RFI: American Indie Labels in the Late 70s/Early 80s

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I'm currently in an argument about the whether anything in the indie label scene in America matched that of Britain's, especially with regards to postpunk, new wave, no wave, 'art-rock', etc in the late 70s/early 80s. i'm thinking pre-1984. I can name a handful of American labels, but nothing matching the impact/scope of Rough Trade, Factory, and other big British indie labels during that time.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

SST, right? Their peak was post-84, but they certainly released a lot of influential stuff before then.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Late 70's no (I can only think of Bomp) but by the early 80s there was SST, Dischord, Twin Tone, IRS, etc. I don't know if any of this matches Rough Trade though. Rough Trade was just a monster at that time. They were releasing everything it seems like.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Wasn't Sire an indie at first?

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Weren't they basically an arm of Warner Brothers by the late 70s/early 80s though?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I was thinking of the the period around the first Ramones record, first Talking Heads record, etc.. But I guess that isn't late 70s, you're right.

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:03 (twenty-one years ago)

geeta, size matters.

england is the size of alabama. if the usa was that compact then there may have been a more coherent label to manage things. the usa underground was very regional at the time: SST (LA), Dischord (DC), Twin Tone (MN), etc.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, there's Ze. But no, nothing to compare to the labels you mentioned, Geeta.

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i know it was very regional at the time, but i'm more interested in the regions themselves -- how big were the regional scenes? could any of the regional scenes compare? and what about the wacky philosophies that labels like rough trade and factory espoused in the beginning? was there any equivalent in the US? i mean labels like dischord had their own wacky philosophies, but...

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

don't forget Slash, before they got bought.

― Kingfish Disraeli (Kingfish), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:31 (twenty-one years ago)

We need more of the LA area folks like Elvis T and Brad Laner and gygax et al to chime in about what was happening out here -- there's Slash, of course, but there's also whoever/whatever released stuff by Savage Republic and the Urinals and the whole LA Free Music Society crowd.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:36 (twenty-one years ago)

was homestead around in the early 80s or was that more a mid-to-late thing?

― the 'surface' 'noise' (electricsound), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:43 (twenty-one years ago)

more mid to late.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:47 (twenty-one years ago)

ralph?

― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Savage Republic was Independent Project Records--the best album covers in the business. That starts probably around '85. LAFMS is all DIY, goes way back.
Don't sell New Alliance short... DangerHouse is a bit earlier.
Lots of DIY cassette stuff in the early-mid 80s.

Ralph's a good one.

― no opinion, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

slash got bought out by warners right?

― ipsofacto (ipsofacto), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:49 (twenty-one years ago)

ralph

― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 04:49 (twenty-one years ago)

As for the Urinals, Happy Squid could not be called a scene even if they did release a good compilation. It was basically DIY:

http://www.happysquid.com/HSR%20site/fr_label.htm

If by Urinals you mean all the people they gigged with--BPeople, Human Hands, Johanna Went, Monitor, Nervous Gender etc.--LAFMS is a kind of nexus (see the Light Bulb Emergency double-cassette compilation, maybe 1980?) but there was no label that released all this stuff.

― no opinion, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 05:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm wondering what the whole presumption of having this argument in the first place is. To show that the UK was better than the US? If so, so what? If not, so what?

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

We could list 70s/80s american indie labels all day (99 in new york, Ace Of Hearts in Boston, Park Avenue in Seattle, Subterranian and Ralph in SF, Frontier and SST in LA, etc.), but to reiterate what gygax said above, the U.S.'s major cities are just far more spread apart than in England, so anything of a parallel to Rough Trade in the U.S. at the time would have been a miracle.

So, there may not have been a parallel. So what?

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

oh! i'm not saying that britain's scene was 'better' or anything -- the scenes were obv. more concentrated there because britain's so much smaller. but yeah, we could go on listing 70s/80s american indie labels all day! that's part of what this thread i started is for, so go for it.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 06:12 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, well um Touch & Go in Chicago (although I don't think the label started in Chicago)

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Wasn't Maximum Rock N' Roll a label at one time? Or has it always just been a magazine?

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 06:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Ork? Car(niverous)?

― harveyw (harveyw), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 06:21 (twenty-one years ago)

of course, Alternative Tentacles

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 06:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone mentioned Subterranean upthread--they had a pretty cool catalog and seem to have conceived of themselves in a Rough Trade-ish way, but of course they were nowhere near as big. If you read the liner notes for "Live at Target" (Flipper, Factrix, Nervous Gender et al.) it sounds like they were very much hoping to be a center for post-punk/no wave etc. Certainly less punk-focused than SST was at that time.

― no opinion, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 08:01 (twenty-one years ago)

no, Subterranean pretty much stuck to the Bay Area for it's releases and it's also always had an interest in industrial, or at least it did when the label was still active. Sub never really adjusted to the age of the Internet, which is a shame what with their excellent stock.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 08:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Jello's notes on the sleeve of 'Let Them Eat Jellybeans' centre quite a lot around the hugeness of the US, how difficult it makes any sort of nationwide communication and how comps of that nature were important building blocks etc.

