How about hip-hop?

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tell me about some modern, edgy stuff. Yes, everyone knows you're smart because you like dinosaurs like Public Enemy and the Sugar Hill Gang, and you're hip because you like (or at least pretend to) mainstream stuff like Jay-Z and Missy Elliot. But what do you really like? I'm talkin' about that underground shit.

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

does anyone care if i say 'fuck off' here?

― ethan, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Please do.

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Because you don't like the genre, or because it's a stupid question? Just wondering if I should take that one personal or not.

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i think the tone of your question might have something to do with it, dan

― fritz, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So I get a little sick of "It's so in it's in" and attempts to deify really bad old rap (remember how fucking annoying Flavor Flav was?). I don't think there's anything wrong with asking people to address the actual meat of the question instead of skipping coquettishly around it.

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I recently picked up the first three PM Dawn cds off of half.com for like fourteen bucks (w/ shipping) and they're so good it's unbelievable.

― dan, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There is no meat to this question, it's basically an indie kid coming on and trashing pop-rock or something.

― Ally, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oops, better hide the hornrims and messenger bag. Really though, I meant it a bit more innocently than that. I just noticed there wasn't a lot of hip-hop discussion going on (other than of the sort I've described above) and was wondering if anyone had any opinions. If you don't want to discuss hip-hop, that's fine; maybe I've misperceived the nature of what is considered appropriate to talk about around here, and for that I apologize. By the way, when I said "you" above, I was referring to the critical persona each of us (or not, seeing as how by now you've frightened me into being hesitant to put forth any solid opinion) has that differs from what we might really like. I certainly did not mean the ILM community (to the extent that one may or may not exist) or any ILM contributor in general. jeez.

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I just noticed there wasn't a lot of hip-hop discussion going on

It's there, my friend, you just need to look around in the archives and elsewhere more. But let's face it, you could have phrased your question much better. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

oh, sorry, my mistake, it wasn't your tone then. you honestly don't have a clue or any respect for anyone else's opinions. keep looking for that modern, edgy, underground shit!

― fritz, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay. The problem is, we do tend to talk about what we really like. At least I do. If you really want to broaden the discussion (and I hope you do, b/c you're quite right about the limited range covered on this board) anyway, why don't you tell us about some underground artists that have impressed you recently?

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I am going to try and rescue the discussion from snarkiness by mentioning that I recently picked up the Push Button Objects single with Del, Mr. Lif, and DJ Craze on it, and I think it's fantastic.

― Nitsuh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So much for civility. Go fuck your own self Fritz. Christ, this is what I get using the wrong adjectives. Stuff I've liked for some time: Beatnuts, Buck 65, the rest of Anticon (all of whom I've mentioned that I liked before), Prefuse 73 (whom I learned about here, and thank you for that), Atmosphere, much other stuff including the Wu- Tang Clan, Outkast and the Roots (so I'm capable of being a mainstream apologist too, 'kay?). I asked the question for a reason, which was that since I've moved back up north from the west coast I feel I've lost touch with hip-hop that I loved so much. I hesitate to equate the amount of Brits around here with sensitivity to protocol, but damn I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone.

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The problem, Dan, isn't your adjectives. It's that you came on a bit smug with the "everybody knows you're smart . . . everybody knows you're hip . . . " stuff. Your tone indicated that you were a self- satisfied prick, and people don't care for that. So now you know.

― dan, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Cannot stand 99% of the hip-hop that makes its way onto MTV (with the possible exception of the new DMX single, "Who We Be," despite its flagrant disregard for the King's English). Someone who is constantly attempting to get me onboard the hip-hop train played me the Anti-Pop Consortium recently, which I thought was interesting,....although not interesting enough to prompt me to actually seek it out and purchase. The last hip-hop album I think I actually bought was New Kingdom's PARADISE DON'T COME CHEAP (which had two great singles, "Mexico or Bust" and "Co-Pilot") and that was what? 1996? I miss the days when hip-hop seemed to be exploring more adventurous avenues (the Native Tongue stuff, Dream Warriors, Tribe Called Quest), but it's all yawnsome playa-bling-bling-whatever crap now (to my ears at least). Then again, I live and die by Killing Joke, so I'm invariably the wrong person to ask.

