Taking Sides - Sex Pistols vs. Pink Floyd

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i cant pretend to be an expert on either of these ancient bands but i read in the other thread about the article from the guardian that some people think the SPs songs havent dated well but pink floyd have. i dont think ive ever really heard PF in my life, apart from the wall, but i do know the SPs as i went and bought their stuff when everyone was talking about how grime was like punk or something (haha). i think the SPs have dated very well. their singles still sound raw as fuck and john lydon was brilliant.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Saturday, 6 November 2004 13:33 (twenty years ago)

Apples and Oranges. But, I like the Pistols better for a number of reasons.

― maria b (maria b), Saturday, 6 November 2004 13:36 (twenty years ago)

"Apples and Oranges"

The TS motto, but how appropriate for a Floyd thread

― Bumfluff, Saturday, 6 November 2004 14:20 (twenty years ago)

If you've only heard The Wall, that needs to be remedied.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Saturday, 6 November 2004 14:21 (twenty years ago)

note: The Wall = blech!

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Saturday, 6 November 2004 14:21 (twenty years ago)

Floyd! But the Sex Pistols have some good songs too. I don't own anything by either, actually.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Saturday, 6 November 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago)

The Wall sucks. But it might have been unfair of me to say Floyd has aged better, because I just don't like the Pistols one bit and I've always liked Floyd.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 6 November 2004 16:39 (twenty years ago)

What I would say is that for me, something rings hollow for me today about the attitude of the Sex Pistols, where as Floyd's weariness resonates with me.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 6 November 2004 16:41 (twenty years ago)

"for me, something rings hollow for me"

What a retard I am.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 6 November 2004 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Magazine

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 6 November 2004 16:54 (twenty years ago)

'Music for Pleasure'

― dave q, Saturday, 6 November 2004 16:56 (twenty years ago)

# of good Pistols songs: 4
# of good Floyd songs: about fifty

Floyd wins!

Rumour has it Johnny Rotten really is a Floyd fan. The "I Hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt was a publicity stunt. Anybody know more about this?

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:01 (twenty years ago)

i love the sex pistols - i play them quite a lot although the anger can seem a bit over done, but i like the agressiveness and nihilism in their music.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:03 (twenty years ago)

What's with all this Wall hate? I think it's the best-produced album ever!

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:03 (twenty years ago)

the wall vs. off the wall.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago)

was MJ taking a swipe at PF?

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago)

Pistols!

(That felt really good.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:19 (twenty years ago)

Pink Floyd, though I love them both. Also, the Wall may be overblown, pretentious, adolescent etc. but I still love it.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:22 (twenty years ago)

I actually don't get the Wall hate either. I don't like PF in any major way but The Wall seems much more interesting and much less narcoleptic than a lot of their other stuff. I like the stylized mentalism in a lot of Waters' singing (esp "One Of My Turns"), "Run Like Hell" is catchy, "Goodbye Blue Sky" is pretty, and "Comfortably Numb" and "Hey You" sum up most of their 70s music in bite-sized chunks. It's the only PF album I ever listened to on anything resembling a regular basis (yes, when I was 14). I think it was a reasonable response to the bile and angst of punk rock.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:28 (twenty years ago)

Sex Pistols, by a mile. I mean, come on . .

If you restricted it to Barrett era Floyd, I suppose you could make some kind of case, but I still wouldn't be having it. Far less all this late Floyd revisionism. Dreary, dreary stuff.

― Soukesian, Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:34 (twenty years ago)

(I'm still voting Pistols over any period of Floyd, to clarify.)

