industrial strength reynolds

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http://villagevoice.com/issues/0331/reynolds.php

Where simon posits (is this a teaser for the post-punk book?) that industrial "was the second flowering of an authentic psychedelia. ("Authentic" meaning non-revivalist, untainted by nostalgia)." (is that a shot at the 'paisley underground'?)

I don't think this ever crossed my mind (and I just started cchecking out some industrial stuff), but it seems obvious in a way. Especially as I listen to Chrome right now. Wait, what are Chrome?

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 17 July 2004 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

The early Destroy All Monsters stuff definitely fits this paradigm also.

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 17 July 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Chrome were a sci-fi-as-surrealism, DIY metal-punk band!

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 17 July 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean obv. like almost all music post-1966 industrial is heavily informed by psychedelia (also Reynolds seems to be conflating garage with psych, which confuses the issue somewhat) but there seem to be almost as many differences--tone, politics, purpose, et all--as similarities (esp. on the British end, I can see the argument that Chrome/Factrix were connected to psychedelia, much more easily--this really was explicitly "head" music.)

Hahaha but obv. this connection will be a major component of Reynolds book. The search for a reincarnated psych is the major focus of Energy Flash and I can't see Reynolds giving up the ghost just yet.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 17 July 2004 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

This seems plausible--but second? I think there are probably some other claiments to a new psychedelia before industrial. (Is "Bitches Brew" first wave psychedelia, or wouldn't he consider it psychedelia at all?) But something like side two of Throbbing Gristle's Once Upon a Time with that onslaught of disorienting sounds going up and down, manipulated tape samples, etc. could easily claim psychedelic status. I'm not the music historian some of you are, so I'm also sure there could be endless discussions about the difference between the first wave of psychedelia and industrial. (Also, to take the TG example, I think their work includes psychedelia, but I don't think they were sometimes after very different things.)

I guess I should read the article first.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 17 July 2004 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Mostly sensible, at a quick read.

just in time for rave, that other authentic, non-retro reflowering of psychedelia.

I guess this is true musically, but an awful lot of the imagery at the time seemed pretty retro to me. "The Summer of/ov Love" and so forth.

I'm not even so sure TG was void of nostalgia, at least not Genesis. It's interesting that in some interview or other I read with him he talks about how he keeps coming back to the psychedelic music of his youth. (He does tend to contradict himself from interview to interview though.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 17 July 2004 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

The samples used on Jack the Tab, which from what I can remember, seem mostly drawn from 60's/70's sources. "We want to be free to ride. . ." I don't know how representative Jack the Tab was of what was happening though. (I mean, I literally don't know: I'm not familiar enough with acid house and techno and not interested enough to have found out.) I know some people who love rave pretty much hate Psychic TV's take on it.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 17 July 2004 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

By tracing industrial back to COUM (obvious enough), or mentioning continuities between Can and Cabaret Voltaire (or one of those bands), Reynolds is almost putting himself in the position of having to say that psychedelia never really went away after the 60's (which might be the more accurate conclusion).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 17 July 2004 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Re. Alex's comment on tone--of course, all psych was not flower power. There was a lot of dark surrealism and Gothic aesthetics in '60s psych, too.

Anyone heard the Dr. Mix and the Remix version of the Seeds' "Six Dreams?" Great TG-like track.

And yeah, Rockist, I think your statement is right. A lot of the No. American proto-punk bands were psychedelic: Simply Saucer, Destroy All Monsters, Electric Eels, Pere Ubu, Television...

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 17 July 2004 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

"Re. Alex's comment on tone--of course, all psych was not flower power. There was a lot of dark surrealism and Gothic aesthetics in '60s psych, too."

You don't say?!!? It wasn't all Apple and Fairfield Parlour?!?! BTW wtf are gothic aesthetics? Flying buttresses? (All I was saying is the tone of psych--even the dreariest and most dread-filled of it--from the sixties tended to be much lighter in tone than the almost uniformly non-whimsical industrialists.)

Also when Reynold's is speaking of rave = non-nostalgic psychedelia, I would say he's talking more about 1991-1992 hardcore era and not the obviously nostalgic 2nd Summer of Love era of rave.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

As someone who's exposure to rave culture and techno pretty much began with Psychic TV's take on it...I'd say their take on it was pretty singular. Most house/techno/rave types I've met hated that stuff then and still do, I enjoy a bit of it for poppy and nostalgic reasons. Esp. the song IC Water, which was the single. But I've heard so many club dj people complain about buying that Jack the Tab UK Acid Freakbeats or whatever record and being totally dissapointed, technically, it's got very little to do with what the terms Jack and Acid meant in the context of Chicago house music. But I think it's a really fun record.

I've heard that Doctor Mix track, it's pretty good.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Comment wasn't meant to be insulting there, good buddy. I don't think there's anything light about "Catalyptic" by Aorta or "Cauldron" by 50 Ft. Hose or "Flight Reaction" by the Calico Wall, etc, etc.

Gothic was a subset of Romantic aesthetics. The Gothic novel was pioneered by people such as Matthew Arnold and Anne Radcliffe.

