Is Indie relevant in 2001?

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Dunno if this has been brought up before, but reading the last article, it would appear that "indie" as in "guitar-driven selectively alternative pop-rock" is out of favour with a majority of music fans. Flashback to 1995 - Britpop is in full swing, the Evening Session is the most popular specialist radio show amongst 16-21 year olds, Blur vs Oasis, cups of sugary tea, The Bends is the best thing since sliced bread, being a cheeky mockney monkey is not attributed to irritating TV chefs etc. etc. Today, Melody Maker, Select and all the rest have gone out of business, leaving the NME to constantly proclaim lame-assed generic British bands with little ambition to be "the next big thing"... The national charts appear to have a commandment which decrees "thou shalt not have more than one indie band in thy charts at a time"... so first we had Oasis then Travis, then Coldplay, then Starsailor - the endurance of popularity dwindling with each one. Steve Lamacq appears to be living in his own little world where bands called things like Ferrant, Gay Pidgeon, Trollop - or whatever, are actually really great and exciting... hmmm... All the Indie kids from the mid-late nineties are now listening to either nu-metal, gotten into the dance scene, or like myself, gone onto Post-Rock and IDM or alternative Hip-Hop. They will swear against Indie as if it had done them wrong. Retro music has chnged too. Even the Beatles (who everyone was rediscovering during 94-97, have lost favour with the general public, being replaced by Motown, Soul, Disco, Funk and Reggae. Why, when there are these arguably groundbreaking new styles of music, would one want to listen to a bunch of pouting, shouting, treble-infused, hair-lips and skinny-t wearing mid 90's throwbacks who all seem to look like Bis? Obviously this is subjective - so is there a place for indie music in today's world? If no, has t gone forever, or will a fleet of top class guitar bands come and blow us away?

― dog latin, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A guitar is a wooden object with metallic bits on it that you plug in to make noises. Same as every other type, except some of them use plastic consoles with keys on them, or rubber mats, or whatever. If people keep conflating tools with products then the whole scene deserves to go down the drain, along with the rest of the decadent West.

― dave q, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

history of music = history of conflating tools with product

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

honestly people use computers to make music now.

― Mike Hanle y, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Nicky D put the meta-question a long time ago: 'Is indie a style of music?' - or is it something else? I think he was on the money.

I am reluctant to endorse any conflation of 'indie' with Britpop c.1994-1995. The latter was, I think, a culturally interesting and entertaining moment of crossover, contamination and confrontation, and deserves to be part of the history of Pop Eventz. I liked some of the records, too. But the story of what 'indie' means really leads you back to the mid or early 1980s. Whether 'indie' is an apt category for discussing pre-80s pop, or whether punk ultimately created indie, is a question I'm not quite sure about.

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

pinefox - but that is a different subject. I am talking about indie music today - not 20 years ago. I'm also not asking what indie is or where it comes from or what instrument gets used... When people talk about indie music - we all know what they generally mean - so for the sake of argument, i used britpop as the last truly popular bastion of indie incarnations.

― dog latin, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't agree that it's a different subject. The question 'where's indie [going] today?' does imply meta-questions like 'What is / was indie?' and 'How can we recognize it?'.

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Am I right in imagining that the term "indie" to describe music was an 80s thing? There was a time when there really were "independent" music labels and distributors -- was it the BPI they were independent from? what was it?

Major record labels in the 80s really weren't doing a lot of A&R with new bands (they had a format change, CD, to get money out of old artists instead) so the slack of discovering grass-roots new sounds was taken up by the independents.

Does this have any truth to it or is it just the usual romantic received truth?

