Taking Sides: Pet Shop Boys vs. New Order

blue monday biggest 12" ever
and a football song is their most famous wtf?

but currently, i'd say pet shop boys because i've just spent a lot of time with the PopArt DVD. when will new order put their videos out on DVD??!?!

But I guess a lot of reasonable people do so maybe it's just me.

I guess their styles are fairly similar (though something about PSB's campiness bothers me--New Order could be campy too, but it never felt so intentional)--technically they're both emotional 80s dance-pop. But qualitatively...there are at most five Pet Shop Boys singles that I like as much as my least favorite New Order single. And comparing best to best, it's not even a question.

I Main Entry: camp
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by homosexuals
2 : a homosexual displaying camp
3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or out-of-date as to be considered amusing
4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical

I guess the PSB could fit in these definitions of camp (except maybe 1 and 2; I don't think they were overly effeminate, especially for the '80s) but to me all these qualities are part of what makes them good.

I would be "Disappointed" for me (I must admit it sounds a lot more PSB than NO to me). I also really like "Getting Away With It".

Still, I can't decide.

Also, the correct answer is "Patience of a Saint" even though "Get The Message" is the best song Electronic ever recorded.

Neil Tennant had been a pop music journalist/editor before starting PSB; presumably he had a chance to think about what sounded good or bad. But yes, it is staggering to remember that "West End Girls" was their debut.

And I do think "West End Girls" was PSB's finest moment.

"Rent"
"Jack The Lad"
"You Know Where You Went Wrong"
"I Want A Dog"
"We All Feel Better In The Dark"
"Some Speculation"
"King's Cross"
"One More Chance"
"Two Divided By Zero"
"Love Comes Quickly"
"Don Juan"

Can You Forgive Her?
Love Comes Quickly
I Don't Know What You Want...
How I Learned To Hate Rock'n'Roll
Miracles
So Hard
What Have I Done To Deserve This?
I Want A Lover
This Must Be The Place I Waited Years To Leave
One And One Make Five

"I will really never understand anyone who puts PSB even in the same league as New Order.

Amen. I mean c'mon, seriously.

(ducks)

OMG YES

Also "Yesterday When I Was Mad" and "I Wouldn't Normally Do THis Kind Of Thing"!!!!!

"Like Christmas time
When you were a kid
Say you love me
Say you always did"

It's the way he sings those last two lines which causes a sudden lump in my throat.

But, since so much of this has been focusing in on PSB, now the credit back to New Order and Barney's own perfect moments -- the end of "Regret":

"Just wait till tomorrow
I guess that's what they all say
Just before they fall apart."

ARGH and it's sung so perfectly ARGH...

I like NO, but I find them very overrated. Lyrically, Neil is about 1000X superior and Bernard's voice is pretty bad (which makes "Elegia" perfect!). Musically, when they get it right, they really hit it, but they have a lot of tentative and under-developped moments as well.

Dan I agree with you about Alternative ("Shameless"! "Some Speculation"! "Hey Headmaster"!), but I think the best PSB albums are Very, Behaviour, and Bilingual.

I think I like PSB more, though, really. They just do that melancholy/melodrama shit so well.

Missed the top 10 it may have, but I have recently realised that "I Don't Know What You Want But I Can't Give It Anymore" is absolutely perfect. How it only seemed "OK" at the time I have no idea.

Fucken right. That bit after the intro just before the vocals come in where it suddenly goes all minor key and sad for the first time, and the rising string bits before the chorus make the hairs on my neck stand up. I didn't realise it was so recent when I first heard it.

Also the video is great.

But my answer is PSB b/c I don't care for the first five years of New Order's output; their window of great radio singles was far smaller than PSB's. Also, Bernard Sumner never came up with a verse like this:

I'm always hoping / You'll be faithful / But you're not, I suppose
We've both given up smoking / 'Cause it's fatal / So whose matches are those?

"Chris came to me, and said I've got this great idea for a song. It's sort of like an oompah band. Well, I said no, and we forgot about it. A couple of month later, we turned the radio on and out came oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah-oompah < tune of 'Blue Monday' >."

btw 'West End Girls' wasn't the first single, it was 'Opportunities', wasn't it? It only became a hit with the re-release. (Although this is even more incredible, since it's a better song.)

I saw this tour in Brooklyn last week. I hate to badmouth my elders but Bernard Sumner sucked. Was also very disappointed that Peter Hook was not in the band. I don’t follow the news so that was a surprise. Hearing second hand from someone who knows the band, apparently New Order had bad sound? IDK to me they were just lame.

Neil Tennant has an amazingly flat head but he was great, as a vocalist and as a front person

peter hook hasn't been in new order in 15 years! it's a shame but that's how it is

I don’t know why that is and I don’t know why so many people in this thread are so happy about never seeing him again.. is he a bad drunk or something?