― Alex in NYC, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Alex in NYC liking a DMX song makes up for everything else in this thread.

― Tim, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's this guy named Kardinal Offishall who I think you'd like Alex. I've been talking about him for months to anyone who will listen.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

In comes Mr. Street Cred...

I swear by Edan, who's so obscure you can really only get his shit off of... Edan. Company Flow is legendary around here as are Non Phixon who's "I Shot Regan" never really made it out of the mixing stage -- finding the album is harder than all get out. The last Pharcyde album was great. Thirstin Howl is hilarious and Brooklyn Hard. Look out for The Last Emperor, the new Can Ox... uh... albums... Deltron 3030 is interspectacular... Handsome Boy, Quality Control...

if you want the new obscura, try undergroundhiphop.com for free fun.

And, to agree with the others, your question was worded shittily.

― JM, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Whatever you do, buy Cannibal Ox's 'The Cold Vein' on Def Jux records as soon as possible--it's awesome. Also, the new Aesop Rock record is pretty damned good--it's called 'Labor Days.'

I do think it's unfortunate that underground hip-hop is laughed at and ridculed so much on ILM; I'm reluctant to even bring it up, because I feel like a lot of you guys don't try to meet it on its terms or something. It's like it's completely expected that posters like Jay-Z, or at least acknowledge his genius, and posters feel like they have every right to take cheap (usually poorly supported) swipes at undie rap--"You like this because you think it gives you cred... you're trying to be a hipster by liking underground stuff... you like "meaningful" (snicker snicker) hip-hop instead of material- worshipping mainstream rap..." etc.--but as soon as someone like Dan makes a crack about pretending to like Jay-Z and Missy, you guys get all touchy. Jesus, I didn't find his post offensive at all.

― Clarke B., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Clarke, I thought the original was offensive, and as soon as I saw it I knew Ethan and Sterling would have something to say. ;) Look at the wording - "dinosaurs", "or at least pretend to"... the implication is that, on the basis of what people profess to like around here (or what Dan thinks they do), they don't actually or legitimately like hip-hop, which I think is obviously false.

― Josh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

so does anyone wanna make me mix tapes of recent(ish) hip hop? i haven't bought or even heard hardly any new stuff for ages either.

― duane, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, if I may anticipate a Tom-esque point (though I won't make two of them or do it in two paragraphs): often a reason that people dis underground hip-hop fans in that way is that they think that a lot of underground hip-hop is just boring, and think that because of that it makes more sense for them to say that people who claim to like it are actually doing so out of some sort of attempt to look hip or gain cred. This is not to say that these people are always right that underground hip-hop is boring, or that those who like it are actually doing so to get cred (whether it's boring hip-hop they listen to or not), or even that they do or don't get cred from doing so whether their motivation is to get it or not. But I think what I've pointed out is that not everyone who disses underground hip-hop fans is lacking musical reasons for it. (Some are.)

― Josh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

...the implication is that, on the basis of what people profess to like around here (or what Dan thinks they do), they don't actually or legitimately like hip-hop, which I think is obviously false.

I don't know if he was saying that, so much as he was suggesting that someone, having read through a lot of posts here, might pretend to like Jay-Z and stuff in order to earn ILM-cred. Which I think is funny, because I can totally imagine it.

Also, to me, saying undie rap is "boring" is hardly a musical criticism of it. It's more of an easy way out of forming a more coherent and communicable opinion of it. (See a thread I started earlier in which I expressed my disfavor over the indiscriminate use of the word "boring" in music discourse and criticism.)

― Clarke B., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't say it was a good criticism, just that people weren't making criticisms not at all based on music.

― Josh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I admit that there's a lot of smug BS floating around in undie circles, but some stuff really is cool and exciting. I guess I'm just bad at dealing with categorical dismissals.

I mean, unless they're of genres I fucking hate. ;-)

― Clarke B., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

into what mental insane loopy bonkers cosmos is the word "dinosaur" actually effectively offensive? it is always just now only stupid, since all agree dinosaurs = better than anything currently non-extinct (including hiphop, possibly)

― thunder lizard, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know if Talib Kweli is still considered underground, but I can't get enough.

