is the new dizzee album that good really?

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either hes over pro-tooled it, or hes simply run out of steam already. the beats are pretty good on the whole, but its just not as exciting or awe inspiring as last time. its also more hip hop, rather than grime. the songs are also a lot more freestyle rather than concept based. hes just talking about nothing in particular on a lot of the songs.

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

that wasnt written very well, but anyway, the new albums not bad at all, its just lacking much vitality.

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

The first one was a paradigm shift; it blew our minds. This one lacks the impact. It is perhaps less inventive, lyrically less solid maybe and i agree the production has suffered and sounds sanitized. The sound is less grimey but still grime whilst hip hop is more at the forefront but what i miss is the gnarliness and roughness of the first one. This record is far more reserved, far more cerebral. Both in lyrically and musically. I am yet to conclude the extent to which this makes it a lesser record than the first one, or if indeed it does. I am also pondering how similar this record would have been if Dizzee didn’t collect a certain prize for the first one. Nevertheless I am certainly enjoying Showtime.

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

if he didnt have all the press last time round, he might not have made another record so soon. or it might have been hungrier sounding, rougher, less well rounded.

im not sure to what extent this makes this a worse/better record either.

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

you could've used the existing thread for this you know...

maybe the fact it's been released only a year after the debut is a factor, only this is common for prolific lyricists with minimal production, and it doesn't stop a whole bunch of American rappers receiving gallons of hyperbole for churning out lengthy albums which are full of talking about nothing in particular. i suppose i'm saying it's a bit harsh to call Dizzee out on this - i appreciate he wanted to put something new out so relatively quickly and there are lots of great bits (but fuck albums generally now y'know?)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

the answer to your question is yes, yes it is.

― m. (mitchlnw), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

the only reason i talked about the nothing in particular thing, is because the first album was full of several lyrically focused songs that made the album so good.

i will never say 'fuck albums'...

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

i find i am saying it more and more

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm gonna have to agree with Mitch there. IMHO, Dizzee sounds so much more confident and comfortable on this album, the lyrics have more punch (emotionally and hilariously and brain-busting-WOW-ishly etc), the beats are far more focused and well-matched to the song's topics, the overall flow of the album has more of a constant rising action arc. It's like, where BIDC had all these wonderful ideas and powerful presence, Showtime is those same ideas and presence, not just put forth for us to witness, but with Dizzee using those powers for good rather than evil. Or sometimes evil.

xpost I find this album WAAAAY more lyrically focused than BIDC, but I always disagree with people about that kind of thing

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

isn't it harder these days to make a album that will be considered truly great or even just good because people's expectations are ever ascending?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

i find my expectations ever descending.

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

nickalicious otm

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is that? Isn't it harder to impress people now? Or is there an increasing divide - critic types becoming harder to please but joe public/£50 man/teenagers either constant or low expectations because we might be experiencing some sort of nadir in pop (others seem to suggest we are but i do not necessarily agree)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

the album is unfocused to me lyrically, because he seems to rap about the same old things across the whole album. nothing seems to be locked into one concept for one song, its the same ol nonsense spread thin over about 45 minutes or so.

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Well he did say he wanted to be like Jay-Z...

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Retired?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

dating beyonce?

― splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Appreciating the love that dare not speak its name (allegedly)?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

hawking reeboks with 50 cent?

― zebedee (zebedee), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, that reminds me: is this CD the same thing - more or less - as the 'S Carter mixtape' thing that people were mentioning around the time that The Black Album csme out?

http://www2.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=-1;1;7;-1&sku=203118

(sorry for perpetuating the thread de-rail)

― zebedee (zebedee), Thursday, 12 August 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

drawing cartoons for the new yorker?

― Symplistic (shmuel), Thursday, 12 August 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the 'stand' b-side, "give u more" more than a few of the album tracks, and that's saying something!

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 13 August 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i've avoided the other threads because the sheer size was imposing to say the least, but I'm not so into this one either. I listened to it about four times, and the only song that made any kind of lasting impression was "Dreams." I kicked off a mixtape with it and promptly filed Showtime away until Lord kows when. BIDC sounded so much more vital, so fresh and, well, just HEAVY. This one is sorta tepid in places. Doesn't leave a very strong impression IMHO.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 13 August 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a feeling lots of corny indie fuxx are going to love "Dream".