I didn't think anyone used the term anymore, prefering the almost pointless word "alternative" instead. At the very least it means, non- mainstream, which indie stopped doing about the time of Stock, Aitken and Waterman climbing the NME's indie chart sometime around 1987

― Alan Trewartha, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

if the question is "is indie a useful thing to be defining today", then it may be more revealing to start from the settlement today and work back, rather than start yesterday and work forward (after all, the answer might be "NO: and what's more IT NEVER REALLY WAS and here's why", which the second process wd obscure)

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

SWA's rise proved (or if you like disproved it) a point abt the intrinsic aesthetic worth (or not) of a certain kind of ECONOMIC organisation. in terms of majors vs small labels it was indie as fuck; in terms of charting it was "mainstream", tho this in itself begs big questions. In terms of quality, Mel and Kim are better than anything Lamacq has ever championed.

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

>>> if the question is "is indie a useful thing to be defining today", then it may be more revealing to start from the settlement today and work back, rather than start yesterday and work forward (after all, the answer might be "NO: and what's more IT NEVER REALLY WAS and here's why", which the second process wd obscure)

This sounds characteristically clever and perverse, but I don't think I see why / how your direction gets us anywhere that the other direction doesn't, save perhaps that it is designed somehow to function to make all thoze boring misguided Indie ppl look silly and admit that you and SWA were rite all along ha ha wot fun.

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

swa are old therefore silly by defn

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

history = a rhetorical trick to prove nothing evah changes except gets worse

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

besides the tack you *yourself* take on the hang-on thread = pretty much exactly what i'm talking abt, you young humbug

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Eh??????

― the pinefox`, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bewilderment so great (!= grate) that I called myself the pinefox'.

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Indie is just a fucking buzzword so idiots can label the music they like and themselves,conversely. It's just a pointless label, like "dance", or "punk" or "goth", none of them have any use anymore.

― Ronan, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh, i didn't mean "hang on", did i, i meant the other indie thread

(tho i am now tempted from impure devilry to prove that yr revisionist reading on "hang on" of stones bassplaying = the now judging the then)

― mark s', Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

When were Blur and Oasis indie? My problem with this question is that the British term "Indie" is misleading, it basically meant these guitar pop bands (britpop or whatever), which actually came out of the whole Manchesters scene (which wasn't truly indie for long) and doesn't have that much to do with real indie music. Not that I don't like it, I think Blur are one of the best bands and the first Oasis album is a classic too. But there are and always will be a lot of great independent labels releasing truly independent music that is either 2 steps ahead or a few steps behind the mainstream. On the pop side, labels like matinee, shelflife, march, kindercore, k, 555, domino and a bunch of others in the US, UK and internationally are constantly releasing material of very high quality. Some of it is guitar oriented and some of it isn't. But anyway, to your original question, I'm sure there will come a day when guitar bands dominate again for a while.

Oh yeah, what exactly are "Post-Rock and IDM or alternative Hip-Hop", and you mentioned starsailor, are they any good? thanks

― g, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think it is becoming increasingly difficult to say indie equals guitar music. What self-respecting indie band doesn't have some bloke twiddling knobs on an oscillator these days? Y'know, High Llamas, Stereolab, SFA, Grandaddy etc. Either that or bands using a ensemble format where the guitar is simply one instrument amongst others i.e. Tindersticks, B&S, High Llamas again.

― Dan, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

okay, let me redefine a few things. Obviously there have been some controversies over the term "indie". The man the street (as opposed to true music enthusiasts) understands "indie" to mean guitar-pop - as in everything from Gay Dad to Blur to Stone Roses to MBV to Suede to Kenickie to Gorky's to Pavement etc. etc. This is what MOST people understand when i use the term "indie" i.e. beat guitar pop music that isn't loud or fast enough to be punk or metal - OKAY?! :-)

so, can i rephrase the question and replace the term "indie" with "guitar pop and stuff like that"? Ta. hope that sorted it out.

― dog latin, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

daniel: they're still indie (oops! guitar-pop) bands. All music evolves, but the songwriting style and rhythm remains the same... Bands have been using synths and studio-based stuff for decades.

― dog latin, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"All music evolves, but the songwriting style and rhythm remains the same..."

