Sexlessness

This is going to be impossible to untangle, insofar as it's difficult to know when "sexy" or "sexless" actually refer to sex and when they're being used in that generic sense -- e.g., new cars or laptops or certain scholarly books I work with all being called "sexy" as a means of saying "exciting," "attractive," and "intriguing" all at once.

That wasn't, by the way, meant to dismiss the discussion. I'm hugely curious to see where it goes -- I just meant that I have no clue where to start untangling this one.

I have found, from personal experience. That this is one quantifiable instance that one can ascertain whether or not a specific piece of music can be labled under these nomers:

I have found, from personal experience, that there is one quantifiable instance that one can ascertain whether or not a specific piece of music can be labled under these nomers: IF YOU CAN FUCK TO IT, IT'S SEXY.

I don't want to take this subject on - it's too big - but would make a few observations:

- as a musician who gets called to play varying styles I'm very conscious that some styles don't interest women. Frankly I'm less interested in playing these styles (I need more money before I'm interested) - an audience that has a reasonable mix of the sexes is generally a more civilised and interesting audience.

- the kind of music that appeals particularly to guys does not seem to me to invert sexual stereotyping - quite the reverse in fact. It often involves a fantasy element sexual display that turns women off precisely because it contains fantasies of triumphalism and dominance. The "rock gods" in the band don't lack for female attention because they have star status to back up their preening: for the "ordinary guys" in the audience it is inappropriate behaviour. For the duration of the concert or album they can dream, but it's not a dream their girlfriends are interested in or want to encourage.

- Criticising music because it's not sexy (usually) merely notes the absence of one positive quality. To assume that the critic is implying that sexiness is a sine qua non for good music is too literal an interpretation. When we criticise a book or a movie (or even a genre) for being humourless we don't mean that all movies need to be funny.

Even if we put critics aside (and I do think some of them are that literal), I think one can safely say that a good deal of pop music seems to have a relatively sexual focus, even if we just go by lyrics alone. I'll even go out on a limb and bet that when Nitsuh said Duran Duran sounds like raunchy sex, he meant it in a different way than when he calls his textbooks sexy. It does seem to be a quality highly valued and sought after in popular music, music that often surrounds us through much of the day. Why is it something we need to hear that much? (I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. I just think it's an interesting question.) Is it fundamental to our appreciation of any music?

Arf: OK but remember that Eddy included, whether erroneously or not, hair metal as "music for girls" and death metal as "music for boys." (Whether the first classification is correct, I would say the latter is to some degree.) Going by lyrics and stage presence, the former would seem closer to the macho fantasy sexual display you mention, which I was hinting at in my last question. The latter usually avoids any overt discussion or display of sexuality, unless it's something like the horror of necrophilia. Similarly, fist-pumping hardcore punk bands who sing about anarchy (or feminism, in the abstract of course) avoid overtly sexual themes. Do you think there is some sort of sublimated fantasy of sexual dominance going on? Or a gynophobia of some sorts?

Henry Rollins.

Discuss.

The French classify champagne as either masculine or feminine: Dom Perignon is the masculine ideal and (apparently; it's not like I've ever tasted it) it makes transparent the actual process of making the stuff, such that things like the soil, the yeast, the barrels, the grapes, and such are transparent the taste. On the contrary, Krystal represents the feminine ideal and is (again, apparently) like tasting delicately carbonated air.

I think the notion that all music plays out sexual narratives is a little simplified. I think "masculine" genres like death metal and hardcore emphasize an asexual (perhaps playful) violence that is in a sense a prepubescent, boys fighting in the sandbox kind of thing. For what it's worth, I always assumed Joe Carducci was either gay or asexual.

From a societal standpoint, sex is the most immediately attractive (and marketable) thing related to falling in love. A good deal of artists who see music as some sort of romanticized expression through song tend to regard "love" as the ultimate well to tap. Consequentially, many consumers of pop music have grown accustomed to these ideals. Since pop is largely aimed at a teenage demographic (where relationships, loss of virginity, emotional turmoil, etc. is the thing), sex stands as the most immediate and visceral part of love. Because of this, "sexy" is often treated synonymously with R&B/Pop production values (R&B = sex equation debated on Nelly Furtado thread).

More contemporary and implicit than death/hair metal is the boy/girl division of jungle and two-step. The grating basslines and merciless darkness of techstep is generally believed to be an all-boys club. When two-step changed the flavor with crisp R&B (read: sexy) sensibilities, girls supposedly came running (and boys followed). There is the stereotype that boys are the sexual aggressors but another stereotype says the girls are the emotional/love-interested ones. Perhaps the understanding of sex, as represented in music, is not the same for each gender? Maybe girls tend to see sexual music as an emotion-driven peak while boys just wanna get their freak on.

