Madvanilla's a bad flava (Pitchfork bashing here)

that is an idiotic sentiment.

Oh snap we've been out-gangsta'd.

(PS: Madvillian is the best album of the year)
(PPS: Instead of talking shit, can you NAME a more anticipated underground hip-hop release? Fantastic Damage is the only one I can think of that would come close, recently)

the trojan mix is half-assed but jackson picked good songs; i thought we said that! as far as anticipation of this release: i don't know man, sure, everything's relative, but that enough people were so desperate to get their hands on private madlib mixtapes (which is what the demos were, in reality), that the demos were heard by as many people as they were (a simple search on $L$K would reveal that a lot people had dl'ed them), and that the demos were just that, demos that took were sat on, and took so long to be finished, i'd say there was an unusual sort of anticipation for this record. are you not stateside? maybe that's the issue.

Since you're such an underground rap prodigy, let me in on the secret: what is a more anticipated underground (and yes, in my estimation, a record on an independant label with less than major distribution is underground, sorry I'm not reviewing like Genelec and Memphis Reigns or something) album this year? Or in the last four years? If you speak to any actual hip-hop heads (which I doubt), they probably can't name the last big long-awaited underground rap album.

The way you villify Madlib's style of beatmaking tells me not to take you very serious. Your whole criticism is weak to begin with. Scattered concepts? Expecting a completely linear from Doom or Madlib is like expecting you to come up with solid arguments: not likely. And what's wrong with the mix, exactly? I don't see what's wrong with it. And tell me how Madlib's beats are sloppy. I mean, surely considering you're like a train-jumping New York cypher slayer, you've got to have some idea of the internal workings of hip-hop production. Let me know why Jackson's loops and layers are shitty and lowly mixed and why RZA's (hypothetically) are considered classic by the hip-hop canon.

Your constant speak of me being suburban because I write rap reviews on an indie rock oriented site highlights your own insecurity. I'm inclined to think you're putting up a much bigger front than Madlib hypothetically is. You're just talking shit with no backup. Plus the whole "(PITCHFORK BASHING IN HERE, PLEASE BEFRIEND ME)" thing is a little more than awkward. There are real people out there that can supply you attention.

Ok, first: indie does not equal underground. I could see the argument if we were talking about those demos, but how much hype have MF Doom and Madlib received since they dropped? Only enough to make them two of the biggest names in hip-hop out there today. And I'm not going to bow to some call-out for me to one-up a bigger underground release- I'm not saying I'm a walking encyclopedia of hip-hop history above and below ground. What I'm saying is that for anyone who has ever picked up their hip-hop from a street vendor's mixtape as opposed to a retail store, Madvillain is not underground, neither of them, not at this point anyway. Yes, agreed, good songs were picked for the Trojan mix, but half you guys could have done the same thing and you know it. If you don't agree- fine, whatever. Maybe I heard wrong. Maybe Madlib had that whole catalog for like three days and had to bust ass to drop that mix. If that's the case, I got no problem admitting error with the facts. But I've heard different from the same sources that praise him, and it made no sense to me that nobody bothered to call him on the fact that what he did was kind of insulting to Trojan. As for the RZA vs. Madlib beats- at least the RZA is wholly original. I've yet to hear a Madlib production that I could recognize as entirely his own. My opinion, again, but I'd take a bet on that one. And as for my insecurity via my tagging the screed "Pitchfork bashing"- nope, I'm afraid you've got that wrong. I just did that because I heard you guys hang out on this site. That was just me inviting a little debate, instigating it with the 'burbs. Not my fault you went for the bait. I actually like Pitchfork sometimes (especially the guy that brought back "oh snap"), but sometimes the writing is more ego than review (but again, my opinion). Your taking such offense suggests maybe that you're the insecure one, but I'm not even going to say that, because I don't know you. I'm just saying that the Madvillain Pitchfork review doesn't hold up. What I'm not hearing is anyone saying why it does......

my bad

well i was implying that you were the threat, as he was likely fodder for your rather immense arsenal. i was urging him to get out before the blast. some of us don't have enough anecdotes left in the clip.

