No more black instrumentalists?

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Okay, this could be a volatile one... but is anyone alarmed or has anyone even really noticed the shrinking numbers of noted black musicians that actually play an instrument? In previous decades, we could look to many, many individuals in the blues, soul, jazz, funk, reggae, and rock fields that were seen as icons and inspirations to a generation. I can named hundreds: Miles, Coltrane, Buddy Guy, Hendrix, pianist, horn players, drummer, guitar players, etc, But after Prince, the Marsalis bros, Robert Cray, Bad Brains, etc. the list declines, while the list of singers/rappers/producers/pop icons just explodes. Are the real musicians no longer hero material? Has the 'Playa' replaced the player? Or do I just have my head up my ass?

― Andy, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Um...jazz?

― Jordan, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you're right andy.

― chaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"actually": are samplers and turntables instruments?

― Josh, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Andy's asking about black bands, or black players in white bands. I've wondered the same thing myself, after seeing a friend perform. It struck me that it had been years since I'd seen a black person play guitar in a club.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Every rapper that goes out on tour or appears on TV seems to have a full band behind them. There are black instrumentalists, perhaps not as many as when public schools had music programs, but the real question is why their snare drums sound so fake (you'd think the "sampling culture" with it's reliance on 70's break beats would be really into natural sounding snares, but the opposite seems to be the case) and their guitars are always drowned in cheesy effects. There's too much Funkadelic in these groups and not nearly enough James Brown.

― Kris, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, there are still black sidemen (often anonymous), and I'm sure still loads of working black jazzmen, though I can't really name many "new- school" black jazz players, or blues players. I guess what I'm talking about is the place in pop culture they once held, in just about everything outside of country. And if a 13 year old urban black kid decides he wants to get into music, is going to grab a bass or borrow a drum kit from his uncle? Or his going to start laying down rhymes or programming beats?

― Andy, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

as a matter of interest — i ask cuz i genuinely don't know and feel i ought to — what are relative costs of say an OK drumkit or a workable saxophone, a guitar'n'amp and stuff, and samplers+turntables+plus whatever. (Rise of eg Berklee type jazz/blues courses may also mean these musics have become "middle-class" now: at least you probably have to be to afford to learn to play them canonically...)

― mark s, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's not just that either - it's having friends: to borrow stuff from, and to play with, and to get into stuff with.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Two mid-priced decks, a mixer and headphones is more expensive than a mid-priced guitar, I believe.

― Mark, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You can get a Danelectro guitar, a student trumpet, a crappy electric bass or a mildly cheesy keyboard for under $200. Student saxophones are a little more, and low-end drum kits are decidedly more.

Jazz, yes, but the proportion of non-African-American jazz musicians has been going up and up and up, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.

― Phil, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Somehow I don't this is as much about economics as it is cultural; I've known many poor, poor white kids that scraped up and bought crummy pawnshop guitars, or stole them, or borrowed them... but they were usually influenced by a Randy Rhodes or Angus Young before them: a guy who played an instrument. And I think that there were a lot of young black men who scraped & saved to buy a battered sax in 1961 or whenever, after hearing Dexter Gordon or Coltrane. So what's changed culturally since then?

― Andy, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's the informal networks of buddies and people who are really VIBING off of popular music that build a base of musicians who play it. Like mark says, jazz and "legit" styles of musicianship - styles that lead to steady session work - are learned mainly in (relatively expensive) schools these days. A second-hand guitar might be had for $50, but a friend's got decks and a sampler... plus he knows some girlZor...

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the music buisness has always been into exploiting back music, making it safe, then selling it back to the white kids. its just more in abbundance now. even wit the korn rap metal shit.. i mean.. thats all Bad Brains, Living Color and yes.. Fishbone.

― chiznaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if you say this often enough chaki we shall all suddenly agree with you: explain why cultural apartheid is so fantastic again?

― mark s, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought all nu-metal sprang from the loins of Helmet, which is possibly the whitest band to ever walk the earth. I don't remember Living Color being an extraordinarily influential band... were they?

― Andy, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Andy, at least in the jazz world, it seems to me that there are plenty of young black jazz musicians making a name for themselves. Stefon Harris, Billy Kilson, Mark Turner, Brian Blade, Cindy Blackman, James Genus, Christian McBride, etc..

I don't think there ever really was a preponderance of black musicians in rock music, but it seems like there are still plenty of black instrumentalists working as sidemen (in bands as well as 'anonymous' sidemen) in, well, what's considered primarily black music forms (jazz, soul, hiphop, etc.).

― Jordan, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

andy - not influential at the time to the critics. even deemed irrelivent. but ask korn, incubus, etc etc etc who their influence is and they'll say "living color, faith no more." i've even read wes borland name drop "urban dance squad" in some article. remember them? they were neat. anyway, the way i see it, funkadelic invented rap metal so fuck all those shithead bands anyway.

― chaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

there arnt many black players in the ny downtown jazz scene, is there? i can only think of wadada leo smith and hes in la now.

― chaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I guess you're right, Chaki, the fact that I have to think hard to come up with some is telling. If you're only talking NYC, there's old-schoolers like Milford Graves and Roswell Rudd, there's Don Byron and Graham Haynes, David Fuiczynski, and David S. Ware. I'm sure there's more, but yeah, most of Zorn's crew at least is white/Euro/Japanese.

― Jordan, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fuizynski is only half black!

― chaki, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

How do white people treat him?

― Josh, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the times have changed, get used to it. There are still pleanty of black folks making music, they just are not doing in a way that seems exceptable to your rockist perspective.

For every black dude in the hood that is playing a guitar, there are ten dudes that are blowing shit up on the tables. I got a new perspective on music when I went to see Jeff Mills at the State Theatre earlier this year, and then later that night I saw Al Ester (an OLD OLD OLD School Detroit DJ, has been a working club dj since the mid 70's) Mike Clark, and a few other middle aged house dudes messing around after hours in the dj boothat a club when everyone had left.

You might not respect it as true musicianship because they are not playing stringed instruments, but I was blown away by them. They were quick mixing on three decks, grabbing snippets from each of the records, and constructing a new track for the componet pieces in real time. It was not just a mix, they were tearing these records apart trying to out do each other. Mills was so so, but these guys were out the box.

Black musical culture has moved away from the technologies that we consider the proper vessels of musical expression. It has been going that was since the Jamacian sound-clashes of the mid 1960's, the gay clubs on NYC in the 60's and early 70's, NYC hip-hop in the early 70's, Chicago House and Detroit Techno in the 80's and 90's. Black musicianship has not died one bit in the last 30 years, it has just taken a form that many people are not ready to accept yet.

As for musicians being hero's, most black musicians never got any credit even back then. the vast majority of working musicians were session men and bar players, both faceless in the grand scheme of history and the record biz. They still totally exist, it is just that the whole idea of musical composition in the last 20 years has changed from what rock people expect as "music". The session guys still session, it is just that their playing is cut-up and manipulated into what is the going style of R&B.

It is also a matter of economics, you do not need to pay 6 session guys for two months to make a record anymore. You just need one good programmer who can play piano. The business has changed, and the expectations of the business have changed as well. R&B records dont sound like James Brown anymore, and that is a good thing.

The thing to bear in mind is that your kids will probably feel the same way about Missy and Timbaland that you do about James Brown.

― Michael Taylor, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Michael: The question doesn't necessarily imply that there's anything anti-musical about turntablism or programming or whatever else. It simply asks why fewer and fewer African-Americans are known for playing traditional "instruments," a trend you largely agree with in your response. And it is a valid and quite interesting thing to think about, particularly in terms of the reversal that's gone on over the past couple decades: Four Guys in a Room rock becoming the posh elitist form and formerly "glitzy" electronics becoming the "real" proletarian one. (This is, for better or worse, the standard life course of any popular form -- see also jazz.)

― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

a)From all I've read on the subject, the public-school funding cut explanation is the one that's made the most sense to me, anyway.
b) R&B is completely cerebral/conceptual now, there's no physicality. Conscious/reactive process?
c)Maybe in a series of condescending gestures, Chuck Berry invented r'n'r and Jimi hendrix invented heavy metal, and they both gave them away?

― dave q, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you are right Nitsuh. I think a lot of it comes down to economics, 2 cheap turntables, a 50 dollar mixer and some records and you can keep a party going for hours(which imho is the root of most black music, and the stuff that us white folks do not hear until the music industry gets their hands on it and mediates it for us).

I think another thing is that the music industry is not interested in selling america images of black people playing instruments. I know a lot of people that play music, but the vast majority of them are not in the business and not doing music that is commerically viable through the usual channels that provide the world at large images of black music(BET, Corporate urban radio and magazines...)

I think if the American music industry at large started promoting groups like The Roots, and other live hip-hop/funk bands instead of No Limit or Cash Money or whatever the ghetto label of the season is, you would see a return to musicianship. The fact of the matter is that as much as we choose to make the assumption: Black=Authentic, commerical hip-hop and R&B music are both very ridgid and mediated genres of music. I think it is disappearing because it is not an image that is being sold to consumers by the mass media industry.

Most images of blackness in America are utterly controlled by a very few powerful corporations(the evil 5, basically). What they choose to tell us black music is, or what they think it is, is what it will be. Not to say that the streets or the underground have no say in the direction of their culture, it is just that commerical music is only a reflection of what is going on.

That is the reason that Detroit Techno has _never_ had support from the majors in this country. It is because middle-class black people making intellectual dance music does not/did not fit Viacom/Sony/BMG's conception of what black music should be. They either wanted a black Pet Shop Boys or they wanted ghetto rap. I bring this up because it is a perfect example of how controlled the images of black culture are, and how few people actually make the decisions about what will represent blackness on a global scale.

