Thurston Moore on Cobain and the state of "underground rock" in the NYTimes

Thurston Moore would be the most embarassing father on Earth. I feel for his kids, hopefully he'll shuffle off into retirement before they hit their teens.

I also think it's nice that he kept the focus away from Cobain's personal problems, by and large. It's nice to read a piece about him without hearing what a poor unfortunate tortured soul the guy was. Unfortunately it's pretty obv Moore is no Hemingway. I sorta wonder why Kim (who was the much better journalist--judging from the old Art Threat mags I've seen anyway) didn't write it.

Thurston is obviously REALLY stretching things when he claims that Kurt/Nirvana was "imbued with avant-garde genius(!)"

He also claims that Kurt was "one of the finest rock voices ever heard." This is a platitude. It's like Thurston is talking about a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame type canon!

What is he talking about, one of the 100 finest? One of the 500 finest? One of the 5,000 finest?

This seems correct to me. Even if you don't agree with Moore about any particular scene or players.

We were in a Brooklyn basement full of artists and sound-poets gathered to watch musicians throw down extreme noise improvisation. One performer played records with two customized tone arms on his turntable; the discs broke and scratched, creating shards of hyperfractured beat play. He was followed by a quartet of young women scraping metal files across amplified coils mixed through junk electronics. I was to perform a spontaneous guitar/amp feedback piece with a stand-up bass player on loan from his teaching post at Berklee College of Music and a free jazz percussionist who had traversed through New York's downtown underground in the 60's. Not your typical night of alternative rock.

And I had a feeling this kid was looking for alternative rock. It was the year 2000. Kurt had died six years earlier, and through whatever fleeting friendship I had with him, this ethereal look-alike saw me as some connection.

Before being labeled alternative rock, Sonic Youth, the band I started in 1980 (and continue in still!), was called "post-punk." By the early 90's, we existed as a sort of big brother (and big sister) group to Kurt's generation of underground America. When Nirvana became popular, we were all called alternative rock — a less threatening term than anything with punk in the title (though with Green Day and Blink 182 in the late 90's, punk ultimately became accessible and extremely profitable — at least for the new MTV punks). The original alternative rock bands — Nirvana and Sonic Youth included — never had any allegiance to alternative rock. We all had come too far and through too much for any professional advice toward stylistic adjustment.

Kurt was not enamored with new traditionalism. He was more attached to the avant-garde rock of his hometown pals, the Melvins, who continue to stretch the parameters of what rock music can be. The traditional aspects of Nirvana's music — aspects that lent it accessibility — were expressed through Kurt as if they were experimental gestures. (The Beatles, also grand pop experimentalists, were loudly whispered by Nirvana as a primary influence, something unusual for punk devotees.) These elements were an important part of Nirvana's appeal. But what is transcendent about Kurt's art — what today, 10 years after his death, gives him rock immortality — was his voice and performance ability, both of which exuded otherworldly soulful beauty.

The initial popularity of alternative rock was in conflict with punk culture, which has a history of denouncing commercial success. Nirvana's second album, "Nevermind," along with the success of the Lollapalooza tours, changed the game. Both announced the discovery of an unaccounted-for demographic, cynical and amused by the pop rebellion displayed by new wave (Duran Duran) and hair-metal (Guns N' Roses). This newly discovered audience, one that surged well beyond the punk elite to the greater population of alienated and dislocated youth, was all at once represented by Kurt.

Kurt was aware of his sudden high profile and how it could be perceived as uncool in the punk scene. He made snotty comments about the fresh-minted alternative rock acts being touted by MTV. We all did. At the request of The New York Times, Nirvana's first record label, Seattle's Sub Pop, created a mock lexicon of "grunge" culture. Remarkably, the news media ran with it — to our disbelief and delight.

