Technically speaking, who is the worst musician working today?

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I mean pure and simple lack of proficiency - which, as we all know, has little to do with quality. Is it Meg White's drumming? Bill Callahan/David Berman singing? Daniel Kessler's guitar playing? Adam Clayton's bass? Etc.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Craig Nicholls voice?

― Brigadier Rainham Steele, Mrs (blueski), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

P. Diddy. Can the guy do/play ANYTHING?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 4 October 2004 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

A winner is Shakey Mo!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Shakey OTM! He can't rap, he can't dance, he's no producer... I guess he's a mediocre-to-decent actor, but that's outside our criteria.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks all, we can lock this thread now.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

even Jandek got skills, bro

― Loose Translation: Sexy Dancer (sexyDancer), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

P-Did throws a hell of a party, though. 'Course there ain't no party like a Jandek party...

― briania (briania), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Jandek + Electric Bug Zapper == an evening of entertainment!!!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

daniel johnston, anyone? (who, by the way, i think is often great, but if you're talking technical proficiency or lack thereof, his guitar playing is way up there)

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Cher is a great entertainer, but she doesn't play any instruments and her voice remains brazenly imprecise after all these years.

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

johnston is a great melodic songwriter - is that considered a technical skill in this case?

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

fwiw, i was talking only about johnston's guitar playing.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:27 (twenty-one years ago)

i dunno - i dont think johnston should count

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Ashlee Simpson's singing?

The drummer from Bitch Slap? ( http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/index.php ) I mean, I've never heard him, but he must be awful...

― wetmink (wetmink), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Janet Jackson has less musical talent than Ashlee Simpson or P-Diddy (though I've liked a couple songs by her in my life, I guess.)

But I nominate Chan Marshall, myself (unless she has talents I'm unaware of).

― chuck, Monday, 4 October 2004 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Daniel Johnston can play the piano pretty darn well, actually.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

whos the band with the parrot as a singer?

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Daniel's voice quite a bit. I wouldn't call it "good" though.

xpost HATEBEEK

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:48 (twenty-one years ago)

How can Adam Clayton be even mentioned on this thread when he's been playing bass for like 20 years?

― Mr. Snrub, Monday, 4 October 2004 17:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Janet Jackson has less musical talent than Ashlee Simpson or P-Diddy
Whua!?
Chuck Eddy...you tin-eared misanthrope...bite your tongue. Janet Jackson is 1000x better than either Simpson or Diddy.
Granted, simpson and diddy are so damned bad that anybody is 1000x better in comparison. Shit, Taco the Wonder Dog is more talented than Sean Friggin' Combs. And it's proof of the essential broken-ness of the universe that Combs is rich and successful while Taco* is probably selling his blood to buy ramen noodles.

* = Shit, even Taco (the guy who did that creepy cover of "Puttin' on the Ritz") is 1000x better than Sean Combs.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah yeah - hatebeak. awesome.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, Taco WROTE "Puttin' On the Ritz".

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought it was a Fred Astaire song or something...?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 4 October 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

ha ha yeah I'm probably 99.9% wrong, I have no idea why I posted that

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh right IRVING FUCKING BERLIN DUH NICK NEVER POST ANYTHING EVER AGAIN DILDY

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

ah, it's Irving Berlin. (well I was sorta close.)

JJ is pretty talentless. Even the songs of hers I like are more for Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and less about anything she brings to them - her voice is very indistinct and flat.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 4 October 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

shes a good dancer - but that doesnt count, eh?

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

to Clarify my previous post, I'm referring to two different musicians named Taco. The first did "Don't do the Squirrel" and the other did the cover of "Puttin' on the Ritz"

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

(head explodes)
I re-read the post you're talking about, L.C.E., and I kind of wish the artist was named Shit Taco the Wonder Dog.
Also want to call bullshit on Eddy's Chan Marshall claim - she has a beautiful voice.

― Taxi Dancing in the Soft Prison (Ben Boyer), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

(cautiously wipes gobbets of Taxi Dancing's grey matter off the front of my shirt.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

John Lydon is still working, isn't he?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Brian Eno has called himself a nonmusician on many occasions.

― n/a (Nick A.), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:21 (twenty-one years ago)

aw man, but lydon is so awesome. i guess the things i like him for are not really technical, but conceptual - but he has written a bunch of really excellent songs.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah - id say eno and lydon are in the same territory, and neither deserves a mention in this category.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I see what you're saying, and I love Eno, but if you go by a strict definition of the thread question, they're both contenders.

― n/a (Nick A.), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Holy shit, I totally forgot about Hatebeak and now I'm laughing like an idiot

'BEAK OF PUTREFACTION', surely there is no better song title

― Michael Philip Philip Philip Philip Philip Annoyman (Ferg), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

Does Lydon deserve a mention if we rephrase as, "who is the worst conceptualist working today"?

