of calculation that has not quite disappeared but that is evident in a reinforced phrase like deliberately popular. Most of the men who have left records of the use of the word saw the matter from this point of view, downwards. There were neutral uses, such as Norths 'more popular, and desirous of the common peoples good will and favor' (1580) (where popular was still a term of policy rather than of condition), and evidently derogatory uses, such as Bacons 'a Noble-man of an ancient Family, but unquiet and popular' (1622). Popularity was defined in 1697, by Collier, as 'a courting the favor of the people by undue practices.' This use was probably reinforced by unfavorable applications: a neutral reference to 'popular... theams' (1573) is less characteristic than 'popular error' (1616) and 'popular sickenesse' (1603) or 'popular disease' (C17--C19), in which an unwelcome thing was merely widespread. A primary sense of 'widely favored' was clear by lC18; the sense of 'well-liked' is probably C19. A lC19 American magazine observed: 'they have come... to take popular quite gravely and sincerely as a synonym for good.' The shift in perspective is then evident. Popular was being seen from the point of view of the people rather than from those seeking favor or power from them. Yet the earlier sense has not died. Popular culture was not identified by the people but by others, and it still carries two older senses: inferior kinds of work (cf. popular literature, popular press as distinguished from quality press); and work deliberately setting out to win favor (popular journalism as distinguished from democratic journalism, or popular entertainment); as well as the more modern sense of well-liked by many people, with which of course, in many cases, the earlier senses overlap. The sense of popular culture as the culture actually made by people for themselves is different from all these. It relates, evidently, to Herders sense of Kultur des Volkes, lC18, but what came through in English as folk-culture (cf. FOLK) is distinguishable from recent senses of popular culture as contemporary as well as historical. The range of senses can be seen again in popularize, which until C19 was a political term, in the old sense, and then took on its special meaning of presenting knowledge in generally accessible ways. Its C19 uses were mainly favorable, and in C20 the favorable sense is still available, but there is also a strong sense of 'simplification, which in some circles is predominant.

Populism, in political discussion, embodies all these variations. In the USA the Populists (Peoples Party), from 1892, were in a radical alliance with labor organizations, though the relations between populism and socialism were complex. The sense of representing popular interests and values has survived, but is often overridden by either (a) right-wing criticism of this, as in demagogy, which has moved from 'leading the people to 'crude and simplifying agitation, or (b) left-wing criticism of rightist and fascist movements which exploit 'popular prejudices,' or of leftist movements which subordinate socialist ideas to popular (populist) assumptions and habits.

In mC2O popular song and popular art were characteristically shortened to pop, and the familiar range of senses, from unfavorable to favorable, gathered again around this. The shortening gave the word a lively informality but opened it, more easily, to a sense of the trivial. It is hard to say whether older senses of pop have become fused with this use: the common sense of a sudden lively movement, in many familiar and generally pleasing contexts, is certainly appropriate.

Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 17 March 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

See also:

Michael Kazin's "The Populist Persuasion: An American History"

Thomas Frank's "One Market Under God: Extreme Capitalism, Market Populism, and the End of Economic Democracy"

Alan Brinkley's "Voices of Protest : Huey Long, Father Coughlin, & the Great Depression"

Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 17 March 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

In other words, I seriously doubt Lester Bangs, Pauline Kael, and Ian MacKaye would have called themselves "populists" for the simple reason that it's a morally neutral, politically pliable term that could as easily apply to the KKK as to McDonald's.

Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 17 March 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

critics and populism

To me populist/ populism could reflect the artists/ albums that critics collectively rate.

