Careless talk costs lives

I ask because the launch seems low key to say the least.

One of my friends has got a copy, it looks real nice, and if you like stuff about dead people who haven't had a new album out in decades you'll like it even more. Most of the reviews are out of date, though, but with old people that doesn't matter too much!

Did any of my reviews get in it?

Robin Yes RRoland.

Sure it's out, and the reason the launch is non-existent is because we have better things to do with our time than pretend to be asshole marketing people. No disrespect intended. No Lowry cartoons as yet, but plenty of other great illustrators.

I'm confused by the dead people comment: unless, of course, all of Electrelane, Dirtbombs, Mogwai, Cannibal Ox, Peaches, Gonzales, Ned Raggett, Belle & Sebastian, Aphex Twin, Daniel Johnston, Spiritualized, Meanwhile Back In Communist Russia, Acid Mothers Temple, Fucking Champs, The Pattern, Rock of Travolta, Herbie Mann, Marianne Nowottny, Miss AMP, French Kicks, Le Tigre (and so on, through all our other major features and writers) have suffered unfortunate accidents in the near recent past I'm not aware of. In which case, many apologies for being so damn insensitive.

(I guess the remark is a reference to a *one page* article on Alma Cogan who has just had a major retrospective box set reissued: but then, that doesn't tally with the "no CDs released for ages remark". Unless, of course, I dreamt the CDs sitting opposite me right now. In which case, apologies for having such a vivid imagination.

Anyone having trouble finding a copy, either contact me or you can send off for one via our website at www.carelesstalkcostslives.com. I am hoping to post a list of stockists shortly. Cheers.

Sounds excellent. I'll be getting one asap.

But : *Sure it's out, and the reason the launch is non-existent is because we have better things to do with our time than pretend to be asshole marketing people*

Oh come off it Jerry. You should want one in every home - aim high!

Jerry - I know your not a fan of Business School speak/ marketing - but come a few simple decisions could improve the distribution of the magazine, e.g Knowledge magazine (the monthly jungle music magazine) uses Southern / SRD distribution to the Independent Record Stores of the country.

Jerry I wouldn't expect a launch with a bunch of low rent media whores. Anyway I will be putting my order in forthwith.

Mr Dods, I salute you. You have a fine way with words.

And yes, of course we will market it - when the time is right. This first issue is just a little (ish) tease... Isn't anticipation wonderful?

how come the first issue is issue 12?

Because he's counting down issues, I gather. What happens when we reach issue one is anyone's guess.

Issue one is our Year Zero: when we reach that number we will either have replaced the music press (and gone bi-weekly) or gone bust. Either way, we win.

I like the idea of issue Negative One.

Just curious as to people's responses to this now that I gather it is in the public domain... I haven't actually seen a copy yet, but I'll definitely buy one. So far reaction I have heard has been mixed. Any (new) new answers?

i still haven't seen a copy, so i have no idea at the moment...

is there a web site? I couldn't find it through a quick google.

noticed that Rough Trade are selling it on their website.

www.carelesstalkcostslives.com requires a password.

I gather you can buy it in Borders and that the Mogwai feature is too long.

way too fucking expensive for north americans, esp. sight unseen.

Aw, not even to read my wibblings? ;-)

I'd love to buy a real copy for your wibblings & others, just seems like a lot of money to subscribe. is it in stores in the states and canada?

The Mogwai piece *is* too long. I know. I received my free copy (music hack, eh?) today.

To be honest I don't find it revolutionary. Not bad, but far from great.

I saw a copy last night of Local Fanzine Careless Talk Costs Lives. Apoplectically bad. THE STATE OF HIPHOP? Bladdy hell for all it's lauding of SUCH UNDERGROUND! artistes even I (that's me!) had heard SOME of them and I can honestly say I don't even own ONE UK hip hop record and gathered absoLUTELY nothing new. The reviews are of records that came out AGES ago (Low & Dirty Three?) and some are frankly, pointless "next"! And as for the great lauding of FEMALE ARTISTES, you might as well have just printed the psych from The Verificationists shtick about 'Krakower Institute Young Woman of Strength' but substitued CTCL. Immensly patronising. But then again I wouldn't know anything about being a female in these kinds of circles would I. I never bleached my hair or made a loud sound with a geetar (WIMMING IN ROCK RAH ur YES) so I don't count. Women in other genres of music? Are there any? BACK IN THE KITCHEN. But you know, RAH Le Tigre. Some photos were nice, Electrelane in partic. And as for the "rant" about CORPORATE INDIE.... I saw an advert in it for Radiohead and Ash. It's a Corporate Indie Fanzine! Also, the only way a print publication can WORK if it's saying NEW THINGS - not things lifted STRAIGHT off the BLUDDY INTERNET ahem*tangents*AHEM. It made me feel the anger. And yes, too much Mogwai. The fact they are there AT ALL is too much IMHO but feh.