In the face of success, Kurt seemed to feel the need to maintain this stump position of punk rock credibility. Save the mainstream acceptance of the relatively straight-ahead pop of R.E.M. — which Kurt loved as much as hard-core thrash — there really was no model for such success from our community. He told Flipside, the iconic Los Angeles punk rock fanzine, that he hoped the next Nirvana album would vanquish their affiliation with the "lamestream." He recounted being taken aback by an audience member who grabbed him and advised him to, "Just go for it, man." I remember smiling at this, as it was how most of us felt. We didn't perceive Nirvana's status as lame. It was cool.

Nirvana made a point of touring with challenging groups like the Boredoms, the Butthole Surfers and the Meat Puppets and presenting them to a huge audience — one that was largely unaware of those bands' influence. But only the Meat Puppets would click a little bit. Without MTV or radio support, no one was likely to reach Nirvana's peak.

When Kurt died, a lot of the capitalized froth of alternative rock fizzled. Mainstream rock lost its kingpin group, an unlikely one imbued with avant-garde genius, and contemporary rock became harder and meaner, more aggressive and dumbed down and sexist. Rage and aggression were elements for Kurt to play with as an artist, but he was profoundly gentle and intelligent. He was sincere in his distaste for bullyboy music — always pronouncing his love for queer culture, feminism and the punk rock do-it-yourself ideal. Most people who adapt punk as a lifestyle represent these ideals, but with one of the finest rock voices ever heard, Kurt got to represent them to an attentive world. Whatever contact he made was really his most valued success.

You wouldn't know it now by looking at MTV, with its scorn-metal buffoons and Disney-damaged pop idols, but the underground scene Kurt came from is more creative and exciting than it's ever been. From radical pop to sensorial noise-action to the subterranean forays in drone-folk-psyche-improv, all the music Kurt adored is very much alive and being played by amazing artists he didn't live to see, artists who recognize Kurt as a significant and honorable muse.

The kid who looked like him sat next to me in the basement where we were playing and I knew he was going to ask me about Kurt. This happens a lot. What was Kurt like? Was he a good guy? Simple things. He asked me if I thought Kurt would've liked this total outsider music we were hearing. I laughed, realizing the kid was slightly bewildered by it all, and I answered emphatically, "Yeah, Kurt would have loved this."

Thurston Moore is a member of the band Sonic Youth.

Exactly. It just seems like a reaction to the hype, which for me is very disappointing. I don't listen to Nirvana much anymore but at one time I really thought they were brilliant.

I really can't stand questions which suppose an ILM group-mind about a certain band. If you want to know why a certain person dislikes a band, then ask. And there is plenty of hate/indifference for bands--Beatles, Stones, Nirvana, the Velvets blah blah blah--who are assumed by their fans to be universally loved ("they changed the WORLD, they were IMPORTANT! Remember!") That anyone would be remotely shocked that people don't like Nirvana (on ILM or anywhere) baffles me.

It's like all those damn "live coverage" things the local news does. They screwed up a few times, missed the boat on a big story, some other station or medium got the scoop, and they learned their lesson. Be there if it looks like it might be big.

In my opinion Nirvana was a pretty good band, who had a couple pretty good albums. I enjoy Bleach now and again, but it's nothing special. I just like yelling along in the car sometimes. Nevermind is pretty good, and I think In Utero is up there, like top 500, maybe. I don't blame them for their success or the exploitation of their music or the dual shams of that whole "grunge" thing, and the "Seattle scene". At the same time it's crap to say that Kurt hated being famous. From looking at it now, he fought hard to get there. But either way I could really care less. His compromise was his personality, personal life, etc. not his music.

As for Thurston: he's an idealist. It's funny (cute, sad, whatever) to see a man that old still talking like that, but in some ways I guess I'm kind of proud of him. He still has that excitement that I rarely get anymore.

Pipe down, gramps.

To be huge...but avant-huge.