Pretty much all the 80s US indies released bands from their city or state for the most part, didn't they? Whereas Rough Trade didn't (although Factory did)

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 08:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Touch & Go started in Detroit, as a fanzine. I don't think their first released record was until well after '81.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

although Albini's Ruthless label in Chicago was sorta seminal for that scene. And whatever label Effigies were on (I forget).

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:03 (twenty-one years ago)

The First Necros 7-inch e.p. on Touch & Go came out in 81. The album came out in 1983.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Posh Boy
Gulcher
Enigma
ROIR
Twin Tone

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

ah okay. But they weren't really a functioning label until '83-'84.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

But yeah, in the states their have always been a zillion regional labels that documented local bands. And bands that did the same (Hearthan, Clone, etc) for themselves. The U.S. has a very long DIY history.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Savage Republic was Independent Project Records--the best album covers in the business. That starts probably around '85.

Agreed on the quality of the covers, but SR was gigging and releasing before 1985 -- though on which label, exactly?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

But technically, the first Necros 7 inch was a dischord/T&G release, so....yeah, they didn't really get going till a little later.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Looking at the question again, did any of the above match the impact/scope of RT or Factory or other British indie labels at the time (as opposed to being the roots of something with greater later impact)?

I'm particularly interested in the 'scope' bit.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Hearthan (Pere Ubu's label, 1976-77)
Ork

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Red Star - was that indie?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Tragic Figures the first Savage Republic came out on Independent, didn't it? that was like 1982. I think it came out on another label too though. I remember a couple of different covers or variations on the cover. my memory is hazy.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Looking at the question again, did any of the above match the impact/scope of RT or Factory or other British indie labels at the time (as opposed to
being the roots of something with greater later impact)?

In terms of definable chart impact or higher profile sense of scene or...? Because there are many different ways to answer the question depending on how one considers 'scope.'

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Try trumping your English friends with Sugarhill Records, the popular proto-grime label.

Plus the cream of New York "art rock" -- Television, Blondie, Talking Heads, the Ramones, etc -- were all signed to Sire or Elektra and had real careers by the late '70s/ early '80s. So sorry, Felt.

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't the first dead kennedys single come out on Cherry Red first?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

a question appropos of nothing, really.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

If you are me you might say Pandisc and Jamarc too. If you are not me you might say, Hey, there was plenty of art-rock on Streetwise and Sleeping Bag!

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

ROIR could be a good one: they have released punk, no wave, dub reggae, industrial and even released a flamenco CD a few years ago (still going).

'could be'=> bcz I can't find out when they began.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bad Brains tape came out in 82.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

and that new york punk comp, when did that come out?

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

1982 I think

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that's what yr talking abt scott:

http://www.roir-usa.com/8244.htm

that flamenco CD:

http://www.roir-usa.com/8246.htm

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The US charts were more based on radio play than the UK ones then, as now - correct? I can't think of a breakthrough chart hit out of the punk scene (although Sugarhill is a different matter).

Dead Kennedys were on Fast Product in the UK first, then Cherry Red, and some no-mark label followed by Alternative Tentacles in the States

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:56 (twenty-one years ago)

1982 was quite a year! If you put all the little labels together you have really got something special. Then it all went to hell of course. Oops, i morphed into Jack Rabid for a second there.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't have a ROIR discography handy, but they let slip 8-Eyed Spy and Suicide cassettes in 1981.

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Scott Seward is right, Savage Republic's "Tragic Figures" is '82. It was on IPR exclusively at that time--there might have been another version later, maybe Nate STarkman & Son?

Yes, Subterranean was mostly Bay Area, but several articles archived on their web site argue for them as an impressive repository for the difficult and weird. More obscure than influential, of course. Industrial is there (Factrix, Cazazza, Z'ev) but it by no means dominates.
http://www.subterranean.org/main/subpress.html

― no opinion, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, Subterranean did release Flipper's albums originally... that certainly counts for something, if not a lot IMHO

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

do sense anti-flipper sentiment?

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

(btw, if anyone has that flamenc record and wants to trade)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

jack

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I mentioned Flipper because people seemed to be ribbing Subterranean as being "way too obscure, too industrial, etc." which implied to me "non-influential". And I consider Flipper very influential.. hence my comment.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

as usual i left out a word, my fingers not cooperating. guh.

i left out "i" between "do" and "sense" -- not that it matters -- just a tossed off wondering if you disliked flipper.

i will now return to my lair down the gopher hole.

i understand now. Sub was actually a pretty diverse label during its glory days. you are very correct.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

IRS was much more of a true Indie than Sire at the time, and probably as close to an American Rough Trade as there ever was, at least until the salad days of SST.

― briania, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

And db records had a pretty acrive roster circa '81, despite the two biggest bands in Athens being signed elsewhere -- comparable, maybe, to Factory making it happen in Manchester without the Fall, the Buzzococks or the Smiths.

