...because fo Sound Quality....

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Lets build us a new shitlist, shall we?
Which albums out there suck because the sound is hissy / scratchy / muffled / over-trebled / crackly / vague / sounds like it was recorded underwater?

Examples: Metallica's ...and Justice for All suffers from hopelessly tinny mixing. It has no bass whatsoever, and each drums hit sounds like Lars is hitting a tin can with a bamboo stick.
The Rolling Stones Exile on Main Street comes out of your speakers sounding like your listening to it through the wall of a whorehouse.

Lord Custos, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If you want to piss over "lo fi" bands who do shit like this on purpose, thats perfectly okay as well.
(If someone had warned me, I wouldn't have wasted six bucks on that cruddy Pavement record.)

Lord Custos, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Royal Astronomy- ยต-ziq... Digital Distortion, the world's worst General Midi bank and a big big need for quantizing...

Mr Deft, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tony Williams' Lifetime, Emergency!

dleone, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(knee-jerk response) The Strokes.

EdwardO, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

'Another Green World', and I usually LIKE the murky sound.

dave q, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

'Ziggy Stardust'. And I usually LIKE things that are thin and trebly, but this makes Tiny Tim sound like the Melvins.

dave q, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Lord Custos, you've convinced me to give those two records a listen. There just isn't enough hopelessly tinny in the world.

Billy Dods, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like albums that sound like someone recorded them underwater. Damn you all!

Kodanshi, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

AC/DC should get some kind of award for the cutlery-down-garbage- disposal sounds they got after Mutt Lange defected to Def Leppard. 'Fly on the Wall' (self-produced) replaced the guitars with cattleprods with low batteries, 'Blow Up Your Video' (Vanda & Young) gives you that I've-just-eaten-500-hot-dogs feeling, and 'Ballbreaker' (Rick Rubin!!!), in which the mixing desk seems to have contracted arthritis off the group members. Incidentally, these records also have the worst cover art in history.

dave q, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just picked up Gil Evans "There Comes A Time" and the sound quality is a big problem. Hard to pick up on the brilliance of his arrangments when the mix is so out of wack. I have the original LP, and I see he remixed and re-edited for the CD, which probably makes it sound better.

Mark, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Motorhead: Ace Of Spades!!!!!!!!

Great tunes, great performance, but it sounds like it was recorded on some cheapo 4 track in someone's cellar!!!!!! And as for the cover shoot- it looks like they found some Doctor Who sandpit!!!!!!! You wouldn't think Lemmy used to be in Hawkwind, would you?!?!?! (And maybe that was the point....)

Old Fart!!!!

Old Fart!!!!, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Confirm that "There Comes A Time" on CD, apart from having twice as much stuff on it as the LP did (including the full 20-minute "Meaning of the Blues") is audibly much better. Ryo Kawasaki's guitar histrionics thankfully mixed down, too.

Avoid, however, "Metropolis" by Mike Westbrook on CD, which literally sounds as if it had been taped off a warped old vinyl copy.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

How about stuff that is "hissy / scratchy / muffled / over-trebled / crackly / vague / sounds like it was recorded underwater," but its very weaknessness are the qualities that add to its greatness?

e.g. golden era reggae. What would Lee Perry's productions sound like if they didn't have all the crap?

cybele, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nah, there's a difference between stuff which is produced using non-convential techniques and sounds (e.g. Lee Perry), and music where it is the mastering or manufacturing which is terrible. you can easily notice this by listening to old CD reissues (i.e. ones which came out in the late 80s, early 90s), and comparing them with the original vinyl LP.

m jemmeson, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

How about the self-titled Smiths album which sounds like it was recorded underwater?

Dan Perry, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

First Roxy Music lp... classic though it sounds awful, very treble-y. Also I'm surprised no-one's yet mentioned RAW POWER (though I prefer it to the remix).

RW, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

surprised no-one's mentioned MBV 'Loveless'
*ducks*

m jemmeson, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I disagree with almost all these nominations. In particular, "Ziggy Stardust" and the first Roxy Music both sound flawless. "Ziggy" may not be a bass-heavy production (neither is "Loveless"); perhaps this is sound the engineers were going for. Of course, I have a fancy hifi.

"White Light, White Heat" anyone?

Sean, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't know...I'm talking more than just Perry's unconventionality. I own a good number of original LPs and the murky muddy underwater sound is a big part of the production and that was not necessarily a result of purpose as much as a result of equipment, poor quality master tapes, and Perry's love of dumping tracks to make room for more.