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

you should stay outta the lo-fi/"outsider"/indie crowd... questioning jandek (or in the past, the shaggs) and the like is freakin moronic because somebody like him purposely doesn't identify with the canonical ideas of technical standards.

stick with the big names too. jesus... willy nichols playing the bongos on 5th ave for change can't keep a beat, but is he threadworthy?

my vote: miss avril. she doesn't write her own tunes and her tunes are weaker than watery decaf. she's all performer, no musician. her image sells records more than her involvement with the music.

― msp (msp), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

she doesn't write her own tunes and her tunes are weaker than watery decaf

if she doesn't write 'em, why are we criticizing her for their weakness?

and what does writing your own tunes have to do with being a technically good musician anyway?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

cause songwriting talent is technical talent in my mind.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

lydon may currently be a weak conceptualist, but his early career puts him head and shoulders above most.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

There's plenty of great musicians who didn't write their own songs, as well as crappy ones who did write their own songs. But it just feels cooler if they write 'em. (Stating the obvious here.)

― Nowell, Monday, 4 October 2004 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

>somebody like him purposely doesn't identify with the canonical ideas of technical standards<

So Avril (or Jessica Simpson) (or whoever) DOES?

John Lydon is one of the great vocalists of recent times, by the way.

& the you-gotta-write-your-own-songs rule is stupid. Always has been.

― chuck, Monday, 4 October 2004 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

cause songwriting talent is technical talent in my mind.

but it's one of many technical talents. guitar playing is a technical talent, but we're not going to use this thread to criticize drummers because they don't play the guitar, are we? so why should we criticize a singer because she doesn't write?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

(Writing songs IS a musical talent, though, obviously.
And so is singing songs that other people wrote. Just as obviously.)

― chuck, Monday, 4 October 2004 18:53 (twenty-one years ago)

FCF - the point is not to put anyone INTO this category because of their non-primary instrument/skill, but i certainly think songwriting would boot a lot of people OUT of this category. and rightfully so, in my opinion.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)

FCF = FCC = factcheckingcuz

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)

technically speaking, is John Lydon actually "working today"? I mean, he doesn't have a deal with anyone (that I know of), doesn't put out records, etc.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 4 October 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

peter, i agree. i was just trying to defend avril from the accusation that she was a bad musician simply because she doesn't write her own material. that was my point.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 6 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

a-ha! strict vs loose constructivism! ok, i can get down with that.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

can we even agree on any single artist being bad, let alone the worst?

ps - if we can so agree on only one artist, that artist is the worst by default.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:22 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

Is *anyone* audibly hitting bad notes on record anymore in the age of mandatory pitch-correction? I don't think I've heard anyone egregiously miss a note in a hit single since Kid Rock's "Only God Knows Why."

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

autotune takes care of that

...or live, then. I recall catching a bit of a live Hoobastank performance on MTV - whoo boy, the guy makes Anthony Kiedis sound like Morrissey.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, live performances are the last refuge of the sour note. My favorite "holy-shit-she-can't-sing" shockah was Chaka murdering her own "Through the Fire" on this year's VMAs.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I've heard some out-of-tune singing by rappers on the hooks of various tunes. Nothing specific pops to mind though. Well, RZA, but I don't know that he had a 'hit single' off the last record...besides, the RZA and autotune are at naturally cross-purposes.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, Britney Spears obviously can't sing, but these days technology takes care of a problem like that.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

> Chaka murdering her own "Through the Fire" on this year's VMAs

I never got to hear this! Available online anywhere? I love a good wreck.

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

From a hip-hop perspective, I guess most rappers would be considered technically good rappers. Which leaves hip-hop out. Personally I could mention most of them, but it would be hard to choose which one was worst.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Adam Clayton's bass playing is fine. Maybe he's not Jaco Pastorious, but he holds his own.

Janet Jackson may have a talent, but it sure ain't singin'.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

that chaka thing was astonishing largely because it was such a rare moment. oh, and also 'cause she wasn't in the wrong key so much as she was in the wrong universe.

if memory serves, she blamed a cold or a throat ailment or something along those lines.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

joseph: not sure where you can find that chaka moment, at least until mtv replays it, but it was part of kanye west's performance.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I was thinking of mentioning Kid Rock before -- although I'm sure several years of touring have made him competent, I remember him playing on Stern or something - just singing and beating an acoustic with some kind of ham fist, and thinking, you know, holy shit, this guy sounds worse than any given random drunk college kid with an out of tune guitar around a campfire. If he steps away from that Turned Out Trucker Rocker Brown Band or whatever, he's in trouble.

― Taxi Dancing in the Soft Prison (Ben Boyer), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)
the video music awards are good for this sort of thing. axl rose's singing during the gnr performance a couple years back was up there with chaka.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Janet Jackson may have a talent, but it sure ain't singin'.

Janet Jackson has written some really great songs, that is a talent, I guess. Plus at least her voice is better than Britney's.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

No it's not.

― chuck, Monday, 4 October 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Gotta go with Chuck here. I'll take Britney's bizarro-world croak over Janet's weedy whisper any day.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i kind of love britney's voice.

that axl rose performance at the vma's was the most shockingly awful thing ive seen.