(But... even worse, I sometimes wonder if Gilmour's Floyd may not have been so bad. "Learning to Fly" is really catchy and it's not so tediously miserable.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:39 (twenty years ago)

I get really annoyed by the 'Barret-era Floyd is the only good Floyd' indie stance. Not because there is anything wrong with that opinion, it's just the fact that it's the required mantra of indie-ness that annoys me.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:42 (twenty years ago)

Fuck all that. Meddle is where it's at.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:46 (twenty years ago)

At the last Toronto FAP Anthony said that Amnesiac was basically a Barrett-era Floyd album and an example of how art-rock hasn't progressed in 35 years. But that seems so wrong to me. To the extent that Radiohead sounds at all like PF, it's certainly the studio-heavy miserable ambient epics of Waters and Gilmour not the quirky lo-fi psych-pop of Barrett.

I should probably give Barrett another chance sometime. Piper sounded like a joke except for "Interstellar Overdrive" when I heard it some 5 years ago. I like Voivod's cover of "Astronomy Domine".

xpost

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:48 (twenty years ago)

I'll confess that I haven't heard Meddle, Ummagumma, or Animals.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:49 (twenty years ago)

Stuff they did between the time Syd left and Dark Side was made is without a doubt my favorite Floyd era.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Saturday, 6 November 2004 17:54 (twenty years ago)

Floyd.

The Pistols hardly had any records! Great band in theory; in practice, don't listen to them.

Floyd are great until (and including) Animals.

It's always the best bands in a genre that get attacked. If Johnny Rotten had worn an "I hate Colosseum" T-shirt it would have looked daft.

― Keith Watson (kmw), Saturday, 6 November 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago)

Pink Floyd

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Saturday, 6 November 2004 18:08 (twenty years ago)

Rumour has it Johnny Rotten really is a Floyd fan. The "I Hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt was a publicity stunt. Anybody know more about this?
I've heard this too, I'm fairly sure that it's true.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 6 November 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Floooooyd.

The dreariness is part of the appeal. Animals, Darkside, Atom Heart Mother, Piper, Meddle, Wish You Were Here, Ummagumma = all classic. The Wall is just too damn long.

― Ian John50n (orion), Saturday, 6 November 2004 18:26 (twenty years ago)

Late to this. Actually love them both. Despite the obvious "apples & oranges" comment, it should also be noted that there is more to judge the `Floyd on than the `Pistols (being, of course, that there is only that one LP and a clutch of singles and outtakes to their canon).

I actually quite dig the Wall despite its inarguable pretention.

Johnny may have indeed hated Pink Floyd, but when I saw PiL at the Palladium on the tour for Album, the first song the band played (without John onstage) was "Kasmir" by Led Zeppelin.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago)

when I saw PiL at the Palladium on the tour for Album, the first song the band played (without John onstage) was "Kasmir" by Led Zeppelin.

But that was the PiL album that provoked (dumb) reviewer lines like, "Led Zeppelin is cool again." By that point the cat was out the bag.

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:07 (twenty years ago)

Rumour has it Johnny Rotten really is a Floyd fan. The "I Hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt was a publicity stunt. Anybody know more about this?

I've heard this too, I'm fairly sure that it's true.

Saying he loves PF sounds like part 2 of the publicity stunt.

I love the Pistols but I loved PF longer as an adolescent (Barrett through Wish You Were Here period, I was tired of them by the time The Wall came out), so I gotta say PF.

― nickn (nickn), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:13 (twenty years ago)

I was of that age where 1977 was year zero by actuality, not by assumption. I didnot like Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Yes, ELP and so on. A lot of the kids in our school did. They dropped said like hotcakes. I didn't need to.

Oh, Pistols, btw. obv.

― mark grout (mark grout), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:18 (twenty years ago)

The only thing 1977 means to me on a personal non-retrospective basis is that it's the year I was born. The first time I heard anything even remotely connected with the Sex Pistols was Steve Jones' guitar playing on Iggy Pop's "Repo Man" when I was about eight years old. And living in the midwest US isn't all that conducive to caring about the Queen or Anarchy in the UK.

But there were countless fucked-up, confused, pissed-off post-grunge mid '90s teenage whiteboys at my high school thought The Wall was a masterwork. Including, at one point that only ended shortly before I turned twenty, me.