I like Dalek's album a lot, though it could use a bit more 'meat' in certain ways.

Hiphop or not, I think a good portion of Saul William's album is brilliant.

The new Dilated Peoples is GRATE (whee, I've been waiting to use that lovely word for quite a while).

― Jordan, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You know... I don't really think there's some sort of ILM-peer pressure going on to make everybody go "The Blueprint? classic classic classic. Undie rap? forget that pseud crap!". True, there is somewhat of an absence of underground hip hop discussion (with the exception of Cannibal Ox), but I don't think its all about cheap dismissals. I don't think a lot of people here have the most thorough backgrounds in hip hop music and the indie-backlash and embrace of pop isn't so much reverse-snobbery as simple honesty. People here are generally quite individualistic and aren't afraid to express their idiosyncracies beyond the "ILM consensus" or whatever.

I hate Jay-Z = undie snob. I love Jay-Z = ILM elitist-wannabe. It's ridiculous... people will like/dislike what they will.

― Honda, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And to answer the original question...some of the underground shit I listen to: Atmosphere, Buck65, Quasimoto, Mr. Len's new album, Canox, AesopRock, Lif, Kool Keith, Dose-1, Peanut Butter Wolf, etc.

― Honda, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think a lot of people have expressed their difficulties with underground rap quite well, without needing to resort to non-musical arguments. The argument I see most, and which I usually agree with, is that too much undie rap lays highly literate but often unaffecting and bloodless raps (so many underground MCs write fantastic rhymes and then have no idea how to perform them) over music that a) is so obsessed with the "real" that it goes out of its way to be unexciting and uninventive; and b) thinks hip hop music begins with turntablism and ends with RZA.

There are obviously a lot of exceptions to this, and they're growing all the time. I think Cannibal Ox have been embraced around here because they go out of their way to break the rules I have stated above (charismatic and visceral performances courtesy of Vast Aire over music that is ultra-futuristic yet not at all escapist). The Anticon artists are also good in this regard, and while I've yet to hear anything that's thoroughly blown me away, I'm glad they're doing what they're doing. Tracer's OTM with Kardinal Offishall, and there's a lot of great UK hip hop at the moment that, as Tom pointed out a while back, works precisely because it is removed from the US's underground/overground divide (Roots Manuva, Skitz, Adam F, Aspects etc.).

― Tim, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I like Jay-Z and I like Peanut Butter Wolf. hey come on you guys, you would've all said you'd make me tapes by now if I was a girl!

― duane, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah make tapes for me instead.

― maryann, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, I'LL MAKE YOU A TAPE Maryann.

― Josh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd just like to emphasize again (so I'm not permanently universally loathed) that I really did not mean to be in any way offensive, or even smug with that question. If I could go back and rewrite it I would. Still, thanks very much for the leads. Also, how about The Coup's album. Is it significant apart from its original unfortunate cover art? Does politically motivated rap have any place in today's world of hip-hop? I would have said no until I heard some selections from the album, which I personally love. So the answer I guess must be yes... as long as you aren't Chuck D

― Dan I., Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

THANKS

― maryann, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Frank Kogan likes it...

― Josh, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, I really hate one thing about Chicago so far, which is I feel cut out of any but the most mainstream hip-hop scene (which is great and all, but...). The reason being that I am not personally clued into the scene, which I'm sure is vibrant, but then how do I know and also I don't know any radio shows which play mixes of quality local or less mainstream hip-hop. Also, I would like to point out that I find "undie" fairly useless right now [T. Kwali and such I somehow exempt even from the notion of unide] but a genuine local scene like there was in Oakland is a whole different story -- the stuff was at once not the hyper-stylized and limited selection that currently charts but also not "authenticity" and "weird" obsessed and thus posesses authenticity in the only true sense -- by and for a community. Anyway, I miss that.

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This must be the funniest thread I've read in ages on ILM.

I see Cannibal Ox being mentioned a lot. Quite deservedly so (and you know an act is getting maaaad love when it gets its own abbreviation).