Granted, I will agree that the way to listen to reggae of that era is DEFINITELY NOT ON CD.

cybele, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

..and I haven't heard Chelsea Girl or an Ivor Cutler works on CD - but I can't imagine that it would be better without the hiss, background noise & the sound of harmonium keys being pressed.

Dave225, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

we're talking about bad mastering jobs for the most part here, right? I mean, there is some stuff that is recorded all tinny and crappy on purpose, but can stil lsoudn good. The stuff mentioned in the original posts is abviously mastering, since i doubt they meant them to sound bad (haven;t heard the metallica in a long time). I agree that exile on main st. sounds a bit crappy on the CD, but the original vinyl pressing sounds fairly decent. Though everyone was on drugs when they recorded that, so they may have got the eq off... Someone mentioned early CDs sounding crappy. It's true. Check out all the dylan CDs on Columbia or whetever, they all sound like shit. They need to get a remastering job. I know sundazed has been working on the LPs, i haven't heard them yet though.

g, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Lord Custos, you've convinced me to give those two records a listen. There just isn't enough hopelessly tinny in the world.

They're both good records, but for some reason, I can only enjoy ...and Justice For All when I'm scrubbing the bathroom. The ceramic/porcelain tile acoustics are the only thing that brings out the bass.

Lord Custos, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

we're talking about bad mastering jobs for the most part here, right?

Actually crummy recording for any reason whatsoever.
I guess this cant be seen as two different questions.

MAIN QUESTION

Which albums should be avoided by hopeless audiophiles that can't stand overly muffled/tinny/hissy/crackly sound?

OPTIONAL MYSTERY BONUS QUESTION

I guess, in theory, a screwy mix can actually add something fresh or interesting to normally banal music. (Imagine Travis after Lee "Scratch" Perry gets done with them.)
Are there any albums out there where mediocre music was saved by inventive production or exceptionally clear mastering? n, there is some stuff that is recorded all tinny and crappy on purpose, but can stil lsoudn good. The stuff mentioned in the original posts is abviously mastering, since i doubt they meant them to sound bad

Lord Custos, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oops.
"...cant be seen..." should be "...can be seen..."

Lord Custos, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Amon Tobin's Supermodified sounds like assmonkeys on a Linn Cd player in a nice, antiseptic room, yet oddly sounds amazing coming out of a car stereo at 11. On the other hand, it seems as if Don Was has pissed all over every single recording he's produced since B-52's. YUCK on the new Black Crowes and YUCK on everything else the man touches--he's like the evil twin of Rick Rubin. Inscrutable reputation with seemingly little to show for it.

Mickey Black Eyes, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I agree that exile on main st. sounds a bit crappy on the CD, but the original vinyl pressing sounds fairly decent.

I believe the production on Exile on Main Street is intentionally a little screwy. Nevertheless, the CD is terrible. I didn't like the album at all until I heard it on vinyl. I know a lot of people who like the Rolling Stones, but think that album is no good. I'm convinced its the CD's fault.

Check out all the dylan CDs on Columbia or whetever, they all sound like shit. They need to get a remastering job. I know sundazed has been working on the LPs, i haven't heard them yet though.

For some reason, Street Legal got a remastering on CD a few years ago. It sounds okay. I just got the Sundazed pressing of Bringing it All Back Home in the mail last week. Sounds great! Heavy vinyl, analog mastering all the way (I think), and it's in mono. I never had anything against the Dylan CDs, but the Sundazed BIABH destroys the CD I have. The electric half of the album sounds a bit meaner in mono. I hope Sundazed does more Dylan records.

Oliver, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah I've never heard anything wrong with Exile BUT I've always heard it on vinyl. I spent $30 in San Francisco at a store with no turntables on a double-album's worth of bootleg Rolling Stones stuff from the mid 60s; radio shows, etc. and not a single track was even listenable. FFFACK

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I believe the production on Exile on Main Street is intentionally a little screwy. Nevertheless, the CD is terrible. I didn't like the album at all until I heard it on vinyl. I know a lot of people who like the Rolling Stones, but think that album is no good. I'm convinced its the CD's fault.