Face it, the only 1977 pop culture event that Changed Everything Forever for my generation was Star Wars.

― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Pistols, all the way. PF was good, but the Pistols were landmark.

― Orbit (Orbit), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:29 (twenty years ago)

(That said, the Pistols did have four great singles, which wasn't a hell of a lot less than Blue Oyster Cult had.)

― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Saturday, 6 November 2004 19:29 (twenty years ago)

Fuck all that. Meddle is where it's at.

Fuck...all...that!

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 6 November 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago)

Animals remains me favorite.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 6 November 2004 22:28 (twenty years ago)

Didn't one of the Pistols say they were more a fashion statement than a band? I know he was being sly, but I really think it's true.

― Hurting (Hurting), Saturday, 6 November 2004 22:32 (twenty years ago)

Didn't one of the Pistols say they were more a fashion statement than a band? I know he was being sly, but I really think it's true.

About themselves? Dear lord, no. McLaren might've, though.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 6 November 2004 22:33 (twenty years ago)

McLaren has said a lot of things, that's for sure.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 6 November 2004 22:38 (twenty years ago)

sundar, I think you need to hear the second part of Ummagumma. And I need to hear Meddle (because the brief clips I've heard sound fantastic). Better yet, I need--well, I don't remotely need to but I'd like to buy it (and Ummaguma).

― Rockist_Scientist (rockist_scientist), Saturday, 6 November 2004 22:52 (twenty years ago)

Rumour has it Johnny Rotten really is a Floyd fan. The "I Hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt was a publicity stunt. Anybody know more about this?
No, the rumour is false. He was into "Krautrock", not Prog.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Sunday, 7 November 2004 09:05 (twenty years ago)

Pink Floyd.

I remember reading, when Floyd's back catalogue was remastered for the CD market...

"The only bad thing about a pink floyd album is having to get up half way through and turn it over".

I concur.

― Coffee Cake, Sunday, 7 November 2004 11:25 (twenty years ago)

Animals is outstanding.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Sunday, 7 November 2004 13:18 (twenty years ago)

Pistols, all the way. PF was good, but the Pistols were landmark.

Yeah, and so was Chuck Berry, but I'd still rather listen to The Seeds or something. Maybe that's even a misleading comparison. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that landmark != good. I don't doubt the INFLUENCE of the Pistols was massive (it's pretty obvious), but if going strictly by which band I enjoy listening to more, it's gotta be Floyd.

― Ian John50n (orion), Sunday, 7 November 2004 15:15 (twenty years ago)

Rumour has it Johnny Rotten really is a Floyd fan. The "I Hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt was a publicity stunt. Anybody know more about this?

He wasn't a Floyd fan as far as I'm aware - he was into Hawkwind as a lad. Also, because he liked some Peter Hammill, people assume that he liked Van der Graaf too but the two don't necessarily follow.

― Soon Over Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 7 November 2004 15:39 (twenty years ago)

there would be no "krautrock" with Pink Floyd...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 7 November 2004 17:28 (twenty years ago)

I mean, there would be no "krautrock" withOUT Pink Floyd...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Sunday, 7 November 2004 17:29 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 12 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

As I mentioned elsewhere, both great bands that I don't listen to much anymore. Best non-Syd Floyd album = Meddle hands down.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:27 (twenty years ago)

There would be no "krautrock" withOUT Pink Floyd...
Well, but it's more a case of "Shit, this Floyd crap is soooo bad, even WE can do better!"

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:29 (twenty years ago)

"Sex Pistols with Syd = Metal Box"

I'm not sure I agree with that - but to be honest I'm far more interested in trying to imagine just how awful Pink Floyd with Sid might sound!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:33 (twenty years ago)

I don't really know enough about Krautrock to assert an opinion here, but is there really that much of a link between Krautrock and Pink Floyd? I certainly don't hear it if so.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:34 (twenty years ago)

I would much rather have my music be smug like "Money" as opposed to smug like "Anarchy In The UK".