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

That doesn't explain what they are and how any of the three songs you mention embody them musically.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

All I was saying is the tone of psych--even the dreariest and most dread-filled of it--from the sixties tended to be much lighter in tone than the almost uniformly non-whimsical industrialists.

Really? A lot of industrial seems whimsical to me - even if it didn't mean to be (but maybe it did).

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually non-fantastical is more accurate than non-whimsical, cuz you are right that there are elements of humor in industrial (esp. in TG).

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, good. Whats non-fantastical mean?

― artdamages (artdamages), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

They are are all drawing from the same primary source. if anything they are all just music related manifestations of the dadist/surrealist continuum. psych was perhaps closer to surrealism because it was lighter and maybe more oriented towards the nicer aspects of the unconscious, whereas industrial was more dadist, more absurd and violent. They both tried to break through psychological barriers, the outward differences might have been a product of the times. 60's idealism, vs 70 stagflation/80's regan/thatcher neu-conservatism.

― Disco Nihilist (mjt), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I wasn't saying those three songs were especially Gothic, but there are probably some Gothic elements in them. Fever Tree playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor was obviously a Gothic gesture. (I know that's Baroque era--Romanticism was partly to do with "the cult of the old.")

― Tim Ellison, Saturday, 17 July 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

So you don't actually know what Gothic aesthetics are, do you? You just know "gestures" when you see them, yes?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 17 July 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

There were multiple 2nd flowerings of psych in the 70's that didn't owe anything to flower-power. But everyone has their idea of what "psych" is, i suppose. I would include all the Ohio yahoos and all the great electronic stuff both kraut and non-kraut, The Residents, Chrome, etc, etc. But the Cabs and T.G. and all the rest later? definitely. Early severed heads would make my list of fave psych moments. even if nobody calls it psych. Lots of those bands would. Drug music comes in many shapes and forms, but i know it when i smell it.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 17 July 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Siouxsie made great psych records in the 70's too.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 17 July 2004 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

the cabs were working in 74, Coum started working in the rock idiom as TG in 76. Then you have the west coast people like like Z'ev, or Rhythm and Noise who had been working since the late 60's, and Monte Cazazza and Boyd Rice had been working in visual and sound art since the early 70's. I think there were a lot of interesting things going on in parallel but separate music scenes back then.

I think reynolds is rewriting history, these stylistic threads always existed and had always been explored, but he chooses to highlight certain people and force a narrative on to parallel musical situations. Music is always a big mess and trying to make sense out of it means that you have to create a believable fiction.

― Disco Nihilist (mjt), Saturday, 17 July 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

when you write "the second flowering of an authentic psychedelia" you are really setting yourself up in a big way. There are just as many parallels with 76/77 punk and 60's psych as there are with post-punk/industrial and 60's psych.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 July 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone define psych for me. It seems like we are using a pretty big umbrella.

― artdamages (artdamages), Sunday, 18 July 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Gothic aesthetics have to do with madness, horror, death, etc. in a Romantic context. Given your arrogance, however, I think I'll decline to be involved in any further conversation with you about it.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 July 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

X-post to Alex.

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 July 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I always thought the good thing about acid, when i used to do it many moons ago, was that when you were on it everything was psych. Didn't matter what I was listening to. This sorta works with pot as well. I've been convinced that a lot of bad music was great on pot. Which is one of the many dangers of weed. This works with booze too. I went and saw Mission Of Burma a week ago here at home on Martha's Vineyard and the drunker I got the better they sounded. And then they played Astronomy Domine and I had a flashback.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 July 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

artdamages, just like with any rock sub-genre there are 4000 other sub-genres within that sub-genre. Which is how you get Pepper-psych, Loner-folk-psych, pastoral-prog-psych, electroacoustic-drone-psych, exploito-psych, hard-rock-psych, eastern-influenced-raga-psych, diy-tribal-drum-psych, freakbeat-garage-fuzz-psych, orchestral-pop-psych, jazz-psych, funk-psych, etc, ad nauseum.

But most people just think of the beatles and all that they inspired. And there are some people who only take music seriously if it was made for and inspired by the psychedelic experience. Plus, there are 4000 examples of albums that are indistiguishable from most drug music albums that are, nonetheless, drug music albums due to the drone/repetition/feedback/electronic qualities that they possess. Most of these were made by college professors obsessed with the Moog synthesizer.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 July 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

When I was 16, Burning From The Inside was one of my favorite things to listen to when I was tripping my brains out. And Pop too! The U.K. version. What a great psych record. Same with Seventh Dream Of Teenage Heaven.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 July 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I know my question was a little silly, i was just hoping someone might go somewhere with it. x-post

― artdamages (artdamages), Sunday, 18 July 2004 02:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Where does glam fit into this? T Rex and David Bowie both started psychedlic and tweaked-- to the point where you can see the difference but also the simmilarities. And considering glam went into punk. And considering psych went into prog, and Pink Floyd and King Crimson and Gong and Henry Cow, this is all incredibly convoluted.

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 18 July 2004 02:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I always thought the good thing about acid, when i used to do it many moons ago, was that when you were on it everything was psych.

otm. walking around or staring into the sun or at the wall is psych.

― artdamages (artdamages), Sunday, 18 July 2004 02:09 (twenty-one years ago)

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