Now if there were more Black owned labels which actually had access to local mass media, a chance for even decent distribution in chain record stores, and the ability to get seed money from sources other than the evil 5, you might see a massive shift in the direction of Black music in America. 20 years ago that sort of thing was possible in America, but it is no longer possible for a black-operated indy label to start up and operate outside of the major lable system. AMotown or something similar cannot happen, because indy access to mass-mmedia in the US has been cut off by the majors. If you want to know more about the state of the black music business, you should check out what Chuck D of PE fame has to say, he has a lot of insight and he is on the money about 99% of the time.

As for Dave Q's comments:

I disagree about the public music education. a massive part of black musical expression in the US is through the Church. Yes, public music education has definitely changed the dynamic, but I don't think it is the complete root of why black instrumental music is not being marketed. Rock and Roll is gospel music played fast with lyrics about fucking.

Also, the physical aspect of R&B is still very much in existence. R&B and Hip-Hop is club music, it is meant to be danced to. When you listen to in alone in your living room, you cannot really understand the music in a physical way. If you go to black club or Cabaret and see how people react to the music, you will understand that R&B might very well be electronic, but it is still very music a physical music. Go out dancing one night and lose your inhibitions, you will see what I mean.

As for C. who knows.

― Michael Taylor, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think it's encouraging that gabba DJs like Loftgroover claim Slayer and Celtic Frost as inspirations. This might be a interesting development area.

― dave q, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No, I do think there's something to the education argument, particularly with regard to conventionally jazz instruments. Public school music programs are an ideal way to get access to and instruction on instruments -- woodwinds, horns, and in some cases strings -- that aren't as vital to church music, which emphasizes vocals; a vast majority of r&b singers say their careers started in churches. A school program can give a kid a trumpet or a saxophone or a clarinet, traditional canonical instruction in how to play it, a broader understanding of canonical musical conventions, an understanding of the basics of written sheet music, and a background in precise ensemble playing, all of which he or she may supplement at home with less traditional musical approaches. The canonical background plus a desire to break free of it -- exactly what such programs create -- is a sure recipe for jazz, or if not jazz then some other fairly sophisticated musical form.

― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I always thought that Suicidal Tendencies and Infectious Grooves were to blame for rap-metal. I mean, I really like Rocky George and all, but damn, Korn and Limp Bizkit even sort of look like white versions (i.e. non-Hispanic/Black) of ST.

And there are plenty of Black downtown jazz people--from Matthew Shipp to Charles Gayle--not to mention William Parker and Cassandra Wilson's sideman Brandon Ross, and the bassist formerly of Henry Rollins--whassis name... big guy... they're in a band together called Harriet Tubman, which is so awful that I can't even put it into words. They're like DJ Logic's group, only with fewer people. What is it with these fusion session drummers?

― Mickey Black Eyes, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A school program can give a kid a trumpet or a saxophone or a clarinet, traditional canonical instruction in how to play it, a broader understanding of canonical musical conventions, an understanding of the basics of written sheet music, and a background in precise ensemble playing, all of which he or she may supplement at home with less traditional musical approaches.

This is exactly how it worked for me; I was learning violin in elementary school so I learned how to read music and stuff, but I hated the violin and chucked it and got my parents to buy me a guitar. Would I have cared about playing music at all otherwise? Maybe, maybe not.

― Kris, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Michael Taylor seems to be saying that hip hop has been imposed upon black people by major labels.

I find this to be a very weird argument.

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why do most kids want to make music?

a) To get rich.

b) To get laid.

In 2001, which form of music is most likely to lead to the achievement of these goals?

Avant-garde jazz, or hip-hop?

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

How many noted white musicians that actually play an instrument are there these days?

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 6 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

American public schools don't have music programs anymore? There have been nasty cuts in Ontario but I don't think it's gone that far yet.

Ben: I'm with you on your second post but your first seems dubious. I don't think I've known anyone who's actually taken up music for those reasons. It really seems like there are more reliable and less practice-intensive methods of getting rich or laid than learning an instrument.

― sundar subramanian, Thursday, 6 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Too many!

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 6 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Michael Taylor seems to be saying that hip hop has been imposed upon black people by major labels. I find this to be a very weird argument.

Hey Ben,

No, what I am trying to say is that the direction and marketing of the music is being imposed upon black people. There will always be an underground, and new ideas will always spring from it. What becomes cannonized and what is pushed is what I am talking about.

All I am asking is who controls the money(I mean big money, 7-8 figure label startup money), who controls access to mass media, and who controls the distribution channels?

Is Britney Spears being imposed on white people? (undoubted yes, at least for the last couple albums) Would the corporations who sold little girls Britney Spears sell the urban market something like Ja- Rule in a very similar fashion?

The corporate music industry sell music like laundry detergent and Coke. Without a doubt they use the same tactics and strategies. Would the control of money, publicity, and distributon not have an effect on the general direction of a musical culture(especially one as traditionally dependant on media images as African-American culture)?

Do you see where I am coming from?

― Michael Taylor, Thursday, 6 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'especially one as traditionally dependant on media images as African- American culture'

The downside of the struggle for 'visibility'?

― dave q, Thursday, 6 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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