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:38 (twenty years ago)

"Money in the UK"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:38 (twenty years ago)

In all of music, there are scant few bands better than the Sex Pistols and few worse than Pink Floyd.

― Burr (Burr), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:50 (twenty years ago)

That's wrong in almost every way, Burr.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:53 (twenty years ago)

Anarchy - Get away
dur de nur ne nur ne nur nur what I say

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:55 (twenty years ago)

Poor old Sid couldn't even play "Holidays In The Sun" all the way through - what the hell do you think he'd have made of a 5:4 time signature?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:58 (twenty years ago)

Seriously, almost every single band ever recorded, including all of the cookie-cutter pop-punk assholes and the over-emoting emo-grunge dipshits poisoning the airwaves today, is better than The Sex Pistols.

It's amazing how when you put Johnny Fucking Irritating Douchebag with people who can play their instruments, his inherent intolerability is completely neutralized and I love him (ie, Public Image Ltd is an infinitely better band and a group I would mark out as one of my high school favorites with the generic album as one of the 500 greatest albums ever recorded).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:59 (twenty years ago)

He'd do like the rest of us. Count to five and then again and again... xposto.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:00 (twenty years ago)

I understand WHY people like The Sex Pistols and I understand why they were important and necessary; I just never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER want to hear them again.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:01 (twenty years ago)

It's amazing how when you put Johnny Fucking Irritating Douchebag with people who can play their instruments, his etc

Umm, name one band he fronted that could not play their instruments?

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:01 (twenty years ago)

Someone still thinks the Pistols couldn't play??

― Burr (Burr), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:03 (twenty years ago)

It really doesn't fucking matter if they could play or not.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:04 (twenty years ago)

"He'd do like the rest of us. Count to five and then again and again...."

Do you think Sid could manage up to five, bless 'im?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:08 (twenty years ago)

"It really doesn't fucking matter if they could play or not."

By George, I think he's got it!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:09 (twenty years ago)

Possibly the biggest benefit The Sex Pistols had on the arean of musica appreciation is that it gave people who like things that sound like absolute shit the historical importance to act just as condescending as everyone else.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:12 (twenty years ago)

("arean" = "arena", of course)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:13 (twenty years ago)

(and of course my point was not "OMG they can't play their instruments", my point was, as it's always been, "OMG this sound like stale feces on a dead baby, why on Earth would I ever want to listen to this")

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:15 (twenty years ago)

?? But I hate things that sound like shit.

― Burr (Burr), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:15 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps it was a ghost baby.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:15 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha Ned! "OOOOOOOH It's a ghost baby! I get it now!"

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:18 (twenty years ago)

Dear "Floyd was only worth something when Syd was wif 'em" contingent:

Syd Barrett's songwriting is overrated, dippy twee Hobbit crap. Fuck a gnome.

Sincerely,
"Have A Cigar" owns you, chump

― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:35 (twenty years ago)

Fuck a gnome.

hahahahahahaha

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Hahahaha Nate I kiss you!

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:38 (twenty years ago)

"Have A Cigar" is pretty good. I'll take that over the rest of PF and all of SP.

― Dominique (dleone), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Always preferred "Welcome to the Machine" over "Have a Cigar," actually. But the entirety of Animals shits on them both.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:42 (twenty years ago)

Ah, "Wish You Were Here" the song is the best out of both those albums.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:58 (twenty years ago)

spesh the Wyclef version. ha.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 8 November 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)

T-Rex vs 'T-Rez'

― dave q, Monday, 8 November 2004 16:03 (twenty years ago)

spesh the Wyclef version. ha.

ouch

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 8 November 2004 16:12 (twenty years ago)

Painful!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 November 2004 16:13 (twenty years ago)

hah. I'm so pleased I said that...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 8 November 2004 16:15 (twenty years ago)

I really love "I Wish It Would Rain Down"... er, I mean "Wish You Were Here".