Does anyone else find this as tasteless as someone singing the praises of cigarette smoking while eulogising someone who died of lung cancer?

also, I think what I meant was more that it's difficult to say something like "Nirvana meant a great, great deal to me when they were around, helped define certain things about myself that I hold dear to this day" because in a lot of ways saying that has become a cliche, and you're supposed to put up a front like, well, it didn't really, it was just a phase or something. I don't agree with the idea that saying that somehow, in any way, negates someone else not feeling the same way. I don't agree with the idea that other viewpoints and/or disinterest in that particular area of culture or music are "irrelevant," either--I think that's been clear in all my time of posting here. but it does bother me when the idea that "my passion for this wasn't mine alone and that's good" is turned around into "well, you're just a sheep like everybody else." (that's a general statement, not one specific to this thread, btw.)

Cigarettes don't kill, lung cancer kills.

Something which causes a cancer of the spirit or cancer of self worth (such as this Outsider-Fetishisation) is going to be as harmful to a person with depressive tendencies as a carcinogen is to a person with genetic predisposition to cancer.

This goes way beyond Nirvana... it is virtually a general law!

My brain's not working today. I don't understand, can you re-phrase?

And I suppose I could see the slow-dance value of "I Want to Know What Love Is".

Maybe some more to come in a bit. I think we both agree though that the main issue is that Cobain's voice doesn't really click with you.)

My problem w/thurston is he resorts to Nirvana memes just as much as the idiots on my college radio station's message board who are saying KURT KILT HAIR BANDS and asking WHERE WERE U WHEN KURT DIED? etc. Even if he tries to obscure them by repeatedly invoking THE AVANT GARDE. I don't expect him to be a good writer, but apparently he has shitty ideas as well (I already figured as much from this from listening to his records anyway).

I am going to need to sort out if chuck is just a good/convincing writer or if hair metal is worth my time (I always enjoy the songs I hear incidently except a Cinderella song I strongly disliked whose title I cannot recall and I am trying to find a path, any path, out of indie-hell).

But don't you see the disco-dance value of "Urgent" (feat Jr. Walker) too??? (And you can at least imagine dancing fast to "Round and Round" by Ratt or "Pour Some Sugar On Me" by Def Leppard, I hope...) (Actually, "Dirty White Boy" and "Headknocker" might be even better dance songs than "Urgent," though; I'll go back and check sometime.)

Patrick actually asks a pretty good question in his post above. If I had more time and energy, I'd probably formulate some long convoluted explanation about how "acting like you should be REALLY IMPRESSED" is shorthand for stuff bands DO, not for stuff they INTEND (and I'd say I usually outline said "do" specifics when I use that formulation anyway -- I mean, I'm talking about a Nirvana VIDEO, not a Nirvana INTERVIEW; I'm talking about the difference between looking labored and looking easy), but for all I know he's right to call me on what might be an internal contradiction & tick that balonifies my writing.

funny how these metal bands (or quasi metal bands) always seem to "come up" no matter the context

the video for "teen spirit" always seemed badly-shot and pointless to me, in some ways it marks the moment where my grand indifference to the tastes of my generation took root

Because "Home Sweet Home" is the least catchy power ballad in the history of the human race? Actually, that might not be true; I forget what it sounds like. But anyway, it's kinda the same as my Judas Priest problem, maybe: They just seem WISHY WASHY to me. Pop but not TOO pop, heavy but not TOO heavy, fun but not TOO fun, bouncy but not TOO bouncy, pretty but not TOO pretty. I just hear caution there that bugs me, I think. Don't connect with their early stuff at all, though I know lots of people with otherwise great taste who totally disagree with me about it. I actually prefer *Girls Girls Girls* and *Dr. Feelgood*, oddly enough. (I own *Decade of Decadence,* but it's a bit of a chore to get through.) At least they improved with time I guess.

Hm, I was sorta thinking along the lines of how you might find them too macho for glam (pace yer Poison comments, ie they weren't glam enough -- but then again you like Kiss, so I dunno, cause they pretty much WERE a chronological connection between Kiss and Poison).

Actually, thinking of Poison, Arthur and I spotted Rikki Rocket at the Sparks show the other night.

something about being "the most candyass cover ever recorded" or something?