Statistic Snapshot of Populism of music as favoured by critics. As indicated by Metacritic scores

Metacritic Music - index of albums ranked by score
http://www.metacritic.com/music/bests/

Top 100 [nearly all are from this decade, as Metacritic started in 2000]


1 How The West Was Won by Led Zeppelin 2003 97
2 Stankonia by OutKast 2000 95
3 HoboSapiens by John Cale 2003 93
4 Love And Theft by Bob Dylan 2001 92
5 World Without Tears by Lucinda Williams 2003 90
6 Elephant by White Stripes 2003 89
7 Songs For The Deaf by Queens Of The Stone Age 2002 89
8 Boy In Da Corner by Dizzee Rascal 2004 89
9 Speakerboxxx/The Love Below by OutKast 2003 89
10 The Meadowlands by The Wrens 2003 89
11 Is This It? by The Strokes 2001 89
12 Alice by Tom Waits 2002 89
13 Canto by Los Super Seven 2001 89
14 XTRMNTR by Primal Scream 2000 88
15 Dead Cities, Red Seas & Lost Ghosts by M83 2003 88
16 Original Pirate Material by The Streets 2002 88
17 Miss E... So Addictive by Missy Elliott 2001 88
18 Rounds by Four Tet 2003 88
19 Bachelor No. 2 (or, the last remains of the dodo) by Aimee Mann 2000 88
20 Since I Left You by The Avalanches 2001 88
21 Where Shall You Take Me by Damien Jurado 2003 88
22 Neon Golden by The Notwist 2003 88
23 Scissor Sisters by Scissor Sisters 2004 87
24 Yours, Mine & Ours by Pernice Brothers 2003 87
25 69 Love Songs by Magnetic Fields 1999 87
26 Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea by PJ Harvey 2000 87
27 Yankee Hotel Foxtrot by Wilco 2002 87
28 Kill The Moonlight by Spoon 2002 87
29 Wicked Grin by John Hammond 2001 87
30 Vespertine by Bjork 2001 86
31 White Blood Cells by White Stripes 2001 86
32 Up In Flames by Manitoba 2003 86
33 Leaves Turn Inside You by Unwound 2001 86
34 The Real New Fall L.P. (Formerly Country On The Click) by The Fall 2003 86
35 The Creek Drank The Cradle by Iron & Wine 2002 86
36 Remedy by Basement Jaxx 1999 86
37 The Argument by Fugazi 2001 86
38 Things We Lost In The Fire by Low 2001 85
39 Franz Ferdinand by Franz Ferdinand 2004 85
40 Decoration Day by Drive-By Truckers 2003 85
41 Cold House by Hood 2001 85
42 College Dropout by Kanye West 2004 85
43 Chutes Too Narrow by The Shins 2003 85
44 Phrenology by The Roots 2002 85
45 You Forgot It In People by Broken Social Scene 2003 85
46 Hearts Of Oak by Ted Leo & The Pharmacists 2003 85
47 Phantom Power by Super Furry Animals 2003 85
48 Seven Swans by Sufjan Stevens 2004 85
49 One Word Extinguisher by Prefuse 73 2003 85
50 Blues Dream by Bill Frisell 2001 85
51 The Blueprint by Jay-Z 2001 85
52 Fixed::Context [EP] by Labradford 2001 85
53 Time (The Revelator) by Gillian Welch 2001 85
54 Rings Around The World by Super Furry Animals 2002 85
55 Quicksand / Cradlesnakes by Califone 2003 84
56 Don't Give Up On Me by Solomon Burke 2002 84
57 Welcome Interstate Managers by Fountains Of Wayne 2003 84
58 Stumble Into Grace by Emmylou Harris 2003 84
59 Transcendental Blues by Steve Earle 2000 84
60 The Lemon Of Pink by The Books 2003 84
61 All Hands On The Bad One by Sleater-Kinney 2000 84
62 The Wind by Warren Zevon 2003 84
63 Feast of Wire by Calexico 2003 84
64 The Intercontinentals by Bill Frisell 2003 84
65 The Convincer by Nick Lowe 2001 84
66 Little Sparrow by Dolly Parton 2001 84
67 Ocean's Eleven [Soundtrack] by David Holmes 2001 84
68 OST by 24 Hour Party People 2002 84
69 Streetcore by Joe Strummer & The Mescaleros 2003 84
70 The Decline Of British Sea Power by British Sea Power 2003 84
71 Her Majesty The Decemberists by The Decemberists 2003 84
72 Holopaw by Holopaw 2003 83
73 Didn't It Rain by Songs: Ohia 2002 83
74 Pause by Four Tet 2001 83
75 Happy Songs For Happy People by Mogwai 2003 83
76 Hail To The Thief by Radiohead 2003 83
77 Source Tags & Codes by ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead 2002 83
78 Magnolia Electric Co. by Songs: Ohia 2003 83
79 Greatest Hits: The Evidence by Ice-T 2000 83
80 Ágætis Byrjun by Sigur Rós 2001 83
81 Transatlanticism by Death Cab For Cutie 2003 83
82 Run To Ruin by Nina Nastasia 2003 83
83 Dongs of Sevotion by Smog 2000 83
84 Mass Romantic by The New Pornographers 2000 83
85 Supermodified by Amon Tobin 2000 83
86 Singing Bones by The Handsome Family 2003 83
87 Mwng by Super Furry Animals 2000 83
88 Kish Kash by Basement Jaxx 2003 83
89 One Beat by Sleater-Kinney 2002 83
90 Fever To Tell by Yeah Yeah Yeahs 2003 83
91 The Last Broadcast by Doves 2002 83
92 The Ugly Organ by Cursive 2003 83
93 Play by Moby 1999 83
94 Geogaddi by Boards Of Canada 2002 83
95 Veni Vidi Vicious by The Hives 2002 83
96 The Earth Is Not A Cold Dead Place by Explosions In The Sky 2003 83
97 Indestructible by Rancid 2003 82
98 Bow Down to The Exit Sign by David Holmes 2000 82
99 The Evening Of My Best Day by Rickie Lee Jones 2003 82
100 5 by Town & Country 2003 82