I'm not happy about not seeing him again -- I just heard no audible difference in their sound. The new bloke learned his bass lines. I've seen three times since his departure and apart from the collapse of Sumner's singing they sound fine.

although haha that's a pretty big thing, I'll admit!

The new guy was good and did duplicate the original bass lines, yet… something was missing bc you can’t duplicate the man. But who cares, for me New Order are the records not the live presentation.

otm

So I wasn't able to make Friday's show at the Bowl, but I was there Saturday. Paul Oakenfold warmed up the crowd. New Order played their set first (apparently the bands are alternating spots), then more Oakenfold, then Pet Shop Boys. It was . . . well, shit, it was amazing. New Order opened with "Regret." They played mostly the same set they had played the night before, but substituted "Decades" for "Sub-culture," which brought me to tears. And Pet Shop Boys absolutely brought it, visually and musically. I am so glad I was able to see this show, in such a great venue, with such an appreciative crowd (both nights were sold out, in a venue that seats 17,500). Very positive energy all around. Not bad for a bunch of 60-plus year olds.

New Order's setlist:

Regret
Age of Consent
Ceremony
Academic
Your Silent Face
Guilt Is a Useless Emotion
Bizarre Love Triangle
Plastic
True Faith
Blue Monday
Temptation
Decades

Encore:
California Dreamin'
Love Will Tear Us Apart

Pet Shop Boys' setlist:

Suburbia
Can You Forgive Her?
Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)
Where the Streets Have No Name (I Can't Take My Eyes Off You)
Rent
I Don't Know What You Want but I Can't Give It Any More
Left to My Own Devices
Domino Dancing
Love Comes Quickly
Losing My Mind
You Were Always on My Mind
Dreamland
Heart
It's Alright
Vocal
It's a Sin

Encore:
West End Girls
Being Boring

I don’t know why that is

hook & sumner had always kinda hated each other but permanently fell out sometime around 2007, leading to new order breaking up for a few years. eventually the rest reformed the band without hook and with gilbert back in the lineup

I do miss Hooky's glowering presence. He was a big part of their stage persona back in the day.

it's the sort of beef where they've both aired a million petty issues in the press but it's probably telling that the rest of the band can manage to get along with sumner

It is what it is. Missing Hook did not detract from hearing Steve Morris knock out the intro to "Decades." I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

idk that there was even a specific reason for the split either, hook publicly announced he'd quit the band and caught the rest offguard. at the time i think the rest were frustrated with him because he wasn't interested in working on new music like they'd planned?

You have two jerks in the band, one of whom is less politic. He lost.

Hook comes off surprisingly personable in interviews. Sumner generally comes across as awkward.

By the way, props to Pet Shop Boys. Their show is immaculately crafted and superbly entertaining.

Hook's charming as hell and probably honest as far as THAT goes, but these dudes have been snapping turtles since 1977.

Alfred otm

I also remember reading something about Hook's sobriety and Sumner's unwillingness to accept that. I thought, "That may have been la gota que colmó el vaso."

Glad you enjoyed it jimbeaux! Again, I was floored by the visuals by both acts. I had a great seat, but I imagine the visuals were especially helpful for those further out and more than made up for the distance. They really know how to make the most of a large venue.

We had decent seats--section D, which is pavilion level 1, row 15. These days, I almost never go to a show that I can't get up front for, but this was an exeption.

I saw them in Minneapolis last weekend and it was indeed a great show. Pet Shop Boys came on first and were just incredible. I was surprised how good Neil sounded throughout. It was close to a perfect set. I didn't expect songs like Can You Forgive Her, I Don't Know What You Want and So Hard (especially the latter as Chris apparently never liked it). I would have maybe swapped out Dreamland for The Pop Kids, but I can't complain really. They nailed it and it was worth the wait.

New Order were better than I thought they would be. Bernard's voice can sometimes be an issue, but he just about pulled it off. Regret is the perfect opener and made me emotional immediately. Before they did the encore they played True Faith, Blue Monday and Temptation which was almost too much. Your Silent Face was probably the highlight. It sounded huge and the song really works with the limitations of Bernard's voice. Their set wasn't quite as flawless as the two Music Complete songs kinda dragged (especially Plastic). When they did the Music Complete outtake Be The Rebel (I still can't remember how that song goes) you could feel them losing the audience a bit. People got back on board with the hits towards the end. It was certainly a better show than the other time I saw them at Glastonbury 2005. No Jet Stream this time and more importantly, no Keith Allen.

is he a bad drunk or something?

There's a fine anecdote in Hook's NO book about one of the last times the band played with him in it, about Bernard coming backstage or to a wrap dinner or w/e, being grumpy and poisonous and then leaving having taken out his mood on everyone else. Hook bemoans the behaviour, denouncing it personally and professionally, and the crewmembers agree... before one says "but Hooky, when you were drinking, you were worse."

