Fading Out

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I often wonder what had happened after a song has faded out. Had the musicians performed an alternate, more solid ending, and decided against it? Did the musicians trail off at their own rate, knowing it was going to be faded and that it wouldn't matter what they did once they'd played enough repeated choruses? Did the musicians start doing funny things for each other in the end, knowing no-one would hear them? There could be an album of good other-endings called "What Really Happened".

I don't write before I record anything, and I don't play very well, so endings always come about for their own reasons (satisfaction, hesitation, interruption, injury, forgetfulness, a sudden or gradual idea for a good way to stop doing things, mysterious empathy, a shift in hearing, embarassment, etc.). I will often use fades later to decide about and change my memory and impression of the sounds. Sometimes I will try to play more and more quietly to end, to try imitating a fade out, because it won't be the same and I want to know about how the the sounds will lose or change their definition (drums ceasing to ring and turning flat, etc.). If a musician or person from a group would say something about fading their own music out, I would be grateful.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

You know what would be cool? If a CD's first track faded out, but kept on going (perhaps way down in the mix) during the 2nd track, which would fade out but keep on going (along with the first track) during the 3rd track, and so on and so on.

― dave q, Thursday, 7 October 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

As far as I'm concerned, Earth Wind & Fire are still performing "September".

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

As someone who's recorded a few times, I'd say any of your guesses are possible. Sometimes it covers a mistake in the ending, sometimes it's a choice to take out a more elaborate, planned ending, sometimes it was planned that way because there WASN'T an ending, etc.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I forgot a fairly common reason for fading out (at least it used to be) -- old singles (vinyl) were pretty short, so if you wanted to have a longer song it would fade out at the end of side one and fade in at the beginning of side 2. Hence a lot of old James Brown tracks having Part 1 and Part 2, and often having this random-seeming fade out in the middle of a jam.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

daveq - You mean the music would continue in much the same way as it had when it was at full volume, or that whatever sounds happened in real time on the recording after each song faded (people putting their guitars down, smoking cigarettes, doing another take of their part, playing video games, etc.) would accumulate on the CD until the end?

Hurting - I thought it was like that... now I will want to know about each and every song I hear that fades out.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Hurting - Oh, yeah! That's one of the things I love most about James Brown and I had forgotten! When I hear his music, it feels like anything could have happened, and there are probably astounding things that happened and you can't even hear them. Really, if I'd been thinking more clearly, I'd have known that that whole "What Really Happened" idea has already been done perfectly with compilations of his music.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I don't think you're really "missing" much of anything with the James Brown stuff. The reel-to-reel tapes would capture the whole performance, uninterrupted, but in order to format it for a single they had to add a quick fade-out and fade-in. I don't think that much is actually lost -- maybe a second or two.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, but I'm thinking of all the longer, unfaded (or later-faded) edits of his songs, sometimes entire takes, that they've released on compilations like "Motherlode" and "Funk Power" and CD-issues of albums like "There it Is" and "Hot Pants". Sometimes it's not fading but splicing, and I guess for many people now it's Pro Tools. Maybe music-recordings are so much collage now that a matter of a simple fade at the end is not so significant.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

If it weren't for fade-outs, every song would end with "Shave and a Haircut, Two Bits."

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 7 October 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Or "Cha-Cha-Cha!"

― Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

radu malfatti plays as if he is fading but not quite disappearing.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

my band writes and records with fades in mind, because we like the old-school-ness of it, and because we're sometimes too lazy to come up with endings. in the studio, we play whichever part we're fading on for a ridiculously long time, just so we have the option of a really really long and slow fade if we want to. some of my bandmates hate me for making them do this.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

In the case of electronic music, the producer just fades it out over the last couple of loops.

― Wooden (Wooden), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't forget the Duke Ellington ending: (chromatically ascending) Da da da dadadada, BOM!