also the very worst rated albums of the decade/ with at least 7 reviews in the metacritic database:

1170 Take A Look In The Mirror by Korn 2003 45
1171 More Than You Think You Are by matchbox twenty 2002 44
1172 Birds Of Pray by Live 2003 44
1173 Chocolate Starfish and the Hot Dog Flavored Water by Limp Bizkit 2000 44
1174 Other People's Songs by Erasure 2003 42
1175 Democrazy by Damon Albarn 2003 42
1176 Weird Revolution by Butthole Surfers 2001 41
1177 Winning Days by The Vines 2004 41
1178 14 Shades Of Grey by Staind 2003 40
1179 Forever by Spice Girls 2000 40
1180 Charmbracelet by Mariah Carey 2002 38
1181 Crown Royal by Run-D.M.C. 2001 38
1182 Liz Phair by Liz Phair 2003 38
1183 It Had to Be You... The Great American Songbook by Rod Stewart 2002 37
1184 Life On Display by Puddle Of Mudd 2003 37
1185 A Day Without Rain by Enya 2000 35
1186 Results May Vary by Limp Bizkit 2003 33
1187 Testify by Phil Collins 2002 31

DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 18 March 2004 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

but martian that reflects w/r/t/ what other critics think, not real people!!!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 18 March 2004 03:41 (twenty-two years ago)

stack 'em against the billboard charts i say.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 18 March 2004 03:41 (twenty-two years ago)

. . . and the one consist thing you will find is that no one liked that Damon Albarn album.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 18 March 2004 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, but "Liz Phair" >>>>> "Love And Theft". Just admit it.

edward o (edwardo), Thursday, 18 March 2004 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

For me this raise one, urgent, profound and utterly fundamental question: who are The Wrens and is their album The Meadowlands really that good?

Oh, and if we're looking for a measure of populism iro albums, wouldn't The 2000 Top 100 from 'Virgin All-Time Top 1000 Albums' by Colin Larkin (which is based on over 100,000 votes from the fans, the experts and the critics, most of the participants being from the UK and US. Published by London Bridge Mass Market, April 2000 be a better place to start than what is in effect (if my understanding's correct) basically a summary of critics' reviews?


Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 18 March 2004 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Or could it be that "populism" (at least as the expression is used in musical criticism) is all to do with concentrating on short-term popularity (and sales) rather than any of the things (like depth, resonance, innovativeness or quality, maybe?) that might make a record more memorable and durable and give it's appeal more longevity?

i.e. shouldn't we be looking at the types of record that sell huge numbers of records on release but which are conspicuous by thgeir absence from any of the "All Time Top [X] Albums" lists a few years later?

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 18 March 2004 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.