For the hardcore/deathmetal/techstep kids, what if sexiness was simply a foreign concept? Aggression and force can characterize male sexual dominance without involving any notion of sexiness (which implies subtlety and refinement. Both arguably absent from "male music".). I mean... in general, rape is not sexy but there's still an element of male dominance.

Another cliche that often seems to be true: girls like to hear something they can sing along to when they go out, whereas boys like something they can nod/bang their heads to. What does this say about respective approaches to social behaviour and communication skillz0r?

I kind of intuitively agree with Chuck Eddy - we like a lot of the same things - but at the same time, it affirms this system where women = sex. I tend not to like 'serious' things - perhaps subconsciously I associate that with the status quo and think humor is more destabilizing. If you look at the 'wank' scenes, like here in Chicago, they're mostly guys and largely serious. Do I want to see women assimilated into that - i.e., becoming 'one of the boys', becoming invisible? I'm sorry, but I ultimately have to say 'no', because I'm looking at the larger picture - it's the old 'reformism' vs. 'radicalism' question: the old models have to be questioned. The thing is, I'm wary of setting up new rules whereby a woman can be chastized for not being 'sexual' enough, or where no music can be 'cold' or 'asexual' or detached (which can be as artificial as anything else : i.e. some kinds of technopop). So perhaps 'artificial' vs. 'natural' and 'authentic' is the real key here.

"Maybe girls tend to see sexual music as an emotion-driven peak while boys just wanna get their freak on."

Interesting that the phrase "get their freak on" as used to describe boys' relationship with / attitude to sex by Honda should come from a song written by a woman?

When someone describes a song as 'sexy' I tend to infer that they mean it is in some way exciting and not necessarily arousing in a sexual way. The words 'seductive' or 'sensual' though would suggest to me a much more literally sexual dimension to the music (The Strokes are 'sexy' where D'Angelo is 'sensual' and Air are 'seductive' perhaps?). 'Sexy' is a massively over-used pop cultural term anyway, in much the same way as 'cool' is, and it's meanings are myriad and minutely ambiguous. We know what the differences are, but they are so tiny, delicate and important that to define them linguisitically would be almost impossible.

As ever it's also massively subjective. I'm sure a lot of people, both male and female, consider Bryan Adams to be 'sexy' on many levels, literal and metaphorical. And it would be rude of me to state categorically that they're wrong, wouldn't it?

Well... you got me there.. the phrase is too referential and vague so I probably shouldn't have used it.

Still..would girls and boys react differently to the phrase "Get ur freak on"? Abiding by the appropriate stereotypes, girls would equate it to "Time to be sexy" while boys would think "Time to move in".

Also.. we're talking about stereotypes which a person like Missy Elliot could easily break.

Is there perhaps an element of what might be termed 'sexiness' in music (as opposed to laptops and Audi TTs for example) that implies a sense of losing control and giving in to more base and primal sexual drives? Hence 'get your freak on' = to lose control?

Are women perhaps less likely to lose control in this way for some reason? And is that reason biological or cultural in origin? Do teenage girls at Westlife/Blue/Take That/etcetera concerts actually experience a level of sexual arousal or is it rather some kind of heightened emotional state, hysteria? Are they able to get into this heightened state because they know that deep down there's not actually any real danger of Jason Orange fucking them and therefore their fantasy can carry itself to awesome levels of mentalism without ever reaching the emotionally scary and potentially dangerous territory of Real Sex With Boys?

Why are most people in this country so scared of sex anyway?

In her influential writings Susan McClary has argued that sexual narratives, usually reflecting patriarchal conventions, are related and constructed in music, including classical music.

Susan McClary = the twaddlemonger who claimed (with no evidence other than her own superimposed agenda) that Beethoven's 9th is a rape, right?

I prefer to step back a few paces and simply say that music invokes eros, myself.

girls like to hear something they can sing along to when they go out, whereas boys like something they can nod/bang their heads to.

There have been studies done on how pop music's vocal compass is intentionally targeted for the most comfortable range in the "typical" female voice (say, the octave starting on middle C). Obviously, that doesn't explain why women feel more comfortable singing in public in the first place, though I might advance the idea that puberty has something to do with it..."when it's time to cha-ee-a-ange!"