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a good question! It's something I never really thought about, but now that you ask, I wonder about it too. In all the bands, I've been in, I've only ever faded out a recording once, and it was to cover up a mistake, but we faded out the instruments while keeping the vocals at the same level, so that it was like the musicians were walking away while playing but the singers were still yelling in your ear. But maybe I should record some more fade-outs.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 7 October 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I use a lot of fades in my recordings of electronic stuff, but I try to at least switch to an outro section that is meant for fading so it doesn't feel like I just couldn't think of an ending.

With live stuff like jazz or brass band recordings, I hate fades 99% because it usually means that it's covering for someone's fuck-up (which I'd rather hear!). I can definitely think of a few tunes where the groove is just so heavy that it seems unstoppable, and they had no choice but to fade it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 7 October 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

That's a good idea. If it were amazingly carefully done you could make all the parts somehow interlock with the arrangements of the subsequent tracks. The only people I can imagine doing this are Robert Fripp in a Frippertronics record (which would be easy and simple) or Etienne Charry in a chamber pop epic (which would be as intricate as Chinese puzzles and Russian dolls).

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 7 October 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

sounds to me like a job for the flaming lips.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 7 October 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

All of the songs would have to be metrically related somehow, maybe you could base each song on the looped outro of the one before it. Then the last track could be the sum of these loops.

We realized last night that for this record we have songs thus far in 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 (well, another song in 4 anyway), 9, and um, 23. It might be either neat or very silly to order them by increasing time signature.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 7 October 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

dave q's idea would be pretty easy to do, and sound pretty awesome, with an ambient drone kind of thing, where each track basically adds an element to the previous drone, plays around with that element, then fades it down to be part of the background for the next element.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 7 October 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I have often wanted to make an album in a somewhat similar way (but without the necessary idea of fading), where an element/track of the first piece of music continues after the other elements have ended, and the second piece of music is built from the continuing track, but is constructed in it's own way. The second piece will similarly have one element (a different one) that continues in the same way for the third piece, etc.. Partly, this would be a way for me to hold onto some kind of continuity for the length of an album, as well as letting me hear a kind of continuity that's a simple consequence of me having different ideas about the work over time. It's a little formulaic, but it might be a reasonable acknowledgement of a difficulty I have in this area. The hardest thing will be not developing a dislike for one of the components in the middle to the extent that I won't want to include it.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Another way of satisfying this idea would be to do what I'm often doing now anyway, which is just to build a piece, mix it, and then get rid of all the tracks except one and build it again from there, then get rid of all the tracks except a different one, etc., etc.. The pieces would each be roughly the same length, but that doesn't bother me. It would be good to do this for a reason besides hating how things ended up. This would leave some room for re-sequencing, as well, if something bothered me enough.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess, though, with the second version, there's just less room for hearing how a single element of a piece can change (as an idea), um, horizontally (?) over time.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry if that's all crap, but I'm thinking in public and not so good at articulating.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, I had to double-take to make sure this wasn't about the 1980s SEMINAL LOUISVILLE, KY POST-HARDCORE BAND.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Also "Gotcha!" fade-back-ins or otherwise having music come back in after the fade, C/D

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Interesting topic...I like how CD reissues of things like "Marquee Moon" and "Freebird" added a minute or so to the ends, revealing that there were indeed actual "endings" to songs rather than the familiar fadeouts.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 7 October 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Why are fade-outs so much more popular than fade-ins? "Eight Days a Week", "Orion", "Turn to Stone", and hell, even frickin' "Bawitdaba" or whatever it's called prove that it sounds pretty damn cool.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 7 October 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

They have these - they're called mixed CDs.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 7 October 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

along with the first track

This is the key phrase

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 7 October 2004 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Why are fade-outs so much more popular than fade-ins?

my fave all-time fade-in: the drums on each of the choruses of bowie's "changes."