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I kick myself for not getting a copy of Wish You Were Here when the record shop had several for $3 apiece. Many of my frends own it (as well as other floyd albums, I guess) so I never thought too deeply about buying it. But goddamn I love that album, and Ned is totally OTM re: the title track.

― Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 8 November 2004 18:24 (twenty years ago)

Well, if we're talking percentage-wise, Pistols win easily, since 100% of their LPs were great, compared to, I dunno, maybe 30% of the Floyd's. Based SOLELY on that, I'll say Sex Pistols - even tho Pink Floyd released a greater volume of great music during the 10 years that they didn't suck. (My fave: probably Ummagumma)

As far as individuals go: Syd >>>>>>>>>>>> Sid. But you knew that already.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 8 November 2004 18:27 (twenty years ago)

I could never hear the title track to Wish You Were Here again and be a better American for it. "Universal" my ass...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 8 November 2004 20:41 (twenty years ago)

I don't really know enough about Krautrock to assert an opinion here, but is there really that much of a link between Krautrock and Pink Floyd?

Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (1969)
Can - Tago Mago (1971)
Neu! - Hallogallo (1972)

... I know it's a minor observation but there ya go. Plus compare most of early Tangerine Dream and bits of early Ash Ra Tempel to "Saucerful of Secrets" - I'm surprised Floyd didn't sue.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 11:03 (twenty years ago)

"Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (1969)
Can - Tago Mago (1971)
Neu! - Hallogallo (1972)"

Oooh! I like these games! Could the next one in the sequence possibly be:
Public Image Ltd - Metal Box (1979)

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 11:45 (twenty years ago)

All I meant was that the titles are all suspiciously similar! Edgar Froese says that "Ummagumma" was the most influential Pink Floyd album in Germany - specifically the 2nd record where they did all the experimental crap (which, indeed, is reminiscent of "Tago Mago"). Compare "Sisyphus" on "Ummagumma" with the title track of "Atem", for another example.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 11:49 (twenty years ago)

I was just using your list to make an only partly flippant observation re: how close the musical links actually are between John Lydon and ("I Hate....") Pink Floyd.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 12:00 (twenty years ago)

"The Wall" has way to few synths on it, and way too many agressive songs. PF were better earlier in the 70s.

Anyway, they do of course easily beat SP, who are one of the most overrated bands ever, based on the completely ridiculous concept that was punk rock.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago)

Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (1969)
Can - Tago Mago (1971)

I made this same connection for a review on the new Can remasters. It seems pretty feasible to me.

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago)

too many agressive songs

Normally, I'd say there can be no such thing as too many aggressive songs, but Geir's largely correct in that "aggressive" songs are not what the `Floyd generally excell at.

This statement, meanwhile....

Anyway, they do of course easily beat SP, who are one of the most overrated bands ever, based on the completely ridiculous concept that was punk rock.

...is pure, unhomogenized poppycock.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago)

http://www.popmatters.com/film/reviews/f/images/filth-and-fury.jpg ihttp://www.ciube.it/catalog/musica/images/Pink%20Floyd%20(S.Barrett).jpg

http://www.konzert-bilder.de/Verschiedenes/Pink%20Floyd-gross-40.jpg http://lacyroad.typepad.com/lacy_road/floyd.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:36 (twenty years ago)

Pink Floyd....classy or assy?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:37 (twenty years ago)

http://floyd.musichall.cz/enc/diskogr/pfs/pmats/promo.jpg http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:NTmGbWc2zbIJ:digilander.libero.it/punkabbbestia/Sex%2520Pistols/rotten3.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago)

http://www.pinkfloydsound.it/Images_storia/momentarylapsetour_dave.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~louster/sex3.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:45 (twenty years ago)

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