What?!? I can indentify a Madlib production from the first few bars usually.

Sure there are people less well-known than Madlib and MF, thereby making them---in your eyes--the "real underground" or some shit. But, um, when's the last time you saw either of them on BET or MTV or on your hip hop radio station?

that said the review was pretty on point. i just wish there'd been more discussion about just how the album's "forward looking" with the "roots" it stays close to. what i love about it is that it's basically a series of fragments (vs. full songs) that (despite Madlib's minimalist tack) keeps up the feeling of "sampled-ness" which has been totally contrived in most boom-bap since 1997 or so.

I donno about that. Nas and Gang Starr are both on major labels and get video play from MTV. I think tons of underground heads dig Doom and Madlib...I mean, anyone who remembers KMD would want to hear this album. If you ask pretty much anyone down w/ underground hip-hop about doom, they'll at least have an opinion about him, in my experience.

Hi! I like MadVillain! Hi! Does it sound like the King Gedorah? Hey! I'm spotting samples!

Use a chatroom...

can someone here do a madlib POX or something? he's done a shitload of productions that i haven't heard and i'd like someone to convince me otherwise.

madlib POX rollie, please!!

i get what you mean about Nas and Gang Starr, i guess the idea of an underground release being anticipated by underground heads doesn't seem all that impressive to me ... although i guess you're right on the latter point. now that i think of the ones i've talked to.

And the whole thing about Madlib not being recongnizable or wholly original is suspect. Regardless of whether or not you like him, Madlib is both one of the most original producers in the "underground" or elsewhere.

But you said "ever." I just think you're way off on this one.

This pretty much killed your argument. People can talk all the shit they want about Madlib, but he has an obvious, individual style. Chances are, you, underground hip hop genius, haven't really heard much of Madlib's work and are just dissing him about a good mark on this review and some demo he whipped up.

What I'm saying is that for anyone who has ever picked up their hip-hop from a street vendor's mixtape as opposed to a retail store

I go to Harlem frequently and pay for overpriced mixtapes. That doesn't make my opinion on the underground anymore important though.

Yea, no one cared when these guys put out: Dr. Octagon, El-P, Gravediggaz, Jedi Mind Tricks, Mr. Lif, MURS, Prince Paul presents, Beatnuts, Jeru The Damaja ...

I'm talking in recent years. El-P was the last underground album I saw major anticipation for in the underground. Dr. Octagon was not anticipated a lot before it dropped. Jedi Mind Tricks? Who can't wait to hear Vinnie Paz kill gay people? Mr. Lif is not someone that people wait for an album from, to be honest. I'm a fan but people aren't going to freak out when he drops some shit. Same with Murs. And since when are Jeru, Beatnuts, Gravediggaz and Prince Paul underground? They were near-gold selling artists in most cases, at one point. Fuck, I'm totally sick of the whole underground cred discussion anyway, just stating some opinions.

hey rollie did you mention the comic books just to assure pfor readers that dorkery was o.k. even if you liked hip hop or was there y'know, some sort of POINT?

It connects directly to the concept of the album, the review style and it was something to draw in the reader. You're grasping at straws. Is there a point to your constant antagonism?

madlib POX rollie, please!!

Quasimoto "Microphone Mathematics (Remix)"
Madlib "Stepping Into Tomorrow" (i know you didn't like the Blue Note stuff, but I love this song)
Jaylib "Champion Sound" (quite a raw beat)
Yesterday's New Quintet "Visions"
Lootpack "Questions" (one of his definitive beats, real stripped down)
Cappadonna "Slang Editorial (Madlib Remix)"
Beastie Boys "Shake Your Rump (Madlib Remix)"
Peanut Butter Wolf "Definition of Ill (Remix)"
Vast Aire "Look Ma No Hands"

How familiar are you with the Quasimoto record? Cause those are some of his strongest beats.

i also pay for cheap mixtapes in boston!