I agree. I had read constantly that it was their best album and I borrowed the CD (first generation Columbia pressing) from a huge Stones fan and I didn't like anything on it aside from "Rocks Off". I later bought the vinyl (Atlantic pressing) on a whim, and was in awe of it. Columbia had a terrible reputation when it comes to their early CD transfers (see the Miles Davis catalog), and Exile certainly was par for the course. Perhaps the Virgin reissue was better.

There's plenty more Bob Dylan vinyl reissues, on 180 gm wax, mastered from analogue tapes, and cheaper than Sundazed's. Sure they're in stereo, but just push the mono button on yr stereo.

Vic Funk, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Amon Tobin's Supermodified sounds like assmonkeys on a Linn Cd player in a nice, antiseptic room, yet oddly sounds amazing coming out of a car stereo at 11."

Really? Sounds pretty dazzling on my stereo, and (I have on good authority) on MD through Mr Dastoor's stereo. Neither of us, it has to be said, own Linn CD players nor (more importantly) have antiseptic rooms. I wonder what it sounds like inside a septic tank?

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This one's easy. Soundgarden's Down on the Upside. Somewhat enjoyable album has the sound of being muffled over, most obvious on the track "Pretty Noose".

Luptune Pitman, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I know, weird, right? I thought Supermodified would be great on a Linn--so I took it with me to one of my friend's places where he's got one of those gonzo 2001-esque rooms and I popped it in and it was just flat. I mean, it was like canned dynamics--I can't explain it other than it was sort of like hearing someone scream at 10 db. You know it's supposed to be extremely emotive, but it comes across as oddly muted. I think it's because it's so many samples that are all compressed, so it sounds oddly ineffective when you've got a really clear stereo system. But then again, I'm a musician, not an engineer, so I'm sure there are other reasons.

Mickey Black Eyes, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The Virgin 'Exile' sonds just fine on CD. The earlier Stones albums sound like a crock of crap though. I've head they'll be re-issued next year to coincide with Mick and co's 40th anniv.

Dr. C, Wednesday, 14 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"I thought Supermodified would be great on a Linn"

I don't think the CD player is going to be the deciding factor (compared to your other reference of a car stereo) - more likely the rest of the playback chain/environment. Perhaps your friend has really lean-sounding speakers, or flimsy particleboard walls? I've got a pretty good system, and while I'm sure "Supermodified" doesn't have quite the visceral impact it would in an enclosed and woofered- up space like a car, it certainly doesn't sound flat. The opening to "Golfer vrs Boxer" is a growling bass monster.

Michael Jones, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dunno if this is what you wanted, but De La Soul's 3 Feet High And Raising LP on vinyl is way too quiet, sort of muffled. Bad mastering?

Jeff, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Cybele, my understanding of Perry's late seventies technique is that he deliberately used and manipulated the degradation and noise in each successive "bouncing-down" to good effect. I think it *was* a purposeful act. It's not like he arrived at his late-70s sound through inexperience or because he didn't know how to make things clearer. The early '70s records are among the crispest-sounding of their time.

I suppose it's possible that the tape he used (and re-used) wore out but that seems a very unlikely explanation for the development of his individual style.

I think that a properly-mastered CD is just as good for roots reggae as old vinyl. It's bad and/or careless mastering which causes problems. And some vintage vinyl was pressed so badly that the music really suffers.

Tim, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The production is the best thing about White Light/White Heat.

I can't imagine being prissy enough to not listen to a record because of the sound quality.

sundar subramanian, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I totally agree.

Sean, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I can't imagine being prissy enough to not listen to a record because of the sound quality.

I don't think I've ever done so because the sound was too "hissy / scratchy / muffled" (and I too like things that sound like they were rec. underwater), but there are records I don't listen to because they sound too compressed, strident, or hurt my ears. But the line between recording techniques and the actual music gets very blurred with electronic music, etc., etc. And I don't think overproduction is really what's being talked about here.

Of course, the hiss on Black Beauty (Miles Davis) gets on my nerves, but that's minor. I collect bootlegs, after all, so I've learned to deal with that sort of thing. (And bootlegs aren't really what we're talking about, either. Though I do have a Coltrane radio broadcast bootleg that's pretty hard to listen to. Heavy distortion + twenty-minute improvisations = tough sledding.) There is an album (by a band that shall remain nameless) which I'd like a lot except for the fact that it's so damn dry. Vocals which should soar end up sounding like they were recorded in an isolation booth. (They probably were, but they shouldn't sound that way!)