It would have been better if the picture of Mogwai in the loo had shown his winkie. I bet someone will now say 'oh it's doing it's job, it's provoked a reaction'. Yeah, now some more people will buy it, get IRKED, maybe buy it once more and then never again. But WHOOSH crazy kicks whilst it lasted.

The Verificationists: 'Krakower Institute Young Woman of Strength' — what label is this on?

We BUILD EM UP. And then we KNOCK EM DOWN.

Oxford distribution of this zine seems spotty and I didnt get to a non-corporate record shop last time I was in London so I've still not seen it.

Soon I am sure it will be stocked in Tower. Tower seems the perfect place for it to nestle. Mark S I was probably not being clear! It's actually from a book called The Verificationist where's this shrink who always raps on about a waitress being a 'Krakower Institute (nb I may have the name wrong) Young Woman Of Strength' which amused me muchly. The tone in which he talked about Young Womang Of Strength seemed quite analogous to the tone in which CTCL talked about Women Doing Powerful Things By Themselves!

Although I would like to make a record under that name anyway. Apologies if I was incoherent - I've not quite mastered translating PUB REACTION to coherency just yet.

yes, the book is by the supercool Donald Antrim, who nobody seems to like except me (and, maybe, Sarah?)

no you were (fairly) coherent starry sarah: i wuz making a hilarious joke

I like Tangents as it is. I also like it in book form. I don't think I like it as a magazine, but I haven't seen it.

I think that basically it's something that would have been average in 1992 but has little-to-no relevance to 2002. The Wire goes further, deeper, more intelligently - and I like its recent (?) defection to avant-pop; at least it made me want to pick it up after feeling alienated by its uber-obscuranti shit in the late 90s (although I was only 16ish at the time).

Contrastingly, I don't think CTCL would be able to take an intelligent handle on anything that's any more popular than, say, Tortoise. Or anything like, say, the Pay As You Go Cartel - music that shouts NOW in three minutes far more than than a million pages, let alone eight, on Mogwai ever could.

I got it because I loved the (raise your glasses) Old Maker. I'm not interested in the bands they cover anymore, but it could be quite interesting if they covered dance music -- or at least not Ye Old Indie -- in a similar way. But then, the only people I think write about dance music well are Steve Goodman and Neil Kulkarni, Eschun and Reynolds. If they got more people on that wavelength, it could be interesting, but now, despite some of the often excellent reviews (Spiritualised, Techno Animal and Aphex pieces particularly), it seems dead in a way completely analogous to the initial rhetoric; like pop without the fizz of the new, or something.

saw a copy in rough trade. didnt look particulary thrilling. was goingto buy it, but bought the new cassetteboy cd instead which was about the same price, only well funny.

Fuck me, haven't you people got better things to do with your time?

Yeah, write more articles for you. Which I'll be doing soon, actually (fret not Tom, some FT ideas are also on the boil).

steve: this is the internet. time is not the point.

Fuck me, haven't you people got better things to do with your time?

sorry steve, didn't mean to upset or annoy anyone, sometimes i just don't think.

oh, just one thing steve. um, haven't you got anything better to do with your time than come on here and ask whether people haven't got anything better to do with their time?

anyway, pass my regards on to jerry, and apologies once again.

cheers!

Bought issue one yesterday... Then had to go back and buy another copy for a friend. It rocks.

Highlights:

'A Connection Is Not Made'/"Where's Our Piece of the groovy world?"

'The Nu Slutz' - great article on people like Peaches ("hell, there are no women like Peaches, she's a trailblazer"), Gonzales and The Moldy Peaches: "It's not clear who's doin' what to whom, and it doesn't matter. Strap-ons are a part of every hipster's sexual repertoire these days, right?"

The following line, by the author of the above, Miss AMP, and from a live review of Mercury Rev: "It's great that old people go to gigs. I hope when I'm old I go to gigs. Although hopefully by then I'll be sitting in the fucking ROYAL BOX with some cute boy virgin with his face between my thighs..."

The prominent space given to the demo review section.

The magnificent Electrelane centre spread. Glorious.