This is not to imply that YOU are a CIF rog, this is just something I was thinking about listening to this album for the umpteen-millionth time last night.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

'Dream' is just too funny and sweet to hate on

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

to me there's a lot less of the really mournful stuff and of the really energetic stuff. it's tempered. the emotional range is narrower. maybe dizzee is more contained within him self, older now.

but the production is very strong. people that make comments like 'he made his first album on Playstation' are wrong. it was on Logic/hardware etc. though this time they do have one of those big phat TL Audio valve desks.

some of the percussive tracks like 'face' and 'give u more' are amazing, beatz wise.

― martin (martin), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:40 (twenty-one years ago)

not as vital/hard-hitting/crucial/etc

dude, he made a party album, sue him why don't you.

― Lukas (lukas), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

After hearing it all the way through today, this album is really self obsessed, full of ridiculous tough guy talk, and paranoid delusion. Whats all that stuff about thinking hes blamed for increased guns at garage raves, or that the cops are after him. And 'ill make you respect me if it kills you?' don’t make me laugh. Who doesn’t respect him (apart from so solid)? All this hard done by stuff is grating.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Friday, 20 August 2004 09:34 (twenty-one years ago)

the beats are also more hip hop and less layered or intricate and interesting, not nearly hard or urgent enough. the sonic slickness doesnt help either.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Friday, 20 August 2004 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Graftin' and Respect Me don't exactly scream 'party album' to these eyes. I'm enjoying this more and more after initial disappointment - I think Girls is my favourite at the moment.

Dream is rubbish though, although I'll put this mostly down to it sampling one of my most hated pieces of music ever.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 20 August 2004 10:32 (twenty-one years ago)

the happy talk track is maybe one of the best. at least its a break from dizzees examining his poor and tortured post-fame life.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Friday, 20 August 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, who is Marga Man? His contribution to Girls is marvellous - he sounds like one of the campest rappers I've ever heard. It's like he and Dizzee are trying to out-yelp each other. Marvellous.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

marga is one of the worst MCs ive ever heard! he sounds like a novelty childrens TV rapper.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Matt, say the world is round...

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

If anything, the beats are stronger on this album, I love the texture to that muffled beat on Hype Talk, like he's running a mic over a sofa or something. Also Knock Knock sounds pretty great.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

if matt said that, it would make more sense.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

well after repeated listening to this, its definitely not commercial but it is more geared for wider consumption (if that makes sense) without losing his avant-garde-ness. so avant mainstream perhaps. but overall, i think there is quite a bit less intricacy to the beats, they also seem quite slick and if theyre not polished per se, everything does seem somewhat 'levelled out' texturally. nothing really jumps out from the track, its all 'sanded down'. as such it doesnt feel as vital as BIDC or as sharp, sonically. also, hardly any of the beats are very fast, theyre all pretty slow and downbeat and slightly lumbering. nothing wrong with that but i miss the faster rapid fire intricacy of a track like i luv u. i also miss the heavier bass tones from the first album. the bside of stand up tall goes some way to fixing these absences for me though.

i know comparing one album to the next or previous one is a bit boring, but i cant resist it. BIDC still sounds amazing and fresh.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 24 September 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

in short, wheres the energy gone?!

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 24 September 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

into the rapping

― Keith McD (Rob McD), Friday, 24 September 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

this album is really self obsessed, full of ridiculous tough guy talk, and paranoid delusion

It's Blonde on Blonde!

The album's good. It doesn't make some major move from the first one -- it's not The Marshall Mathers LP or whatever, something that makes you realize this guy didn't show you everything he had the first time around. But what he showed on the first one is enough to make me want to hear more of the same. He's still one of the most interesting new things of the last few years.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 24 September 2004 03:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Keith so OTM

― adam. (nordicskilla), Friday, 24 September 2004 03:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i've said it before: grime is 2 lane music, like jungle.

wot u on, 2 far, stop dat, vexed = slightly lumbering rapping, (well, relatively, and it's pretty aggressive lumbering) but rapid fire beats. there's also lumbering rapping on lumbering beats on BIDC, eg Fix Up

most of Showtime = lumbering beats, but hyper-intricate intense rapid fire rapping.
and of course Fickle = hyper-intricate rapid fire beats AND rapping

I suppose I see what you mean about the textures, but he more than makes up for it with a much more colourful textural palette

― Keith McD (Rob McD), Friday, 24 September 2004 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

and yeah, it is more hip-hop, and I AM one of those people who really doesn't want grime to just turn into hip-hop, but what amazes me is that it's simultaneously more ravey. It's way grimier and has more to do with what I love about the hardcore continuum than a lot of current grime. It's just that the hip-hop side is more obvious, because he's aiming for a discerning hip-hop audience and wants to get it right, whereas with the ravey side of it, it's less to do with specific reference points and more about just a general spirit of psychedelic sonic adventure. But of course plenty of hip-hop from the last half decade sounds like rave too so it's easy to overlook.