Well "too macho for glam" IS kinda what I meant by not being pop or pretty enough, so I think you're right!!! And I DON'T like Kiss very much, at least beyond their first (as in only great) album and a few random singles here and there. They were too macho for glam, too! Thanks Ned! I will steal your answer the next time anybody asks me!!!

that's 'cause not even a nostalgic posturing reassessment strategy will get you past the fact that acts like foreigner and the eagles were in fact egregious perpetrators of the most horrid traxx ever. it might feel good to reify the banal, but it don't sound good, do it?

what, exactly, does this idiotic phrase have to do with anything that anybody has written or said on this thread (or anywhere else)?

yeah, isn't the Eagles greatest hits the best sellling album of all time in america?

MOP likes foreigner too...

Say something charitable about the Eagles.

eekies,
m.

Oh, and Chuck if you read this: The version of The Man Who Sold The World that Bowie did with Lulu in the 70's was pretty good. glammy, sleazebowie sax sound, etc.

Something else that hit me like a brick today was realizing that Boney M's "Nightflight To Venus" is just a re-working of Cozy Powell's "Dance With The Devil". I can't believe that passed me by. I'm really slow sometimes. Chuck-maybe you told me this or wrote about it before i can't remember. It felt like a revelation this morning for some reason.

I like all the versions of this song, but this one is probably my favorite.

i also don't like the guy's voice. and, i worry that some may slice and dice me for this, the lyrics--with the whole lazy extended metaphor thing--sort of embarrass me.

can't find a good place to put this, so this thread'll have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe427Kcz8E

context: http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/04/see_sonic_youths_thurston_moor.html

awesome

Hope everyone that pays for their kids to attend Partners & Spade’s Avant Garde Preschool series is cursed with their kids making noise racket through amplifiers day and night.

Seriously, little kids are the one group that does not need to be taught how to make noise -- they do it quite naturally!

Moore played a few noise pieces on his boombox (which he said he’d bought on Delancey Street thirty years ago) and implored kids to buy their own cassette decks. Listening to an iPod, he said, is like “listening to a cassette that has been left to bake in the sun.” My son loved the story about the days in New York when people were walking around and riding the subways with their boomboxes, sharing music and ideas.

LOL. This stuff belongs in the 'quiddities' thread. Aging hipsters with kids and money to burn.

http://www.hallockhill.net/post/513966489/moorepreschool

haha, this is some rose-tinted glasses shit here
riding the subways with their boomboxes, sharing music and ideas.

Im sure the 6-year-olds in attendance are really inspired by that.

http://www.tdbimg.com/files/2009/06/10/img-hp-main--conn-subway_14290063606.jpg
sharing music and ideas and then stabbing one another

lol yeah exactly

Moore read passages from Whittaker Chambers' Witness (which he said he’d bought on the Upper East Side thirty years ago) and implored kids to buy their own cassette decks. Listening to Barack Obama, he said, is like “listening to a cassette that has been left to bake in the sun.” My son loved the story about the days in New York when people were walking around and riding the subways with copies of The National Review, soaking in conservatism regnant.

hey kids, here's your first taste of Tinnitus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bRHKCcJW_Y

The more parents try to show their kids how cool noise is, the more the kid is just gonna want to listen to Paul McCartney and Abba records when they get to be teens.

I'm sure Geir's totally on-board with that strategy

the singing was really weak.

i'd suggest to them try out something new, try out a different singer for once.

they are horrible. and dumb.

in all likelihood, they were not forced to listen to the entire song, which is the real tragedy here. would've loved to hear their opinion of the last three fourths of the song

or give them the extended version from The Destroyed Room, which was, what, 25 minutes long?

rufus and cyrus dig the noize

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i3FrnAASFk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAXZoyAWLg

peanut butter! oh man, so great Scott

"now that was experimental music and we have no idea what it was called"

awwwww so cute

Listening to Barack Obama, he said, is like “listening to a cassette that has been left to bake in the sun.”

That is so profound.

lol that is so cute/awesome

I must bow down before the awesome that is Flaming Dragons of Middle Earth.....

they're the real fuckin deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI7pcrA52QI