why do people always talk about greatest lyricists but never greatest melodicists?

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this is meant to be music after all, not literature.

(i have a feeling someone is about to point me towards a previous ILM post about melodicists).

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Search for "Geir Hongro"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I do all the time. Melodists and harmonists. But, you know, I'm not a music critic, so who cares what I think?

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i know more people who care and talk about great melodicists (is that a word?) than i know people who care and talk about great lyricists.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought no-one took any notice of lyrics anymore?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Since some people have really proggy notions of what defines a "great melody" I tend to just say people are catchy. A fave example of a great melodicist for me would be Grant McLennan.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

can i say this is an xpost from 1989?

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

so...

who are the great melodicists?

i have no proggy notions of great melody.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.acousticlovers.de/images/gallery/melodica.jpg

melodicists tend to be one step down from didgeridooists

― Huck, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

that was a reply to dada.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

A great lyric doea not a great popsong make. When people speak of a great songwriter, I'm sure most of them refer to the actual music, the song, the melody, chord progression, whatever, but not the lyric.

― Roger in Mokum (Roger T), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

It's both together! Lyrics fitting the melody (or dischordant din, whatever). Why is this so hard for people to understand?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

(yes you can have a great instrumental, but I wouldn't want too many of them)

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe it's because good lyricists are much rarer than good melodysmiths. And we're willing to forgive bad lyricists. But bad melodies? DOn't even show up with that weak shit.

― Huck, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

wow, i think the opposite to huck. not that great lyricists are in abundance, but i wish i was hearing more good melodicians.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:41 (twenty-one years ago)

But, Splooge, most good melodies are already out there. I mean, there's only so many variations mathmatically possible, so...

― Huck, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

But what would you buy: a record with awful songs (= music) but great lyrics or an album with great music but bad lyrics? I'd choose the latter. Both great (music + lyric) would be nice, sure, but that's hardly ever the case.

― Roger in Mokum (Roger T), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly.

― Huck, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe it's because it's hard to quote great melodies in writing (this is a good thing).

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

hey, lots of people bought dylan albums roger.

haha, really though, huck is right about there being only so many mathematical variations to work with, but that doesnt mean melodies cant sound fresh or new. if were talking mathematically, its not like theres only a select few formulas to rely on exclusively and follow slavishly.

yeah, journo types analyse music like its a lyric sheet with no disc.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I must admit I count myself lucky for not having English as my native language. No matter how great the song, if the lyric to a Dutch song (I'm Dutch) is really really awful, I can't listen to it at all. I do understand all English lyrics, but luckily I'm able to shut down the translator in my head, if the words gets too bad. I always wondered how English speakers most feel about that. Especially with all those love songs that are out there...

― Roger in Mokum (Roger T), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i like songs in other languages because the chance of me cringing is less and i can appreciate it as purely music.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Words schmords - when they're good you notice them, when they're not you ignore them

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I find it's often when they're bad that it's impossible to ignore them.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, really though, huck is right about there being only so many mathematical variations to work with

Really? I'm not a musicitician so I guess i don't know about these sorts of things. Can someone do the math for me then and tell me how many melodies there are?

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, how long of a melody are we talking about? 4 notes? 8 notes? 12 notes?

It goes up exponentially by a power of 11 (for each semi-tone in the octave) for each length note you add.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Can someone do the math for me then and tell me how many melodies there are?

there is only one. you can hear it best in "september gurls." there is a variation of it in the la's' "there she goes" and a variety of other songs. but there are no other actual melodies.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i typed that wrong, i fail to believe there are only a limited number of melodies out there. it doesnt make sense.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Which means that for a 4-note melody, there are 14,641 possible variations of notes.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

But, Splooge, most good melodies are already out there. I mean, there's only so many variations mathmatically possible, so...

only with standard tuning. Make up all kinds of pitch scales, and the variations are endless.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

When you consider the number of notes available combined with the rhythmic possibilities in just four bars, the possibilities are pretty much infinite without even taking into account phrase lengths and song form.

(x-posts)

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

For an 8-note phrase, which is equivalent to 2, 4-note bars, about the average length of a melody in a pop song, there are 214,358,881 different possible combinations.