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 7 October 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

You mean it would keep going during the entire duration of the next track?

xpost

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 7 October 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

"Hand In Glove" (at least one version of it) fades in, hangs around for three minutes, and fades out. The effect is stunning - like the song continues perpetually, and we're lucky enough to eavesdrop on a few minutes.

I've used fadeouts once or twice in my own home-recording adventures -usually because it's the smoothest way to deal with Casiotone drum settings.

― mike a, Thursday, 7 October 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

what about songs that fade out then fade back in again at basically the same stage? the only example i can think of is the album version of "that joke isn't funny anymore".

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 7 October 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I put a bunch of fades in an Iron Maiden bootleg CDR by accident because I was using Pro Tools to smooth over glitches in the recording (and adding some beginning and end fades to fix problems where tracks had single syllables of stage banter missing at the ends or beginnings, etc.). I didn't catch on that if I cleared the audio from a particular track, the fade points would remain in the same positions. When I put new songs to work on in the same track position and bounced them down without paying attention, the resulting tracks had random fades in them. Good job, me!

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 7 October 2004 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

what about songs that fade out then fade back in again at basically the same stage?

In Every Dream Home, A Heartache by Roxy Music does this too, and (arguably) that oldie Do You Love Me? but I can't remember who sings that one.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 7 October 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

what about songs that fade out then fade back in again at basically the same stage

Oh, this one tune on an older Galactic record. It was kind of funny the first time, and then stupid.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 7 October 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

It's pretty awesome on IEDHAH, because it fades out during the guitar solo, and then fades back in and he's still soloing and Eno adds all these crazy WWWOOOSSHHIINNG effects to it and it's like he's been soloing for five hours that they had to edit out by fading.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 7 October 2004 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread will fade out
This thread will fade out
This thread will fade out
This, I predict!

(with all apologies to the Mael Brothers.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 7 October 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, I had to double-take to make sure this wasn't about the 1980s SEMINAL LOUISVILLE, KY POST-HARDCORE BAND.

"You're in my blood... you're in my semen"

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Thursday, 7 October 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others fades in, then out, then in again, and out again at the end.

― derrick (derrick), Thursday, 7 October 2004 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of times when a song with a fadeout is played live the fact that it has to end 'properly' somehow often makes it seem a bit awkward and crap, like it removes some of the ambiguity and gives it too definite an ending. Moz doing 'There Is A Light That Never Goes Out' is one that sticks in my mind. When I saw him he ended on whichever minor chord the first vocal comes in on, and it sounded a bit too melodramatic. I might be the only one bothered by this sort of thing.

I remember saying on some thread that the fade on 'Our Secret' by the Comsat Angels really makes you think it's still trudging on relentlessly somewhere. Same with 'Hero' by Neu! only with more pounding.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip Philip Philip Annoyman (Ferg), Friday, 8 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I just remembered that this subject was discussed in Vox. I'd bet that Nicholson Baker would love this message board.

Shhh. Let's not tell him about it.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 8 October 2004 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Kevin Ayers "Stranger In Blue Suede Shoes" fades out, but just before the sound disappears completely, you can hear the band finishing the song; it just splutters to a halt, with a rather inconclusive piano twiddle at the end. Maybe it was left in because the closing repeat riff wasn't played for long enough to allow a full fade...

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Friday, 8 October 2004 08:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I got a version of Paperback writer (Beatles, obv) where the fade out is not faded, it ends with a fairly interesting jumble of noises, which would 'pass muster' as an ending in the seventies onwards...

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 8 October 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Which songs mention the fades? I think I only know ‘The Final Push to the Sum’ by Grandaddy (‘start the fade right here’).

― Orange, Friday, 8 October 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

One fade out I'm not to fond of is the one by Radiohead, especially when people sing it at open mic nights. (Shudder)

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 8 October 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

They have these - they're called mixed CDs.

So you've bought a Mix CD where the first track was originally 80 minutes long, The second was originally 76 minutes long, the third was 72 minutes long? I think not, sir.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Friday, 8 October 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

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