Sundar: I was about to object to that Duran Duran comment being attributed to me, but then I remembered the video thread. I thought I was kidding then (and speaking more to the videos than the songs), but it's completely true, down to the throaty moan underneath the chorus of "Hungry like the Wolf."

Sexlessness of hardcore not entirely gynophobic -- more of an attempt at profundity by rejecting the massive attention to sex/fun among the masses. I.e., "You can't think about anything but falling in love or getting laid, but we are talking about Big Important Revolutionary Ideas!" (Problem is that so many think just talking about these things creates profundity; I'll pay more attention to a Serious Intelligent Statement than a Fun Sexy Diversion, but I'll also take a Fun Sexy Diversion over a Serious but Ill-Informed Dumbass Statement anyday.)

The above is not meant to imply that sex cannot be addressed as a Serious Important Part of our Lives -- it's just that this is tricky and few attempt it, and of those who do attempt it most go off course and wind up being either creepy or laughable.

what are girls getting out of hearing Def Leppard chant "Legs! Thighs! What's that spell? WOMEN!"? I guess you already knew this but it's the sound of the music. Girls like exciting sounds too, sometimes. That is, just before they go out, after they've spent the evening reading something very un- abstract like 10 steps towards better legs and thighs in Cleo.

I am thinking as a very general, blanket sort of statement in response: in some way, the more you worry about what people will think of you based on your tastes in music, the more you'll be pushed to seek music of a particular style/genre. Y'know, I'm thinking of the Pet Shop Boys "New York City Boy": "When you're a boy, some days are tough/Lying on your bed playing punk rock and stuff." It's maybe more pronounced in the U.S., but there's a real fear for a lot of guys of being seen as not sufficiently tough/masculine & by far the most socially acceptable ways to show interest in music which does, I think, always have some appeal on emotional level (vague! I know), is to: overintellectualize it, be very, very, very angry, or be into bland..uh, bar rock, a la Oasis.
I have a pet theory for a small part of the reason a lot of women vacate the floor during the super- aggressive rock shows or the icy techstep dj sets - A lot of us don't weigh as much! I don't enjoy getting knocked over by punk rockers twice my size or constantly elbowed by some massive guy dancing w/such abandon he no longer notices anyone in the vicinity. Maybe this sounds silly, but at the end of the day, it can just get violent down there by the stage. There prob IS a link to the music: the more aggressive it gets, the more aggressive the crowd gets. The more aggressive the crowd gets, the more I get stepped on, smacked around, pushed, shoved, and possibly take a fall on the concrete floor.

I look like I'm totally sidestepping the question, let me write a bit more: the performer/audience dynamic, well, a lot of rock singers are pretty sexy, there is something in music which seems, to me, to get to desire, what can't be articulated in language (am currently fixated on Julia Kristeva & that's where this comes from).. Somehow it seems to get focused on the singer, too, a point at which you have an almost-telos (a person using language) of the song and yet so much more which is inexpressible in words being centered on him. Can be powerful, I think.
But if that holds, how are the guys who are straight gonna deflect all that energy? Ask Stan...

maryann: I'm taking it as a given that if you didn't like the sound of the record you wouldn't even be listening in the first place. But the words are on the record. Presumably, some level of thought was put into including them and they are supposed to be suited to the music and performance (or vice versa). If this is "music for girls" (and it at least wasn't "music for boys") how are the girls and women in the audience responding to it? If what you're saying is that they are entirely tuning out the words and getting a meaning out of the music that has no connection to the meaning implied by the words, then that raises interesting questions - what are they getting out of it? That's what I'm asking. (FWIW, I don't think I really noticed the words the first time I had the album.)

Well, I was consulting a memory of my French friend who loved Def Leppard, when we were 14. We used to kind of play it really loud and do handstands and stuff on the back lawn. I think we just thought it was kind of mature. Well, I didn't, I was already into the Ramones, but I really liked her so I pretended to like Def Leppard. So, I think she just liked it because it sounded naughty. So it was a combination of 'sounds your parents won't like' with 'words your parents won't like' and 'simple catchy pop tunes' - God I'm sorry to make it so simplistic, but there you are. Same reason all us girls listened with great pleasure to 2 Live Crew a couple of years later. I mean, we thought 'We Want Some Pussy' was so great, and played it my friend Madeleine's car over and over again, singing along loudly! Nowadays, I'd probably feel horrible about that song. YOU SEE THAT'S WHAT SUCKS ABOUT BEING 'IN THE DOMAIN OF THE STRUGGLE'. You get worried about boys actually thinking the things in those songs ... up until a certain age, what the fuck do you care what boys think of you? The words just sound naughty and funny.