But what I want to know is: UK hiphop (Big Dada, Wordlab) - Fresh undie or just pants? Sorry:-)

― Alacrán, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Skitz - "Countryman". Brilliant album, one of my favourites this year. I've not written about it nearly enough (there's a good write-up on Robin C's site though he zooms in on some very specific qualities).

― Tom, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Keep an eye on LEX records for UK hip-hop, they have some intriguing collaborations coming up.

― K-reg, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i like dj sven & mc miker g "holiday rap" and the fat boys were better than you might give them credit for. wu tang etc do not entertain me my life is grim enough without having to listen to their pissing & moaning.

― bob snoom, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ummm....why on earth would someone find Flavor Flav annoying?

anyway, my tuppence: J-Zone, Princess Superstar, MF Doom and KMD, Prefuse 73, CannOx, Mr. Lif, Mountain Brothers, 7L & Esoteric's singles, most of Eastern Conference's singles, Jerry Beeks, and so on

― rinsemusic, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

on a more serious note - my current faves ARE: kool keith (keith RULES!!) & clouddead.

― bobby snoomo, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Despite my well documented indifference/hostility towards hip-hop, I can't believe I'm actually contributing AGAIN to this thread. In any event, somewhat naively inspired by his rousing performance on the track "Diesel Power" off the Prodigy's FAT OF THE LAND disc, I picked up Kool Keith's DOCTOR OCTAGON disc (also encouraged by the "very metal" cover illustration by thrash deity, Pushead), and found the contents of said disc to be wildly perplexing (and not in a captivating way). I fear my ears aren't quite acclimated enough with the more free-form side of hip-hop to fully appreciate it. I do applaud Kool K's adventurousness, though. If I were to try again, which would the Kool Keith purists reccomend to a layperson?

― Alex in NYC, Sunday, 4 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the "dr doom" record is great in parts - fantastic production by k.matlin - a bit heavy going & samey all the way through - maybe not quite as much fun as "lost in space/ black elvis" - more commercial and no bad thing - w/ guest appearance by roger troutman. "spankmaster" has its moments - more stripped down - kinda spoilt where keith repeats some older ideas and gets a bee in his bonnet about outkast supposedly ripping his style "blacula" worth the entry fee at least. still far more intriguing than most out there tho. and definitely woth checking out is the analog brothers 5 which is kool keith & a bunch of his mates (including ice t) mucking about seeing how close they can get to keith's level of gibber while maintaining their own style, doing that '80s rap "crew" schtick, very funny, a tad throwaway, but musically good. i haven't heard "sex style" any advice from other ILM "peeps"????? oh - and does anyone know what's happened to new kingdom???

― bob snoom, Sunday, 4 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sex Style is really good. I believe it's the best Kool Keith record, not counting the stuff he's done under different aliases..

That new J-Zone album is pretty cool, new Dilated is rrrreally good, umm.. everything mentioned before, really.. anything involving Madlib is cool..

Most underground hip hop isn't half as smug as people make it out to be...

― Bobby D. Gray, Sunday, 4 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Good question! ("Whatever happened to New Kingdon?") They had great, stomping/sluggish beats with really gruff vocals. Well, I certainly dug it, anyway.

― Alex in NYC, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes, New Kingdom were damn great -- did they just have the two albums?

Found Kool Keith's _Matthew_ yesterday and picked it up on a whim as it was used, but haven't given it an ear yet.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...

I don't see Jurassic 5 listed anywhwere (besides someone who spoke of quality control), probably cause they don't really get considered underground anymore. I think they're good, especially live since they have 2 of the best hiphop dj's (cut chemist and nu-mark)

I really dig UK hiphop. Skitz - Countryman is a fine album, and a real good introduction to UK hiphop since almost every good mc contributes to the album. A real good compilation is called wordlab; you get some good tracks by the nextmen, ty, rodney p, life, skitz, mark b and blade etc.

Peanutbutter wolf's 'my vinyl weighs a ton' is a classic to me. I can't find his other shit though, unfortunately. If anyone wants to set up a cd-r trade, i'm available! (timwitte@wanadoo.nl)

― Tim Witte, Wednesday, 4 August 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

What does it mean to be UNDERGROUND?
It means you gotta be free to be UNDERGROUND
Yo, you got your own key when you're UNDERGROUND
If you're listening to me yo you UNDERGROUND

― KAY ARE ESS WON (nickalicious), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 13:19 (twenty-one years ago)

We could be happy underground

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

three years pass...

anybody got any good hip-hop recommendations? thanks :-)

― and what, Friday, 1 August 2008 17:13 (seventeen years ago)

I'm talkin' about that underground shit.