You have your answer there, don't you? Pinefox's also heh heh.

ps pf if i am so "clever" why do i think SWA stands for Stock Aitken and Waterman? Or is that the "perverse" bit?

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I thought SWA was one of those proto-grunge bands on SST records in the 80's? now that was indie

― g, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh yeah, what exactly are "Post-Rock and IDM or alternative Hip-Hop", and you mentioned starsailor, are they any good? thanks

i really wanna know

― g, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, are Boards of Canada indie or electronica?

The difficulty in drawing the line tends to prove the pointlessness of even having the line. Then again, it's impractical to say "it's all the same" or it's all "pop" or whatever.

The real problem is that the term "indie" is weighed down with so much negative cultural and musical baggage that no musician in their right mind wants to use the word to describe their own music.

What we need is a new word that essentially means "indie" but is neutral and doesn't automatically imply a load of hidden agendas and snobby attitudes.

― Dan, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't know whether it's relevant or not but clearly guitar pop is still there: Coldplay, Starsailor, Strokes, Travis, etc... are selling lots of albums at the moment.
Also agree with whoever said that nowadays indie is useless as a definition but is used by the general public to describe guitar music in general. Ever had one of those Britannia music club leaflets? Anything with guitars on it is 'indie'.

― Bill, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

so "toss" is out, then?

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ok, bill spoiled my not v.funny joke, so explain to me why eg "guitar pop" is no good...

― mark s, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Far be it from from me to introduce the American connotations of "indie."

But Dan is right -- the subset of music that "indie" listeners actually listen to extends from Boards of Canada to the White Stripes to Neu and plenty of other places as well. If you're asking after the fates of the particularly British pop indie guitar band (i.e., Travis, not, say, Clinic) -- well, there's obviously a slump there, and I don't anticipate the genre being revived for a few years at the very least.

Oh yeah, what exactly are "Post-Rock and IDM or alternative Hip- Hop", and you mentioned starsailor, are they any good? thanks

Grayson: consensus opinion here is that Starsailor suck. By post- rock, I think we all mean things like Tortoise or Pram; IDM = things like Mouse on Mars, Autechre, or Datachi; "alternative" hip-hop I'm assuming is either a reference to "undie" rap (Jurassic 5, Anti-Pop Consortium) or hip-hop related IDM-type stuff (Prefuse 73).

― Nitsuh, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Far be it from from me to introduce the American connotations of "indie."

Don't do it, Nitsuh! No! COME BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

thanks Nitsuh

starsailor haven't hit the US yet right? Just curious, I was into the whole Britpop thing in it's hey day, to an extent, but it has pretty much gone to shit. Travis and coldplay and stereophonics and all them do absolutely nothing for me (and for ex. the doves are just barely ok), it is pretty much like how bands like candlebox et al followed in the wake of nirvana. I still firmly believe in Blur, though. Anyway, i had heard starsailor were a bit more folky or something so I was basically wondering if they were anything like Mojave 3 or what. I guess I should seek out an mp3 or something.

Oh yeah, but what does "IDM" actually stand for? I can see it is a somewhat boring genre, but... ;-)

― g, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(most frequently asked question?)

Intelligent Dance Music

― m jemmeson, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I wanna mention Shack. They are indie that we are talking about here right? Loved their last album. What's up? Did they get dropped, go back on drugs etc.? Basically an amazing musical journey from the Pale Fountains to the Strands to Shack. All high quality.

― g, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

when tiny monroe reform then indie will be dominant. shack/pale fountains, ugh, what a load, but i do find the strands record delightful.

― keith, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

pinefox uses "z" for "s" in same thread twice shocker!!!!!

welp it's 9pm on friday i have finally finished up at work and suddenly, indie has no relevance. laterzzzzz

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 19 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

In response to the orignal post, indie to me died its death around the time of Ride 'play' its when whe term began to mean a specific marketing category in the 'yoof' market and was targetted as such. Idie in my estimation was the definition of mid to late 80's generally crap guitar based music put out on independantly owned labels eg sarah,factory,beggars banquet,too pure etc listened to by a buch of whining white middle class youths. Kevin shields of MBV and jason pierce spiritualized totally epitomise the look eg laundry crisis in the clothes dept and the look of having had their ice cream dropped in a pile of shit at the age of 5 and never ever recovering... so no indie is merely a marketing tool look at the shite it thinks it is travis....need i say more?