Phil, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The original LP of '3 Feet High And Rising' sounds awful cuz it tried to cram 65 minutes onto one piece of vinyl, something which afflicted many hiphop albums of the late eighties. I assume the recently issued double-LP sounds lovely.

joel, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was gonna say that.

Sean, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Extremely pertinent info Joel. "+1 Insightful"

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"The original LP of '3 Feet High And Rising' sounds awful cuz it tried to cram 65 minutes onto one piece of vinyl, something which afflicted many hiphop albums of the late eighties."

Probably lots of non-hiphop records too. I bought Philip Glass's "Powaqqatsi" soundtrack in '88 - that's a single LP and clocks in at 68 minutes. Same track listing as the (73-minute) CD, just with a few sloppy edits. Cheers, Elektra Nonesuch.

Michael Jones, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The original version of Mornington Crescent by My Life Story is quite tinny and the first couple of Human League albums don't sound too great either.

jamesmichaelward, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The most annoying thing about "...And Justice For All," though, is the fact that the other members _deliberately_ screwed it up just to denigrate bassist Jason Newsted. It's a wonder he lasted for twelve more years.

Jack Redelfs, Thursday, 15 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I completely forgot to mention yesterday Rush - 'Signals': appallingly muffled production. This was the last album Terry Brown had a hand in. 'Exit: Stage Left' (for which 'Broon' had sole producer credit) is also not good - bares hardly any resemblance the actual live sound.

Jeff, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

All the complaints about Metallica's 'Justice' are true, but they went WAY too far in the other direction with the 'Black Album', where the low-end mix just makes it stupifying and soporific over the course of 12 sound-alike songs.

dave q, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"flimsy particleboard walls" - crucial, I think. I won't listen to anything without *thick plasterboard* walls. Come to that, my copy of the Darling Buds' 'Pop Said...' LP sounds great in a portakabin, if you stand about 200 yards away.

I think I have to agree with Sundar, really. Great sound quality is a great thing for sure, but *not* listening to something you like cos of sound quality? - that would require a different breed of ear from mine. Exile is a fine example - I can't believe that the CD quality is a real factor in people's experience of it. What about the Music, maan?

the pinefox, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

CD quality is a factor when it sounds like shit compared to the original vinyl. Aerosmith's 'Rocks' is the worst CD mastering I ever heard. In fact, it sounds bad enough to be late-period Aerosmith.

dave q, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I once saw an ad for the oval-shaped speakers that supposedly "cut down on 'standing waves' that distort your sound."
Is that a legitimate concern, or just silly ad-copy.

Lord Custos, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's nonsense. Standing waves are caused by how you've placed your speakers in a room, and "oval" speakers won't address this at all.

Sean, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Machito - Kenya, has distortion all the way through on the horns (rather annoying for a latin album) on the CD. and i don't have 30 quid to see whether the original vinyl has it or not

michael, Friday, 16 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

one year passes...
Casting *RESURRECT THREAD*

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 14 March 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Anything compact disc released before, say, 1995 on MCA Records suffers from abysmal mastering.

christoff (christoff), Friday, 14 March 2003 16:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't remember what the bass sounds like in the mix, but I can remember how canned sounding the drums came out. I'm pretty sure that Lars Ulrich use Simmons drums for everything but the snare on "And Justice for All"? They should have broken up, it has never quite work right since the wreck.

Neil Peart used an electronic kit on "Grace Under Pressure" and they sound just as terrible.

The 80s electronic drum kit may have worked for The Gap Band, but it didn't sound right in these two places.

earlnash, Friday, 14 March 2003 16:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Neil Peart used an electronic kit on "Grace Under Pressure" and they sound just as terrible.
The essay linked to in the "Music Into Noise: The Destructive Use Of Dynamic Range Compression, part 2" thread has a different spin on that same record, and on Neil Peart.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 14 March 2003 19:19 (twenty-three years ago)

OTM on And Justice For All of course. The bass drums sound like patting on cardboard boxes.

Emperor Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk: There are tons of badly produced metal albums of course (most of them intentionally though) but this one is striking in the sense that it's Eirik Hundvin's only bad production job. And to think that duplicating the sound of the previous album would've been just fine - but he made it a huge mess. With an annoying, flat guitar tone. And every time the synths kick in, the vocals disappear. Whoever mixed the album clearly had an off day too.

Siegbran (eofor), Friday, 14 March 2003 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)


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