― Keith McD (Rob McD), Friday, 24 September 2004 03:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Keith OTM *again* with that last post - strictly speaking there's more hip hop tempos on Showtime but it doesn't *feel* like a hip hop move, it's still totally post-'ardkore music.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 24 September 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah theres more of a hip hop feel this time, and while he hasnt tried to make any dr dre beats or anything, i was hoping he wouldnt be aiming for the hip hop crowd this time and would keep it grime.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 24 September 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

hes just talking about nothing in particular on a lot of the songs.

Mr splooge, your views are as ill-informed as your name is distasteful.

― adam. (nordicskilla), Friday, 24 September 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

by nothing in particular i mean the songs on their own arent quite as lyrically focused as they seemed to be on BIDC.

or rather, more than a few tracks find dizzee in some odd state of self-obsession where he thinks that the average punter really cares about all his minor inter-scene strife. its as if he knows its not that deep, but by making it seem as if it is, it might increase his currency.

― splooge (thesplooge), Saturday, 25 September 2004 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, i thought writing "the songs are also a lot more freestyle rather than concept based" would clear up the nothing in particular thing.

― splooge (thesplooge), Saturday, 25 September 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"or rather, more than a few tracks find dizzee in some odd state of self-obsession where he thinks that the average punter really cares about all his minor inter-scene strife. its as if he knows its not that deep, but by making it seem as if it is, it might increase his currency."

I dunno, I don't actually hear that many hyper-specific factual references in Showtime, or when he does include them it's almost ironic, like he's trying to make a point that he's bigger than that. Stuff like not being able to get past the nightclub bouncer strikes me as pretty general, and fantastically executed too.

In terms of the music it still sounds very grime to me. The scene itself is a lot less archetypally "grime" than it was when Boy In Da Corner came out (and even then there were already heaps of hip hop tempo tracks floating around); if anything, as simon at silverdollarcircle pointed out, there's a lot about Showtime that sounds like "old-fashioned" grime, spesh compared to the more full-bodied, fluid approach exemplified by producers like Terra Danjah. I'm astonished that the album is as grimey as it is!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 25 September 2004 03:21 (twenty-one years ago)

basically i agree with what martin clark says in this thread.

― splooge (thesplooge), Saturday, 25 September 2004 03:25 (twenty-one years ago)

also in ref. to whats on silverdollarcircle: "...and that dilemma is really at the heart of 'showtime'- dizzee's trying to reconcile his desire for a less stressful, easier life away from the streets where he grew up, with a worry that this will cause him to lose a vital part of himself- in many ways he IS his fierce loyalty to Bow. Dizzee openly tries to deal with the classic problem faced, but rarely confronted by, successful rappers. and it's a problem which strikes a chord with most people in some ways, cuz as a band which i grew up with once sang, 'doesn't everyone want to be somewhere else?'"

i have a bit of a hard time taking it seriously, mainly because weve all heard it so many times in hip hop songs. i dont know how true it really is or if dizzee simply wants it to be true.

― splooge (thesplooge), Saturday, 25 September 2004 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i suppose im the only person slightly dissapointed that the new album has less grime beats like the b-side of stand up tall (which is amazing) or even stand up tall itself!

― splooge (thesplooge), Sunday, 3 October 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

after listening to this over and over, one thing i think thats missing compared to the b-sides hes got out now (trapped is just WOW), is that sense of immediacy.

instead of being instant, brash, bold AND innovative and head spinning, hes taking the restrained and artful and subtle approach to innovation which aphex twin admiring mainstream rock fans and guardian readers seem to go for more than say i luv u, which was not only sonically head fucking but instant, bold, upfront about its intentions from the off.

still, that wonder produced beat is incredible.

― DVD (dickvandyke), Monday, 18 October 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

DIZZEE IS BETTER ON GRIME BEATS.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Monday, 18 October 2004 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

instead of being instant, brash, bold AND innovative and head spinning...