The way it smells.

The passion. The bile. The general attitude. "Why are you looking at this? Is it because you care? If not, then just fuck off."

Bad things:

The 'state of hip-hop' piece tries hard not to but still falls into an underground/commerical dichotomy, and there's the occasional trying-too-hard/anti-pop vibe. Too many "we hate The Strokes! isn't that subversive?" moments.

BUT.

Overall, the bits that I disagree with in CTCL, the bits that wind me up - they wind me up in the way that the Melody Maker used to what to me was its height... They make me think, and want to argue fervently... They may even end up changing my mind... They don't make me curse myself for parting with the cash (as so often happens with the NME).

It's very necessary.

Can't believe some of the sneering here. At least they're trying.

My problem with it is basically that the fuck-off-then "passion" turns EVERYTHING into an "aren't we subversive?" moment.

Mind you its the same kind of mentality that recasts every line of criticism as "sneering". If you saw the thread where CTCL was originally announced there was a lot of enthusiasm and goodwill towards it - we all wanted it to be fantastic, not just, you know, a bit better than the NME. If you're going to say "my magazine will be the best thing ever and replace the music press" the product has to back that up - mouthy hype was what did for the UK indie scene in the first place, remember?

We are fucking subversive, we're off our fucking arses doing something, how many fuckers just sit back & moan? Too fucking many!

Some copies can be found now in NYC. We still get more bang for the buck from "mojo" I'm afraid. The cropping of the Marianne Nowottny photo is just bad design, but the text about her is the most interesting and well thought-out piece in the magazine. The illustrations add a bit of humor.... Over all pretty cool.

"off our fucking arses doing something": oh haven't you seen what the kids are doing these days on the interweb?

we're off our fucking arses doing something
hmmm posting to a message board?

anyhow what's up with stevie chick? has he completely fled NME and joined Careless Talk Costs About A Pound?

He's jumped ship to Kerrang...

I just find it funny, given the high proportion of music critics/editors (incl. Tom himself, proprieter of one of the GRATE internet pop mags) the "you're not doing anything" accusation can be flung so lightly.

We are fucking subversive, we're off our fucking arses doing something, how many fuckers just sit back & moan? Too fucking many!

dude, i thought i might buy your conservative fanzine, thought you could use the dough. but, fuck that shit man. looks like you doing the moaning, man, just because a few people might possibly have a couple of criticsms of your fanzine. what, you say its not worthy of criticism, thats a pretty low opinion of your fanzine Steve. everythings worthy of criticism isn't it? next time you criticise a record or a band, remember at least they off their "fucking arses doing something"

we all off our asses doing something y'know. making money, having fun, writing shit, doing music. well, except buying indie fanzines out of misplaced charity. get yourself some self-esteem, lighten up, and stop being such an uptight indie fucker. either that, or just surround yourself with acolytes who agree with everything you say. subversive!! yr having a laugh surely?

FUCK ME WE ARE WORRIED EVERETT HAS DONE IT AGAIN..IT'S SHITE..WELL DONE LEG....END XXXXXXXXX

....its good to see a magazine picking up on teen Nico-Nowottny besides "da Wire." I agree with above about the photo. Lets see her face already! tough enough to find the cd's, thats depressing. How about a cd sampler next time of the hard to find stuff?

yeah, apologies Sterling. i felt a bit hectored by the 'with us or against us' tone of that guys post, felt rather GeorgeBushian, i'm not always that good when people come in all agressive and stuff, i feel quite surprised that i actually replied in the same manner!!

yes but.......what about kagafuckinggoogoo?

How could I have ever wanted to write for CTCL?

I think they need a better ad man.

This is kind of amusing. Oh well, the new Organ's back from the printers soon, but in the meantime there's always http://www.organart.com

Back from the printers? Are you doing full paper Organ 'zines again, or is this one of the news-sheet mini-updates?

Organ as in Sean?

Aha! The right thread at last. I've got a copy of issue 12, and I like it. I'll mainly use it as a resource of bands I've never heard of. One thing I didn't like (although with audiogalaxy you can try before you buy) is that a lot of the CD reviews don't say anything about the music, which is a shame. Then again, the writing is top notch so what the hell.

Anyway, without it I may never have ordered my Dirtbombs CD, which then may never have resulted in me getting into "modern day" garage (here's hoping the name will be reclaimed).

Who's in the new issue, then, and how is it?

The new one has the Dirtbombs on the front, and looks really good (the photography in particular, which seems to be given a bit more room this time).

