Kristeva, Cisioux, Durst?

Maybe the straight white males who are praised for 'lyrical acuity' are just "tomming", trying to be accepted as being 'as good as' gay men, or women!

Susan Faludi writes about the crisis of the male in society. A) mildly so. B) that doesn't mean I have the slightest sympathy.

Leave the Indians out of this!

huh?

(kerry refers to my — gratifyingly resurrected — cixous gag, sterl)

I think I get what you mean, like, Tony Iommi as seminal artiste - System of a Down, Linkin Park a palimpsest of the 'true male writing' -

Discomfort, endlessly has pulled itself upon me
Distracting, reacting
Against my will I stand beside my own reflection
It's haunting how I can't seem...[sic]
Linkin Park, 'By Myself'

But I would like to know, what is the relationship of 'The Smiths' and K Records music to this 'true male writing'? I suspect there is a connection more sinister and close than we have imagined ... to investigate this is the task of the true male critic, though.

Y'know I think if I try to mix up Kristeva & her chora semiotique w/rock music and lyrics, it's more along the lines of how the words themselves become musical (like on the David Bowie thread when I was talking abt the thudding unaccented sound (& thus extremely suited to the song) of 'don't look at the carpet / I drew something awful on it.' Like there's something more than the logical meaning of the words which you can hear b/c of how they're chosen, arranged, and delivered. Plus w/neither Kristeva or Cixous is there an essentially feminine or masculine way of writing!
I suppose you could say insofar as a lyric doesn't bother about whether it sounds musical & tries to pin down every bit of its angst & at whom that angst is directed, that'd be yr logical (masculine-associated) side. And if feelings of 'militant self-absorption (mixed with baseless hostility)' can be clearly & completely expressed for males in the words that are available (I dunno, a la Linkin Park "SHUT UP WHEN I'M TALKING TO YOU!"), the connection between nu-metal lyric & angry male singer will be ever more solidly reinforced.
Personally, to be flip for a minute, I think these angry boys have got something repressed all right but it's going to take something more challenging that "look how loud I can scream/my guitar can go" to really put it into music. Or maybe they are just all repressed in the exact same way? Reminds me of Xgau observing if yr despair at recent world events is soothed by crap like Enya, well, how despairing can it really be?

I don't think this breed of lyricism is criticized as much for being "relentless sulky introspection" as it is for being inefficient relentless sulky introspection -- i.e., said lyrics tend not to be very acutely or insightfully introspective, and even more often they're too self-aggrandizing or whining for any valuable introspection to go on in the first place.

People tend not to criticize Mark Kozolek's "relentless sulk introspection" with Red House Painters in quite the same way that they level this attack at the crunchy rock bands on the radio -- the difference being that Kozolek is better at using it in ways that are evocative, that can be empathised with without adopting the self- centric worldview of a 12 year old (more like 22, for Kozolek), that seem to have come through the navel-gazing with something valuable to point out*. The self-aborption of nu-metal is more like cock-gazing than navel-gazing; it screams "Me me me this is how I feel" as opposed to the "This is how I feel but why?" that gets better critical responses out of people.

* Arguments can be made that Kozolek's M.O. is just as dull or irritating than the standard rockers, but it must be admitted that it's going on on a thoroughly different level.

'said lyrics tend not to be very acutely or insightfully introspective, and even more often they're too self-aggrandizing or whining for any valuable introspection to go on in the first place'

Maybe 'acuteness' and 'insight' are the values of the aforementioned establishment though! Also, can ANY introspection be 'valuable'?

Just because something is an established value doesn't mean it's wrong, Dave. What I'm talking about is the difference between a thoughtful mature person's introspection -- the sort that might result in something worthwhile learned about the human condition in general -- and an uncritical, immature person's introspection -- the sort that results in nothing but statements of nu-metal fact: "I am angry!" "I am dissatisfied!" "I feel put-upon!"

And note that I'm not saying the latter type is universally bad or useless, or that the first type is universally preferable -- I'm just saying that this is the distinction are making when they criticize one but not the other.

"wehn you're drowning you don't say 'well i'd very much like it if someone came and helped me out here' you scream for your bloody life" - john lennon

Do nu-metal lyricists strike you as penning stirring, anguished, honest cries for long-withheld help? Or are they maybe in the slightly more pitiable position of sounding like young boys whose internal cries for help are sublimated into self-aggrandizing hostility, paranoia, and neurotically-falsified intensity, all centered around insecurities and deep fears of powerlessness?

Again, this is not so much a value judgement as a distinction.

Yes.
Well, er.. lots of nu-metal lyrics sound pitiably simplistic because they're simply not very well written, and there are all sorts of reasons for being incapable of writing a good lyric. One of these reasons is, possibly, seeing music as excuse to scream 'f-you' a lot because you're an angry person who isn't so hot at actual communication with actual people. So I don't think one can set the hostile lyricist against the crying-for-help lyricist and somehow pick out who seems more authentic and honest than the other. Rather than work on an honest/dishonest (sublimated) opposition, I think I tend to feel a bit sorry for 'em all because they think screamy nu-metal songs = the way to vocalize/exorcise all this baggage. NIN really took this stuff mainstream, Reznor deflects all criticism of badly-written lyrics by turning a matter of aesthetics into a question of honesty/dishonesty.

Why do people always assume that the hostility in these songs is groundless? That's the 'repression' I mean!

WTF, Dave? Daria and I both assumed that it's perfectly well grounded, just that it's not coming across in an aesthetically productive way. Just because someone has a reason to be pissed off doesn't mean it's going to be fun to watch them do it.