Are The Fall the most overrated band in the history of music?

Although they're not relevant or interesting now, from about 1978 to 1990 they were bloody essential. Especially 'Live at the Witch Trials', 'Dragnet', 'Totales Turns' and 'Hex Enduction Hour'.

The early stuff is mainly fantastic, and the 'Brix- period' 1983-1990- ish nearly as good. Not at all overrated.

They steadily lost it after Brix joined and 90s Fall does nothing for me, but the 77-83 stuff is magnificent.

Your well-argued analysis makes good, balanced points for and against, and I for one, feel that your final judgement might have left some room for interpretation. But no, unless I've completely mis- understood your intentions, I think you're, on the whole, against the Fall.

That's settled then. Thanks for your contribution.

Off-topic side note: Every time Mark E is in a magazine, he looks like a disgruntled leper.

I am also not a big Marky Smith champeen after reading in "A Drink With Shane McGowan" about how he got drunk for an NME interview and started blathering about how he hated Pakis and thought Ireland should stay occupied by the Brits.

The Fall aren't a typical garage band. If you compare them to The Seeds, with Sky Saxon, who is a pretty weird figure and as a singer who definitely lends something to the music, nevertheless his words and so on are only an element - the music is good too - and it's often covered. How could you cover a song by The Fall? It's not exactly 'music.' So what is it? I'm not going to be the one to say that it's p - p -

Interesting that among all of the ILM'ers who have defended the Falls' importance, no one has dared to touch the race issue. Frankly, I'm not too surprised to hear that story about Smith. I've heard enough of his lyrics to note that racial signifiers seem to pop up in ways that are perhaps not surprising for someone of Smith's class background, but also not what could be considered completely free of the taint of racial prejudice.

can't handle the music though so i'd say yes they are one of the most ovverated bands.

Erm example please (I think this is bullshit btw, but there are a couple of LPs I don't own so maybe I missed something).

What MES says in interviews when drunk NOW (= read bitter, disappointed, angry, bloated w.rage at failed, unfulfilled ambitions etc etc) has pretty much zero bearing on the content (or value) of his records or songs back in the day.

I think I called MES an "artistic coward" (or similar) on a thread where I wz arguing with Momus about chartpop. That is pretty much what I think, that in the end he has settled for being surrounded and cossetted by a narrow crew of (indie?) yesmen - and that he is disgusted with himself for doing so, and bored and self-destructive...

From reading the article, I got the impression that most of the hippy- ish, leftist leanings in the early Fall came from the members who left. I'm not familiar with those particular "anti-racist" songs, and I would have to be a pretty amazing psychoanalyst to dissect Smith's motivations in making them. However well-intentioned those early songs may or may not have been, it's not hard to see that some of the later songs would certainly make me feel uncomfortable if I were black, Jewish, etc.

Well, it's not anything as obvious as "I hate blacks" or "I hate Jews", but it's just an impression that certain racial types seem to crop up regularly in less than favorable contexts in Smith's lyrics. For example, from "CnC-S Mithering" (Grotesque): "the upstairs Jewish girl damn hoovering every thirty minutes / from valium cig withdrawal." Or the refrain from "Garden" (Perverted By Language): "Jew on a motorbike", in the context of a song mocking the Christian resurrection myth. Or the line from "The Classical": "Where are the obligatory niggers?" Is it conclusive proof of racism? Not to my way of thinking, but it is enough to raise a few hackles.

1) "Dr. Buck's Letter" from The Unutterable - grooves in a different but altogether pleasing way, and includes the great line "my secretary writes my diary and i download it"

2) "My Ex-Classmate's Kids" from Are You Are Missing Winner - while i don't love the record itself, this song has a certain mojo. "on the cooking show?" jamie oliver reference? who knows.

I've seen Hanley playing with Ark and Tom Hingley's band The Lovers, and he's still a great musician (especially in tandem with brother Paul) but he doesn't make a great band on his own. Neither does MES, whose attempt to prove himself the sole point of The Fall has pretty much failed since '98 (especially with the latest extremely ordinary line-up).

On the racism issue, the song lyrics and MES interviews are so inconsistent I really don't have a clue what he thinks. I don't think a couple of drunken rants (that could well be MES fucking with the interviewer) and some lyrics taken out of context prove anything. You can find song lyrics and interview quotes that make him look strongly anti-racist and liberal, without reading his mind it's impossible to know what his real views are and how they've changed over time. I'm Jewish and I tend to be boringly PC, but the Fall have offended me very little over the past 25 years, while they've given me a hell of a lot of entertainment.

Definitely not overrated in my opinion.

From the way you describe them, though, they just might not be your thing.

No, the Doors are.

I recently found out that I live literally next door to where Hex Enduction Hour was recorded, which is really quite exciting for me because nothing in the history of anything else has ever happened round here.

so presumably you have used the same studio?

Or not?

In the sense that the British Isles are (sort of) next door to Iceland, I guess a lot of us can make this claim :)

uh?

Was recorded in several venues, wasn't it?