My problem with it is the same as last time really: that it seems to be put together with the assumption that [broadly] alternative guitar rock / pop is the centre of the musical universe. It's therefore not really the magazine for me.

I think the idea of giving several writers a regular, upfront colum is a really good one, and it will only take one or two of those to turn out to be interesting to make the 'zine worth buying on a regular basis. I haven't bought this one yet, just leafed through my publisher's.

Organ as in Sean, Marina and Shaari, yes... Issue 73, this is, and it's evolved again. Back to a mag you have to pay for, and quite a bit of a format change, one we haven't done before. It's something we've been getting ready for a while.

CTCL looks nice. In fact I'm really jealous of their photos, but then they do have Gullick. I want photos but someone nicked my camera a few years back. I've taken to drawing gigs its so frustrating. But there wasnt any room for photos in this issue anyway, Sean tried to fit 80 pages of reveiws and interviews into 40 something, had to save a lot for next time. Still got Sean's famous backgrounds - I reckon some of them have been evolving for at least eight or nine years now, getting text pasted on and torn off and reworked. They're nice things to handle and look at in real life, fragments of band stickers, letters and people's envelope art and whatever. Too much good music going on out there though so you dont get to see it.

Just bought issue 12 (well, u know, things take time 2 reach southern Europe). Loved the passion, the attitude, all those things I found in the good old Maker (1987-1997) and seemed 2 have disappeared from the music press. Love the staples - staples r a good yet underrated thing. Also loved the smell. And the design, and the pictures. Loved 2 learn about some new stuff. ABSOLUTELY LOVED MR AGREEAB..., SORRY, MR SPEAKER!

(But I'd love u even more if, as someone already said earlier, u'd go a little further down the musical route. CTCL needs more electronica, more soul, more hip-hop, more experimental stuff (say, in a Wire kinda way), more dance music, more r&b, more outrageous pop, more music being made outside USA/UK. Diversity suits independence quite well, wouldn't u agree?)

And please, please, please, please, mr True, try 2 bring Taylor Parkes and Simon Price back from wherever they r (and Reynolds and Kulkarni would b so great and cool and stuff).

Anyway, congratulations. My subscritpion is about 2 b made. Love u.

Actuall they have a mini website where you can subscribe online: here (redirects somewhere else). No. 11 covers under others: Dirtbombs, Lambchop, Mark Lanegan, Lift to Experience, Dismemberment Plan, Yoko Ono. Sounds quite interesting. $50 (for continentals) for 6 issues is nevertheless bloody expensive.

The idea of a CD sampler is a very fine one: not giveaways on the front, more like a personal mix CD like The Wire offers subscribers: problem is, physically I don't have enough time and also, having worked within the industry for too long, I'm very suspicious of CD giveaways because half ends up being filler that the record companies force on the compilers.

Other news: CTCL has three new editors to try to widen our coverage and take it away from Old Man Rock - there's Stevie Chick, who's like me only way leaner and fitter, Mia Clarke and Miss AMP (just to please the person who thought she was a "Shampoo reject"). All of whom kick my ass.

We go with what thrills us. So that is in a constant state of flux, and by no means will stay with Detroit garage rock. And hey, there's nothing wrong with scribbling illustrations of live shows - I think that's a fine thing indeed.

Jerry/ET- why all the cropping and blurring of photos? The worst lifestyle/fashion publications use these tricks.....consider going back to the "integrity of the image" or something. Let's see more clear, uncropped photos of the artists. Hand and shoegazin' closeups anyone? More, more, more, not less!

Actually, I fucking hate cropping as well... you'll have to take that up with the Art Dictator when he next appears (which I'm sure will be soon)... but I don't tell him what to do and he don't tell me what to do. It's a mutually benificial agreement.

there is no cropping! (well, a little) the blur is because we were pissed, if you don't like the blur, buy NME........ET, if you object to the blur, you'd better fire me, although as you're pissed too this may be a problem as booze tends to make you a bit soppy. Love, Steve Gullick.

We should have more drunken discussions between editors on this board.

If anyone fancies an honorary post as FT's Drinking Editor for this noble purpose they should apply.

I thought Pete had that by default.

Hiyaaa, been reading this board for a while but I was too scared to say anything. Just wondered if any of you were in the Manchester area and whether you'd consider popping into the Night & Day Cafe tonight to catch 7 Hours. They're not my band or anything, but they're very different and highly entertaining. Blues/rock/reggae stuff. I'll be there on me own like a saddo anyway.