― briania, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I meant either "active" or "acrid" -- you be the judge.

― briania, Tuesday, 11 May 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I really like much of Kevin Dunn's solo career and The Fans are underrated wanna-be Roxy US new wave innovators, the Cars and Explosions/Dangerous Goodbyes single is a classic. Of course that or something else of theirs was on Albion, as were the dBs(no relation to DB records).

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe not so much a label as a U.S. distributor, but PVC... they were the reason most Americans got to get their hands on records by Foetus, Swans, and Tones On Tail.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

as far as slightly more interesting and underrated goth bands, C'est La Mort from Baker, Louisiana.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

are we purposely leaving hip-hop labels off this list? 'cause profile and tommy boy, for example, were kinda huge. and factory records certainly owes a debt to the music they were putting out.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

* Moon Dog records, Scottsdale AZ (for that Billy Clone And The Same record alone)
* Earring records, Rochester NY (The Colorblind James Experience)
* (maybe this doesn't count as they were an Island offshoot, but Antilles released a lot of great jazz/no wave stuff, including No New York)
* Forced Exposure, Waltham, MA
* Dionysus records, Burbank CA (Geza-X and the Mommyheads)
* Mr. Brown Music And Tapes, Olympia WA (Steve Fisk, Beakers, John Foster)
* Engram Records And Tapes, Seattle WA (Fartz, the Pudz, various other bands featuring Bill Rieflin and members of the Fastbacks)
* Palace Of Light records, Seattle WA (Steve Fisk, Heidi Drucker, Customer Service)
* Seeland Records, Concord, CA at the time (Negativland)
* Up Another Octave Records And Tapes, Buena Park, CA in Orange County (Berlin, The Vectors, The Detours, Null, Nu Beams)

FCC, I guess so. Not to ignore your great point, but I guess the thread specifically talked about labels that directly put out "art rock" as opposed to release stuff that influenced it.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 11 May 2004 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Seems like there's some value in the context of this thread to distinguishing labels that released material by a number of acts from those created for one band only. I don't know most of the above, but I believe--correct me if I'm wrong--that Dionysus was Geza X only ("You Goddamn Kids!" only, even), and did Seeland do anything besides Negativland?

Wow, I just googled Geza X and found that "You Goddamn Kids!" was released on cd. And that Geza X produced Meredith Brooks' "Bitch."

― no opinion, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 04:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Not sure about Dionysus, but Seeland was pretty much just a label for Negativland releases until the early 90s, when they started releasing other folks like Silica Gel, Pantychrist, Tiny Tim(!), and the great Plunderphonics 69/96 box set.

But anyway, I think it's important to mention these labels especially to distinguish that there was even a smaller level of D.I.Y. happening, for people who didn't have any outlet, even within their underground music friends, at all.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 12 May 2004 05:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Good point--though in Negativland's case I'm guessing they could've hooked up with others (e.g. Subterranean) had they wanted to. Great first record, each cover different! (Flipper's "Sex Bomb" 7" on Subwrecks was like that too.) And it's hard to imagine that Geza X couldn't have gotten anyone--Slash, SST etc.--to release his album, given his connections. DIY could be sort of cool, didn't simply signify a lack of other options.

― no opinion, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 05:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Not to say this didn't happen in the UK of course. Crass records being a great example, although they were more successful in more quickly creating a commune of artists then the loners, Geza-X and Negativland.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 12 May 2004 07:14 (twenty-one years ago)

"IRS was much more of a true Indie than Sire at the time, and probably as close to an American Rough Trade as there ever was, at least until the salad days of SST."
IRS was affiliated w/A&M from the get-go, very similiar to Sire's relationship w/WB. Business-wise, IRS was never a "true indie" in terms of distribution, etc unlike Rough Trade, SST and others mentioned above. Aesthetically, well, IRS released a lot of crappy commercial "punk" alongside the Cramps, etc.

― lovebug starski, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

...not that my memory is COMPLETELY trustworthy...some of the earliest IRS releases like the Cramps EP and John Cale had a "true indie" DIY feel but I'm pretty sure they were distributed by a major.

― lovebug starski, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it just me or did everything on IRS just sound like shit, technically speaking? Vinyl. CDs. Sound quality always sounded muffled and quiet.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 12 May 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe this doesn't count as they were an Island offshoot, but Antilles

I wouldn't count this as an American indie, rather just an artsy offshoot of Island (Cut by the Slits was also on Antilles, and that, obviously, does not fit into AmerIndie at all).

IRS was affiliated w/A&M from the get-go, very similiar to Sire's relationship w/WB

Sire was more or less an indie until the late-1970s, weren't they? The early Ramones LPs and stuff like their Nuggets reissue (the only things I can verify first hand) had distribution through ABC, not Warner Bros.

Is it just me or did everything on IRS just sound like shit, technically speaking?

My copy of Live At the Witch Trials sounds fine.

― Vic Funk, Wednesday, 12 May 2004 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

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