― some dude, Friday, 1 August 2008 17:13 (seventeen years ago)

If anyone wants to set up a cd-r trade, i'm available! (timwi✧✧✧@wana✧✧✧.n✧)

― am0n, Friday, 1 August 2008 17:15 (seventeen years ago)

lench mob is pretty good if you like hip hop

― M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 1 August 2008 17:43 (seventeen years ago)

I don't know if Talib Kweli is still considered underground, but I can't get enough.

I like Dalek's album a lot, though it could use a bit more 'meat' in certain ways.

Hiphop or not, I think a good portion of Saul William's album is brilliant.

The new Dilated Peoples is GRATE (whee, I've been waiting to use that lovely word for quite a while).

-- Jordan, Thursday, November 1, 2001 7:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

lol sup Jordan

― deej, Friday, 1 August 2008 17:45 (seventeen years ago)

Was that the Dilated album with "Worst Comes To Worst" on? Jordan OTM

― The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:35 (seventeen years ago)

Skitz - Countryman is a fine album

-- Tim Witte, Wednesday, 4 August 2004 14:05 (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

This as well. Still play the Riddla track on this time to time.

― The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:36 (seventeen years ago)

Real thugs skip coquettishly around it.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:38 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o51Ra8yhDOA

― am0n, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:39 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVducOr5-ww

― The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:41 (seventeen years ago)

The Nextmen are a critically acclaimed production/songwriting group consisting of Dom Search (aka Dominic Betmead) and Brad Baloo (aka Brad Ellis)

― am0n, Friday, 1 August 2008 20:42 (seventeen years ago)

lol 2001

― Jordan, Friday, 1 August 2008 21:06 (seventeen years ago)

a nerd rap odyssey

― deej, Friday, 1 August 2008 21:10 (seventeen years ago)

Oops, better hide the hornrims and messenger bag.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 August 2008 21:37 (seventeen years ago)

I swear by Edan, who's so obscure you can really only get his shit off of... Edan.

― The Reverend, Saturday, 2 August 2008 03:41 (seventeen years ago)

They had great, stomping/sluggish beats with really gruff vocals. Well, I certainly dug it, anyway.

News.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Saturday, 2 August 2008 05:14 (seventeen years ago)

ILM definitely nicer in the old days

― blueski, Saturday, 2 August 2008 12:28 (seventeen years ago)

ohhhh lord 2pac big please talk to this sucker cause they killing hip hop they taking the pain and struggle of life of hip hop the only thing we coulda express our minds and pain. and these suckers took it and made it look like garbage thats why we get judge so much cause these shit dont be making sence

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 2 August 2008 21:25 (seventeen years ago)

two months pass...

Cannot stand 99% of the hip-hop that makes its way onto MTV (with the possible exception of the new DMX single, "Who We Be," despite its flagrant disregard for the King's English).

― and what, Sunday, 19 October 2008 14:41 (seventeen years ago)

As flagrantly diregarding as referring to it as the "King's English" when there's a female monarch in charge of England?

― Carrie Bradshaw Layfield (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Sunday, 19 October 2008 14:44 (seventeen years ago)

Killing Joke had a full-time proofing editor to help them with their lyrics though, so I see where Alex is coming from.

― Carrie Bradshaw Layfield (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Sunday, 19 October 2008 14:44 (seventeen years ago)

tell me about some modern, edgy stuff

― ಥ﹏ಥ (cankles), Sunday, 19 October 2008 14:46 (seventeen years ago)

"Pump it Hottie" - Redhead Kingpin

Def Jeff

Bitches w/ Problemz

― Pillbox, Sunday, 19 October 2008 14:47 (seventeen years ago)

i heard the man akorn on the radio, the song i'm so paid. i like akorn

― michael, Sunday, 19 October 2008 15:03 (seventeen years ago)

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