Now, granted, some of those combinations will sound "better" or "more melodic" to Western ears, but don't *ever* underestimate again the power of a good melodicist to know exactly which one of those 214,358,881 potential melodies to stick with words.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

It goes up exponentially by a power of 11 (for each semi-tone in the octave)

there are 12 semitones actually.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Harry Partch's 39-note scale.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Thom Yorke isn't really a lyricist at all, but he's a brilliant melodicist.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought the 12th semi-tone is the octave.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Crikey, actually, you're right. I got the seven notes making an octave thing mixed up. Must adjust my numbers.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Given 12 semi-tones, the potential melodies within two bars of 4/4 time is 429,981,696. I was only out by two hundred million or so!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

of course you also have a choice of playing no note at all, so that gives you a 13th option each time.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Argh!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Ohmigod, taking into consideration rests, it would be 815,730,721 potential melodies. I don't know how anyone writes songs, ever.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

they do it without calculators and microsoft excel, on the whole.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I often do use a calculator to compose music. Especially the classical symphony I've been working on. Excel spreadsheet... now that I didn't even think about!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

also, the answer to the original question I sort've talked about in a different thread. Some rock crits (in my experience, anyway) don't have solid music theory backgrounds, but come from a lit/cult studies perspective, so that's why they emphasize lyrics.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

BRIGHT EYES IS VERY SINCERE AND HEARTFELT !1!@1111

― Red Panda Sanskrit (ex machina), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

math-rock to thread, to rebut splooge.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

But Kate, what about all those possible rythms? For example, I don't think you've counted two bars of crothcet triplets (think that's what they're called, each bar has three notes played evenly over four beats).

Also, you've counted

e,e,e,e,e,e,e,e

and

a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a

which is surely the same melody, but transposed?

― mei (mei), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I am going to set up a spreadsheet to write every melody ever. Ha ha!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

masonic is a evil calculating genius. and hstencil is stating something which is still OTM.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

its also a bit sad in my view.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Thread I'm talkin' 'bout, Willis: C Eddy (or peeps like him) vs. J Pareles (or peeps like him)

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't think about the transposition problem, nor did I think about rhtyhm. (Though essentially, I don't know if rhtyhm affects melody that much - after all, there are two different versions of Louie, Louie, one with three downbeats on the root note, and one with four downbeats on the root note, and those are indeed the same melody.)

I don't think that eliminating transposition would really discount more than about a million or so melodies, though. So you're still dealing with a heck of a lot of potential melodies.

x-post. I love music. I also love maths. The two skills or talents are often linked in a strange way, and I make no apologies for my obsessions.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

A few years ago I read about some software into which one fed examples of a composers music and it would write other tunes, even symphonies, in the same style. Good enough to sound OK, if not inspired. I haven't heard much about this kind of technology since - is it in use?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

people need to read some Henry Cowell, Harry Partch, through some La Monte in there too, boo.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

THROW, dammit.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, don't forget those microtones.

Since some people have really proggy notions of what defines a "great melody" I tend to just say people are catchy.

I don't think being catchy is the only way a melody can be great (not that you are necessarily implying that).

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, but I just can't read even one more work about music critics. I just can't do it. I'd rather fiddle spreadsheets all the doo-dah day.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I love music. I also love maths.

karma police, arrest this girl. she talks in maths... ;-)

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

i think there is a certain melodic symmetry which is in a lot of great melodies which is mathematical.

― splooge (thesplooge), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude, rhythm is CRUCIAL to melody. Changing or moving a melody can totally change the motion/effect, not to mention note length, passing tones, etc.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Which would be more interesting if I were prepared to describe how else they can be good, but I'm not. Well, I guess containing an element of surprise would be one way.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

jordan continues to be so OTM it hurts. how high can your calculator count, kate?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

rhythm is built out of melody, too.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, what if you count not just straight rhythm (ie calling ee a half note rather than e-e quarter notes) as a different melody, but also synchopation...

I have run out of digits on my calculator. Because it's not longer normal exponentials, but some kind of crazy algorhythmic (heh) exponentials. We need to get Toby in here, because it's been too long since I did calculus.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, think about it. We went from 200 million to 400 million to 800 million by adding one more possibility each time. Go up to 14 variables and it could be 1.6 billion!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think that eliminating transposition would really discount more than about a million or so melodies, though. So you're still dealing with a heck of a lot of potential melodies.

-- Super-Masonic Black Hole (masonicboo...), August 13th, 2004.

To get around this problem just fix the first note - going back to your original method (where you were splitting bars up into dscrete quarters or eigths) this would just remove one of the factors from your power.

(If the first note is silence then you've reduced the problem and can apply whatever method you have to a shorter sequence of notes. I think there will be lots of slightly alternative formulations of this basic idea).

― mei (mei), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, a simple alternation of, say, two Es an octave apart is definitely a melody!

― mei (mei), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is great. I love music theory shit.

― artdamages (artdamages), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

N. makes me laugh, almost.

What does he know, about music?

That's a question, not why he makes me laugh.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 14 August 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

why do people always talk about greatest lyricists but never greatest melodicists?

Because they're stupid. That's why everybody does everything.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 14 August 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do people always talk about greatest tapdancers but never greatest architects?

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Saturday, 14 August 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

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