Rock Minus Rhythm = bad?

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Chuck posted this on the now humongous Thurston Moore Nirvana memoir thread:

My Big Star point wasn't so much as diss as me theorizing that bands acting in the Nazareth (or Sweet/Slade glam) tradition were almost by definition more attuned to making their music danceable than bands acting in the tradition of Big Star's powerpop, which is what I think guys like the Replacements and Husker Du, and therefore Nirvana, were doing. Rhythm didn't MATTER as much to them. Which is bad!

Not to put Chuck on the spot, because he obviously is entitled to his vision of "rhythm" as it applies to rock music, and he's certainly entitled to believe whether that's a bad thing or not.

But this made me stop for a second and think: how much guitar-heavy music do I listen to that follows more in the former "dancey" category as opposed to the latter "rhythm doesn't matter" category..

And I couldn't really discern between the two camps to be honest. Of the golden age of early to mid 90s indie rock records that I have kept, I can argue that almost every song on every record has some sort of rhythm... just not anything so rooted in tradition, and not necessarily anything that was a big priority in the song, granted. I'm thinking more about stuff like Road Cone, Shrimper, Black Bean and Placenta, and stuff on labels like that... and sometimes the sloppiness, whether intended or not, has a charm that makes up for lack of a tradition root of rhythm. (Not to say all bands on those labels are sloppy by any means...). You could say the same about 4AD, actually. And many other labels.

That said, I certainly recognize and enjoy a lot of rock music that Chuck enjoys and mentions on this board too.

So, basically my question is (and dare I bring up how this all relates to *gulp* "rockism"): if you had to choose ONE and ONLY ONE ELEMENT of rock and roll/guitar-based music that you would say is the most perennial when it comes to your deciding that a song thereof is enjoyable to you, what element would it be?

(Of course, all the elements are important. This is supposed to be a hard question)

(Um, I hope I didn't lose everybody here.)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll say: rhythm.

I'm cheating in the sense that I define rhythm rather loosely. I generally hear rhythm in almost everything that keeps a steady drum pattern for at least four (or five or six or whatever the fuck the measure is) beats.

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

What are all the elements? (Rhythm, melody, what else?)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

* singing (believe it or not, there are people out there that put voice over all else, no matter what the music is, anti-Neds if you will)
* dynamics (soft/loud etc.)
* timbre/types of instruments used (synth based music? electric guitar based music? acoustic? "world" instruments? etc.)
* tempo (fast/slow)

surely there are others..

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

believe it or not, there are people out there that put voice over all else, no matter what the music is, anti-Neds if you will

I think this is a mischaracterization of my approach (an understandable one, though) -- it's not the VOICE which I am ignoring/deemphasizing, anything but, but rather the emphasis on lyrical content and 'meaning,' however defined. I think it's true that music for me will often carry a singer I'm not fond of if the music is good enough to my ears, but there are many different singers whose voice appeals to me on that instant, grabbing level, and which I would regard as essential to the success of a song.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll hesitantly add:

* mood (dark/creepy, bubblegum/happy, nervous, sad, etc.)

Hesitant, because people intepret the "mood" of a given music piece differently.

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, I was teasing you a bit. I understand, but you did remind me of one more element:

* the lyrics/words

As there are people who concentrate on one's singing voice, there are people who extensively concentrate on the WORDS of a song, and are all about deciphering and getting what they mean. Essentially, music is an extension of poetry to one, and one will immediately dismiss a lot of music -- possibly amazing to you and me -- just because the words just aren't profound enough, and don't have something to say.

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

(is it safe to say the latter category are the anti-Neds, Ned?)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I pick functionality?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

functionality? meaning...?

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Music that is created for particular occassions (dancing, making out, getting stoned, driving, etc.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)

is it safe to say the latter category are the anti-Neds, Ned?

Spot on, sir.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Music that is created for particular occassions (dancing, making out, getting stoned, driving, etc.)

Hmmmmm. are you talking about how you interpret the function of the music? Or the intent of the music makers? (Granted, it's possible to have both, but sometimes you think the know the intended function of a piece of music by somebody, and then you find out that wasn't his/her intention).

In any case, yeah, i gotcha.

* functionality (dancing, making out, getting stoned, driving, etc.)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:34 (twenty-one years ago)

uhh, *harmony?

i'm very geir-y, i find. there are a billion exceptions, but i like tension, and i like music that starts in one spot, steps sideways, and maybe comes back.

― g--ff (gcannon), Monday, 12 April 2004 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm actually going to go with structure. I have to like the structure of a song.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 12 April 2004 05:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the structure of "Wooly Bully," by the way. I'm not just talking about liking songs where the formal structure is elaborate, like "Rosalita" or something.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 12 April 2004 05:18 (twenty-one years ago)

While I personally think, that you can't really choose one element over the others, as they really have to work in unison, the thing that usually draws me in initially is the voice. It's probably in this order:

Voice
Lyrics
Melody
Rhythm

I think it's because I expect something different out of "rock." When I listen to funk or rap or anything electronic, the order is completely different.

― David Allen (David Allen), Monday, 12 April 2004 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Rhythm. This is why I listen to hardly any rock music.

(and the bands that I like do display a huge sense of groove...Spoon, Led Zep, etc.)

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 12 April 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

rhythm every time. i know it makes me sound like the reverse-geir, but it's true.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

You sound as if you're ashamed.

I'd go (adding an extra category)

Production
Rhythm
Melody
Voice
Lyrics

― Jedmond (Jedmond), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually the thing I most look for in rock music besides rhythm is the arrangement/orchestration of parts. Might as well take advantage of a form that's usually pre-written and tightly structured (and then there are the jam bands...).

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 12 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

If a band has a clockwork rhythm-section, it can cover up
a multitude of faults. If they can't play for shite, you had
better awe me with your amazing songwriting.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 12 April 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

And by clockwork I don't mean stiff and exact, I mean exactly
in sync.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 12 April 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

(My largely uninteresting hypothesis based on this question is, essentially, whether the answers to these question determine, pretty much, how easily certain people can discuss music with each other and agree on certain issues based on what people rank as the most important element of music... not even just rock/guitar music, which was the example for this thread)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 April 2004 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I vote rhythm.

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 13 April 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

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