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

All this singing-in-tune-in-the-age-of-AutoTune talk reminds me that one of the most endearing moments on a recent record has been Dizzee's off-key singing on "Dream".

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

On the other hand, Pharrel and Andre both prove they sing quite well. So there is a future for Outkast when rap is dead too, then, I guess ;->

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

one of the most endearing moments on a recent record has been Dizzee's off-key singing on "Dream".

OTM!

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Geir, you joker.

― n/a (Nick A.), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm convinced Sean Paul is famous because he's out of tune. It's so cute.

― Loose Translation: Sexy Dancer (sexyDancer), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, isnt the dancehall vocalist's scale like one note?

― peter smith (plsmith), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, it's usually gotta be at least two or three, so they can doo that DUHN diggydiggydiggydiggydiggy DUHN DUHN stuff.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Pharrel's falsetto is overrated.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually I think everyone but Pharrell himself knows exactly how shit his falsetto is.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I kinda miss Beck's singing-out-of-key days.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 4 October 2004 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-x-x-x-post)

Joseph, are you saying Morrissey is a good singer? Because he's often as out of tune as Anthony Keidis, and to my ears has a very annoying vocal "technique", which sometimes keeps me from enjoying some Smiths songs.

― Seb (Seb), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

technical proficiency doesnt mean shit. it's the end product that counts. this thread is stupid.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I still don't see how Bill Callahan is a bad singer.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, that post had me wondering too. Surely Morrissey is or at least was a far worse singer, technically speaking, than Kiedis? Did he even hit a right note anywhere on the first Smiths album?

Lou Reed is still putting out records, right?

double xpost

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

technical proficiency doesnt mean shit. it's the end product that counts.

of course it's the end product that counts, but most musicians use their technical proficiency as a means toward that end. sometimes to a great end, sometimes to an awful end. others, many of whom i like, know how to make their nonproficiency work for them. but that doesn't mean proficiency itself is worthless. that's just silly.

and, besides, joseph made clear in his original question that there doesn't have to be any connection between the two. he was just asking. so what makes this thread more stupid than any other?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate this thread too. It's like all of the worst things about ILX all in one thread.

― n/a (Nick A.), Monday, 4 October 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

really? jesus, i'm sorry. i thought it was just a non-judgemental, low-stakes thread. a lot of people use "bad" musicianship inventively. rock is all about rolling with one's limitations. i didn't intend it to be a "ha ha ha, janet jackson can't sing, the dumb bitch!" thread. and it wasn't, at least until someone took offense.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Monday, 4 October 2004 21:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe this thread has lasted this long without any mention of Calvin Johnson.

― darin, Monday, 4 October 2004 21:32 (twenty-one years ago)

vocals-wise, mike score sounded wretchedly bad during a recent flock of seagulls performance. off-key, terrible tone quality, and he just seemed really out of it.

― pfeffernuesse (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 4 October 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm surprised no one's said courtney love yet. although i like her voice even without all the protools/autotune stuff on it. she can't play guitar for shit, but for the type of music she plays it doesn't matter so much.

― pfeffernuesse (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

well, although i love his work, bob dylan, today, is an awful singer. technically.

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

otm. Which is more important.....technical proficiency or inimitable, singular style?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

COME ON PEOPLE IT SAYS "TECHNICALLY SPEAKING" IN THE TITLE NOT "STYLISTICALLY SPEAKING"

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 4 October 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

to make things extreme, in this thread, celine dion is a better singer than bob dylan. we're into the dark land of tecnnic, not personality or else...

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus christ people, this thread IS NOT ASKING if celine dion is a better singer than bob dylan or if bob dylan is a better singer than celine dion. it's asking, essentially, who has less technical control of their vocal cords.

no one in the universe, not greil marcus, not william hung, not bob dylan himself, could convincingly argue that celine has less control, because she doesn't. bob has less. which is about as close as you can come to a musical certitude. does that make bob a worse singer than celine? of course not, and no one in this thread is making that claim.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Well. I would definitely make that claim.

On the other hand, Bob Dylan has written a lot of classic songs. As for Celine, I think she has yet to write a song at all...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It kind of seems that Bob Dylan did exert a type of technical control in order to choose to sing in that particular style. His voice did have a lot to it in terms of dynamics and timbre, I think.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

No he just opened up his mouth and that's what came out.

― oops (Oops), Monday, 4 October 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Well we can't know for sure.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 4 October 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought oops was being sarcastic?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

of course dylan exercised technical control. the dude is an absolutely pro musician in every way, no matter what people want to think. but celine exercises, and can exercise, way more control. she's got a way bigger palate of timbres and notes and everything else to choose from. that's not an aesthetic judgment in any way. but it's true.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Surprisingly, the correct answer to this question is: Larry Carlton. It's all done with tape edits.

― Jesse Fuchs (Jesse Fuchs), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

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