Got hold of #11 and it's actually really fucking good. Broader content, sex-obsessed funny Miss Amp splashed all over the place, no 8 page Mogwai onanism. And they've got hold of Neil Kulkarni. These are all good things.

Neil Kulkarni? I will NEVER read this magazine.

Eh? What d'yer have against him, then?

His writing used to give me hives back when I could stand reading Melody Maker. His attitude always managed to get right up my nose. I found his occasional tone of veiled accusations of racism desperately hard to stomach.

Yeah, that was definitely one of his worst qualities. That said, he liked metal, which forgives many sins. RAWK.

Yes, but Neil's also very funny. Issue 10 is due shortly and should contain even less... er... 'onanism' (although I guess someone's gonna hate that Giant Sand article) and more 'proper' journalism' (whatever the hell that is). Anyone who can't find a copy in their vicinity, drop me a line, with the details of their local cool store and I'll chase it up. We have someone working on the distribution front right now.

Er, if you're abroad (hi Ned) then that sadly doesn't apply right now. But any hints on foreign distributors gratefully recieved.

less onanism = you have sold out already jerry!!

If I knew of good US distributors for UK rags I'd look into it. Although...well, a local store gets in a fair amount of the other UK music mags. I'll ask them who they deal with.

Oh no Mark. I'm still onanisming like crazy

Onanis[M]ing? My goodness!

Well I finally got issues 12 and 11.

I was spot on that it really isn't my kind of thing. I would pay money to avoid Miss AMP in the future. The mogwai article was worse than my worst fears, even the anti-Mogwai rant was just silly.

I liked the Scars article even if it was factually wrong. The fanzine archive thing looked interesting, shame it was filled with The Legend self promotion. I wanted to find out if he had Kingdom Come or Coca Cola Cowboy. Thats about it though.

Miss AMP is a goddess.

So Can 'ee Boiy it down 'ere in Kernow? Probly not, which is a bugger... But Hooray! Demo column! Somebody else to throw tapes at.. Soon everybody will have one. Dance music? Noooooooo! Why do people who like bangy music think EVERYTHING should cover it?! Enough already! We are the Goth White Stripes and we don't care!!! Cover Goth, nobody does, except occasionally The Organ (well, Sean likes us. Unfortunately he likes our insistence on doing DIY tapes rather than Cubasissed CDr's so he hasn't signed us.... Poot.) Cue lots of disparaging comments about THE ONLY TRULY INDEPENDENT MUSIC GENRE!!!! Fun this, innit....

I refuse to accept any criticism of Miss AMP.

There is less onanism in 10, as I did nothing for it.

Issue 10 is actually really good. When's the next one out, and who's in it?

the next one's going to have loads of death metal in. it's gonna be totally skill.

like Terrorizer but with long words.

June 1, and it will be the old fogeys issue. yeah yeah yeahs, bellrays, liars, mary timony, lee hazelwood, the two Kims, ian makaye, Kevin and Billy, EL-P and ...

Kevin and Billy

Kevin Shields and Billy Corgan discussing guitar tones? I'm in heaven already! ;-)

Behave! Oh... and yr copy's due!

Yup! Will have it in over the weekend.

can't you chat somewhere else?

Can't. I'd cry.

Mothburner said: Cover Goth, nobody does, except occasionally The Organ (well, Sean likes us. Unfortunately he likes our insistence on doing DIY tapes rather than Cubasissed CDr's so he hasn't signed us.... Poot.) >

Cubase is for sissys.

The more I think about it, the more I think this magazine should have named itseld 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases (trap the germs in your hankerchief)' instead.

I like 'Dig for Victory'myself.

i think it should be called Monster.

It should be called, "Careless Talk Costs... £3.50"

'It's got to be deliberate, the voice of the common man or some such. Nevertheless, making all allowances--overlooking quotes/references ("eight miles high"), universals ("the rent is due"), attempted wordplay ("a table for one and a broken heart to go"), and simple idioms ("count me in," "white flag," "heaven knows," "it's up to you")--I count an astonishing fifty-six full-fledged clichés on what's supposed to be a significance move, from "caught in the crossfire" in the first line to "the worst is over" in the third-to- last. And while "Only the Strong Survive," the biggest offender with twelve, streamrollers across despite it all, neither Don Henley soul nor emergent social conscience justify the dumbness density. I know the salt of the earth is the shape of things to come, but these words of wisdom are beyond the pale. C+ '