― el wanko, Saturday, 20 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

keith, gotta disagree with you on shack/pale fountains thing. I think the first PF record (Pacific Street) is quite good, maybe a bir disorganized, but there are a bunch of great songs there. I guess it is technically a "new-wave" record or something, but really showed a lot of 60's pop influences, Bacharach and all, probably was a bit ahead of it's time in 1984. It does suffer from a bit 80's proiduction techniques though. Their second album was probably supposed to make them sound a bit more conventional, and mostly a failure. As for shack, Zilch is great (no one has really heard it though), Waterpistol is decent, and the latest one really turned me on for a while. They all kind of sound the same though, the Strands album too, if it is a bit more chamber-pop sounding. At least we agree on that one. But, does anyone know what is up with them? I heard they got dropped but had an album almost done but had gone back on drugs or something.

― g, Monday, 22 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

eleven years pass...

If no, has t gone forever, or will a fleet of top class guitar bands come and blow us away?

― dog latin, Friday, 19 October 2001 01:00 (11 years ago)

― Nilmar Honorato da Silva, Monday, 5 August 2013 00:08 (twelve years ago)

Those questions bring us back to the beginning of our conversation. If I may answer quickly and perhaps somewhat vehemently, but from long reflection: Philosophy will not be able to bring about a direct change of the present state of the world. This is true not only of philosophy but of all merely human meditations and endeavors. Only a god can still save us. I think the only possibility of salvation left to us is to prepare readiness, through thinking and poetry, for the appearance of the god or for the absence of the god during the decline; so that we do not, simply put, die meaningless deaths, but that when we decline, we decline in the face of the absent god.

― Heidegger, Monday, 31 May 1976 01:00 (37 years ago)

― j., Monday, 5 August 2013 00:32 (twelve years ago)

― Treeship, Monday, 5 August 2013 00:32 (twelve years ago)

where is rolling indie thread 2013?? I need to ask a question about indie.

― dan138zig (Durrr Durrr Durrrrrr), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 06:40 (twelve years ago)

ask it here

― failed gravy (electricsound), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 06:51 (twelve years ago)

cool. anyone knows albums/songs similar to el perro del mar's change of heart and beach house's bloom? thank you in advance.

― dan138zig (Durrr Durrr Durrrrrr), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 07:55 (twelve years ago)

check out some recent stuff on labrador records

― failed gravy (electricsound), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 09:34 (twelve years ago)

The indiepop list, the indiepop list
So glad that you exist on the indiepop list
The indiepop list, the indiepop list
So check that you exist on the indiepop list

― sleepingbag, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 13:12 (twelve years ago)

These old threads are always good for a belly laugh.

― afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 13:22 (twelve years ago)

And ensuing depression... it's been 12 years?

― afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 13:22 (twelve years ago)

is 2001 relevant in indie?

― failed gravy (electricsound), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 22:29 (twelve years ago)

Life Without Buildings, so yes.

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 22:30 (twelve years ago)

check out some recent stuff on labrador records
― failed gravy (electricsound), Tuesday, August 6, 2013 9:34 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm afraid that would be too poppy.

― dan138zig (Durrr Durrr Durrrrrr), Wednesday, 7 August 2013 03:45 (twelve years ago)

Deliberating whether I'm still relevant in 2001

― Pingu Unchained (dog latin), Wednesday, 7 August 2013 06:58 (twelve years ago)

I would recommend you some Taken By Trees if you like your indie wistful and girly.

― boxedjoy, Wednesday, 7 August 2013 18:38 (twelve years ago)

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