WHAT I'M SAYING IS, in Harlem, I find that the prices of mixtapes have raised over the years. From like $10 for 3 to like $20 for 3 in some spots. It's a crazy shift, that's why I say that.

vahid, I didn't put it on there because I assumed you already heard it. Madvillain is TOTALLY necessary:

"Raid"
"Meat Grinder"
"Figaro"
"ALL CAPS"
"Great Day"
"Supervillain Theme" (ridiculous beat)

love the cover design, though. very classy.

also mf doom not smooth and buttery enough to be french vanilla.

Let's talk about the record, bashing reviews is boring.

The record is great; I enjoy the way Madlib kind of apes doom's style without losing his distinctive sounds (yeah, madlib is distinctive). It's not immediately as catchy or upbeat as former doom efforts, but his flow is still hysterically great.

Or you can go to the other Madvillian thread and talk about the record there.

OR we could have a big party and write angry letters to pitchfork!

"horny"?

a reassessment of cher is playing right now eastvillaegradio.com

http://malibusmostwanted.warnerbros.com/assets/gallery/20.jpg

this is like everything that people make fun of undie rap for being.

It's kinda hard to talk about a Madlib aesthetic because he employs so many different styles, but here are my impressions of his hop productions: loop heavy - Madlib rarely chops his shit up, listen to him lifting the "Dharmatma Theme Music (sad)" for "Champion Sound" for an example - and I think that a lot of the appeal is context rather than technique (obviously), records like Quasimoto and Madvillain almost have this late-nite dial surfing quality and it seems that he functions in some nether region between a DJ and a producer where his incredible ear for samples is just as important as anything that he’s going to do with them individually, although he does get creative with what he choses to use and where he uses it (i.e., the percussive elements); his earlier stuff was more focused on traditional hip hop song structures and beat building, but with Quas he started to improvise more and employ looser jazz breaks, but then he moved way beyond that for the Jaylib and Madvillain records as far as the scope of what he samples; he has a generally uncluttered sound, although obviously not clean; on the Quasimoto and Madvillain albums esp., he has a lot of segue ways between songs and reuses similar spoken samples throughout to create this sort of self-contained world (ala RZA). Despite the ADD focus and lack of song structure, his albums have a narrative quality to them, really…there seems to be motifs that weave in and out of of the album and he’s working within these parameters that aren’t entirely evident at first, but emerge on repeated plays; I think that Sterling is right and that a lot of Madlib’s initial appeal is one of novelty and on a conceptual tip (like “oh shit, he’s doing what?”) but it’s both how well the novelties work and the slow/ hypnotic/ head-nodding quality of the beats that keeps bringing you back; I also think that it works to his advantage that his productions is often so “off” or sloppy…for one thing it gives off this really unselfconscious vibe that makes it seem kinda experimental and different without being pretentious or needless complex, and it also has a way of sticking in your head. Granted, it’s on a stoned sort of tip, and it’s probably not as social as Sterling would like it to be or as structured/polished as others would need, but I enjoy it.

And he’s also hella prolific – which I realize doesn’t count for that much, but when you release or produce like six albums in a years time (Blue Note, Trojan thing, Wildchild, Jaylib, Dudley Perkins, Madvillain) then its great if you’re a fan and doesn’t require so high of a batting average. And I will say this about the Trojan thing: it wasn’t anything special, but I’m glad that he released it and I have listened to it a few times (although more for just the songs than what Madlib does with them).

Sterling, I somehow doubt that Madlib even wrote “Shades of Tomorrow.” If you listen to every other song he's done, it just doesn’t sound like him, and if he did it was just as a homage to Sun Ra – who I guess was the prototype for indie emcees.