As a person who has listened to at least 100 live new order bootlegs from 82-07, I can confidently say, Bernard Sumner is the leading cause of shambolic live shows and his talent as a live singer is close to non-existent. He can't remember lyrics, he whoops like a hyena (though less lately). Peter Hook ruins the show less often but his late-era obsession with yelling CMON! and his stupid posing are obnoxious to this fan. Bernard is definitely the weak link live, though. The band would be better if he never sang, imo, and just focused on guitar.

He still fucks up the lyrics regularly.

if New Order have MVPs, it's Morris and Gilbert. I've seen them three times since 2016 and each time they'd updated the sonics while playing the same lines -- and they never miss.

Which reminds me of something, honestly. You get people claiming to this day that 'oh it's not the same without Peter' etc. I'd like to know how many of them said 'It's not the same without Gillian' when she wasn't there, and if not, why not.

Ned, I remember watching the Finsbury Park DVD and saying exactly that.

Gillian is amazing. She just does her thing, consistently well.

As for Steve, as my son who came with me that night said, "He is the pocket."

Several pockets and an overcoat.

I can't think of a more precise drummer, tbh. Not only precise, though, but powerful. He drives the bus.

I remember hearing a bootleg from about 85 where Sumner flubs the lyrics to "Face Up"

Don't let anybody tell you what you should do
Because it's not that way
Don't let anybody tell you what you should do
Because it isn't okay

LOL

Yeah that was a fine show and a half last night here in SF. Gotta say that for all the complaints I'm reading here and elsewhere about Sumner's voice...it wasn't that bad? I mean, in comparison, Bryan Ferry has absolutely lost his range, having seen him with Roxy at the same venue a couple of weeks back; while there were a couple of 'woo' moments and it's definitely thinner it wasn't some weird disaster and the whole set was excellent. As were the PSBs -- both of the bands had amazing light/visual setups, it must be said. It was a little funny realizing that Neil was going to be the more arena-rock-frontman of the evening, we got a fair amount of "SAN FRAN-CIS-CO!" moments. NO's set leaned a little more into surprises and reinventions -- that "Subculture" was quite incredible -- but the PSBs going full imperial phase plus a couple of extra moments made sense for an arena show, really.

My revelation is that he’s doing a bit in “The Perfect Kiss”, which makes me “get” it better

I really liked how PSB built up their visuals. For the first two numbers, I wondered if it was going to be the same minimalist line graphic moving in the background, but then it just builds and builds from one number to the next. The highlight was when it looked like the air around them was rippling. Reminded me of the comics I used to read where the fabric of reality could literally be a fabric that would move around like that.

Yeah, the visuals gradually built upon themselves. I loved the costumes they came out in, including the masks. For two songs, Neil just stood there, holding the mike stand with both hands, not moving, with the mask. Very striking.

Not sure whether they're wearing them at every gig.

https://www.petshopboys.co.uk/media/article-images/1600/2c4aa2bf31c9890bc98a4a33adf12e13.jpg

They looked cooler on stage LOL

Yep, had 'em last night.

would love to see Barney, Gillian, Steven, and Phil done up like that tbh

And Tom just rocking out on bass

went to the first night of the hollywood bowl concerts, my first time seeing either band live. new order were very good and i appreciated the range of material they drew from (also the 'california dreamin'' encore was an unexpected and fun surprise), but the PSBs, who played first that night, were just INCREDIBLY good - i actually got choked up more than once during their set. a friend remarked afterwards that he wished they'd rolled liza out during the "losing my mind" cover, and i was like "imagine the sound of 10,000 gay men's heads exploding in unison" lol

iirc gillian drew the biggest applause when bernard was introducing the individual band members

I must say, having seen PSB three times in one of their biggest and most persistent American markets (i.e. South Florida, their energy and performances have never waned.

*close parenthesis there

How many of you other folks had never seen either act before? NO has been solid the last several times I saw them (twice with Hook but not Gillian, iirc twice with Gillian but not Hook; no sonic difference between the two line-ups, fwiw), but PSB have been great fun every time I've seen them. Maybe five times? Always great lights, always great set lists, always great costumes. I'm glad so many folks are turning out for this tour!

It was my first time seeing Pet Shop Boys, and my first time seeing New Order since 86.

xp It was my first time seeing either.

First time seeing PSB and my second time seeing New Order.

Was anyone else hoping for Getting Away With It during one of the sets?

When I last saw Johnny Marr he actually did "Getting Away With It."

Yeah, same here. Per a comment from Daniel Barassi aka the legendary BRAT of Depeche Mode webmaster fame, apparently the only time it's ever been done 'properly' ie with Bernard, Johnny AND Neil were the opening shows they did for Depeche at Dodger Stadium in 1990. Which...I was lucky enough to see and remember very well.

I was there too.

I have seen Depeche Mode more than any other band, New Order is also in the top five. Sold this round of tickets two years ago.