I really honestly would like a one-way ticket to this universe you live in where Showtime is not instant, brash, bold, innovative, and head-spinning. How much are fares?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 18 October 2004 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't understand how people seem to think that the less use of "concepts" in Dizzee's rapping makes the new record worse - the idea that "general" rapping doesn't compare is kinda rockist, isn't it?

personally, i think what he's exactly saying takes a major backseat to the way he says it. I'm utterly a fan of Showtime in this respect.

― lemin (lemin), Monday, 18 October 2004 18:54 (twenty-one years ago)

what i mean is that on a lot of tracks, the beats, the music is more understated and minimal than it is immediate.

― DVD (dickvandyke), Monday, 18 October 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

e.g - instead of full on heavy basslines, of which there are hardly any on showtime, the basslines murmur and suggest rather than state.

― DVD (dickvandyke), Monday, 18 October 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"the idea that "general" rapping doesn't compare is kinda rockist, isn't it?"

not really, it used to be a common criticism amongst hip hop fans of MCs not being able to 'stick to the topic'.....

― DVD (dickvandyke), Monday, 18 October 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

this album is big and its good and all that but its not raw like the first one, its not grimy sounding. and it doesnt catch you off guard like boy in da corner, with all weird stuff happening, i mean, its got some weird shit on there, but its not in your face and hitting you in the head with it, its all in the background which is not what i like. there are also no heavy b-lines on it either.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 28 October 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

PS - when i say its not grimy, im talking about compared to BIDC and other big grime tunes out right now, this is well clear sounding and perfect... im saying that its not dirty or rough sounding.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 28 October 2004 10:15 (twenty-one years ago)

has Showtime sold more than BIDC - or is it expected to? it seems Dizzee actually wanted to make something with more crossover/commercial appeal and experimentation and roughness have to be compromised somewhat.

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Thursday, 28 October 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

"experimentation and roughness have to be compromised somewhat"

me personally, i think that's a shame.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 28 October 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree that Dizzee's aim on Showtime was to make a more commercial album, but I definitely don't think it succeeds in that respect (apart from "Stand Up Tall" and "Dream" which are hardly representative) - the beats are so sparse, so minimal, and not even very complex, that there's nothing immediate to latch on to like "I Luv U" or "Wot U On" or "Jus' A Rascal". I'm not all that disappointed by it (though I think BIDC is way better) - I guess after just a year I still haven't had enough of BIDC, and didn't have massive expectations for Showtime.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 28 October 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah it doesnt succeed but its so blatant that thats what he was trying to do, its a bit of a shame from where im standing. yeah he never quite gets to be properly commercial or anything, but it still seems like a compromise, if only on the production level.

sure he might have wanted to do something in between but i dont see why. after all the props and decent sales he got last time he didnt have to try and go commercial. still i suppose its still really dark isnt it? and the beats are still kinda strange, theyre just not as impacting or exhilerating i think, apart from a few.

who knows though, 3rd album might be the best!

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Showtime's more of a grower, I've certainly grown to love it a lot more as I've been listening to it on the way home on headphones every day of the past week. Possibly I still see it as a stop-gap thing, and it's certainly very very good for one of those.

and in turn to this failure-to-be-properly-commercial thing, Showtime's best moments are when it IS properly commercial and slick: Stand Up Tall, Fickle, Get By (ohhhh Vanya's voice is gorgeous), Dream, Hype Talk.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

you might be right there lex. stand up tall is GREAT! when he gets mixed up and cant summon any energy, thats when it gets a big lagging. dunno if id describe all those tracks as commerical though maybe just energetic and more 'fun'.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, only Stand Up Tall is massively commercial. though so is Dream in an - eek - 'novelty' kinda way.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I really don't understand this whole "commercial"/"proper grime" binary titchy is pushing - "Stand Up Tall" is commercial but it's also the most obviously "8-bar", dyed in the wool grime thing on there. And "Dream" is only novelty in the sense that "Jus' a Rascal" was.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 28 October 2004 23:38 (twenty-one years ago)

im talking about sonically. the fact the sounds arent punchy and jabbing and poking you in the eye. its like BIDC smacked you about like jungle, soundswise, while showtime isnt cushioned, but has obviously been sheened up a bit, and nice and 'rounded off'.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Friday, 29 October 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm finally coming around to liking "Showtime" a lot, although it isn't the sonic knockout BIDC was. The production style *has* changed, but I don't think it is all for the worse. I am surprised people have been calling this album more melodic than BIDC.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Friday, 29 October 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

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