CAN vs KRAFTWERK vs NEU!

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By usual pop values Kraft is obvoius winner - they are " most influential band of 70s", they have global hits, they are "godfathers for whole genre".
BUT
Can was always more free and funny and wasn`t fixed into one dry formula like Kraft. Their music is much more experimental. They made better lives and had better frontmen. And Can was actually same or even more influential than Kraft -- I could number more bands which sounds like Can than really "kraftwerkish" groups.
NEU! had real genius formula: abstract soundscapes (made mostly with guitar) put on idiotic 4/4 drumming. Who need more to start a band?

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:17 (twenty years ago)

In terms of time spent listening:
1. Kraftwerk
2. Neu!
3. Can

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:46 (twenty years ago)

1. Apples
2. Oranges
3. Pears

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:48 (twenty years ago)

Can. By the way, oranges are better than apples or pears.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:52 (twenty years ago)

I agree with the Apples and Oranges sentiment but if I had a gun to my head...
1. Can
2. Kraftwerk
3. Neu!

― DOPESMOKER (smile), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:55 (twenty years ago)

idiotic drumming? are you high?

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:55 (twenty years ago)

can>>>neu>KW

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:56 (twenty years ago)

I really like listening to Neu! more than the others lately, but its all over the place really.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 15:59 (twenty years ago)

Neu! is kind of a 3 trick pony. Kraftwerk and Can are much more listenable. Can has stuff that can be loved by Rockists and Popists. Autobahn is a sack of shit, but KW is clearly a classique for Computer World, TEE, Man Machine etc. Also, inventing electronic music and hip hop.

Thus:

1) KW (ahead of Can for the influence)
2) Can
3) Neu!

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:03 (twenty years ago)

Of the three, I'm guilty of playing Kraftwerk more than the other two. I didn't seek out Can until I heard Thin White Rope's cover of "Yoo Doo Right" (the original on Monster Movie is, of course, a thousand times superior), and I only tracked down Neu! after they was cited as a favorite band of Julian Cope and Killing Joke (the `Joke's "Primitive" is basically a thin cover of Neu's "Negativland").

What about Faust?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:06 (twenty years ago)

Nectarines

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:07 (twenty years ago)

Faust doesn't hold a candle to them.

Kluster, Harmonia

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:07 (twenty years ago)

Holger Czukay solo is pretty great also. Great guitar technique, great basslines, amazing use of sampling, Jaki drumming.... oh yeaaaa

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:09 (twenty years ago)

KW inventing hip hop? WTF. Early rapDJs used some of their sounds but...
Speaking about apples & oranges
early 70s all three bands sounded quite similar, differences increased after 1974.

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:15 (twenty years ago)

The Estonian speaks the truth.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:17 (twenty years ago)

"BY PRESSING DOWN THE SPECIAL KEY IT PLAYS A LITLE MELODY" = RAP

"ICHI'NI UM SHI, (ONE TWO)" = HIP HOP

early 70s all three bands sounded quite similar, differences increased after 1974.

Can really never sounded particularly similar to the other two on their first few albums. Monster Movie = straight up ROCK. I guess KW 1+2+R&F are kind of Neu!-ish....

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:20 (twenty years ago)

If you're going to count "influence" as a factor, then Can "wins". Neither Neu or Kraftwerk would sound like they did without Can.

However, I really don't care about that. I just like Can the most, Kraftwerk the second most and Neu the third most.

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:29 (twenty years ago)

Were Neu in KW for KW1&2, or just on that german tv boot that's going around?

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:30 (twenty years ago)

I´m just listening an old vinyl LP of Ultravox "Vienna". A side opener "Astradyne" is just like cheesy pop Neu! and B side`s first track "Mr. X" is a stupid Kraftwerk spoof.
Can*s "Dago Mago" contains some "ealrlykraftwerkish" tracks, using even rythm-machine.

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:31 (twenty years ago)

Which track on Tago Mago uses a rhythm machine? My understanding was that Jaki had a tape deplay on some of the drums....

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:46 (twenty years ago)

As I recall, it's in the middle of "Peking O".

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:48 (twenty years ago)

Neu in KW for KW1

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:48 (twenty years ago)

This reminds me of another good old thread:

Amon Duul Vs. Can : The Battle for the Krautrock Krown

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:49 (twenty years ago)

Actually, only Dinger made it to the album, but they were both in the band shortly prior to that. There is also a boot out there of a KW/Can jam which I haven't heard.

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:49 (twenty years ago)

is it true there are some boots of Stockhausen jamming with various Krautrockers?

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Probably as true as the rumour that Stockhausen went into the studio with Miles Davis in the late 1970's.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:55 (twenty years ago)

a bunch of these guys were his pupils though right? Wasn't Czukay some kind of graduate student under Stockhausen?

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:57 (twenty years ago)

Schmidt, too. Somehow, I have a tough time imagining him "jamming," however...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 16:58 (twenty years ago)

According to Czukay, Stockhausen wasn't "rock'n'roll". Actually, there's a great interview with him at PSF (and resucitated in the archives recently) where they ask him what Stockhausen's influence on his music was, and he answers something like "I'd like to know too!"

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:00 (twenty years ago)

AMON DUUL II.

Seriously.. umm. Neu!, Can, Kraftwerk I guess. But it's tough. I love all three. And Faust are great also... So Far = fucking beautiful.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:01 (twenty years ago)

Neu! is so overrated.

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:02 (twenty years ago)

I can't decide (although if pressed I would probably say Neu! is the lesser of the three, but if you extend Neu! out to Harmonia and La Dusseldorf and other Rother/Dinger projects than it gets silly close again. Seriously three of my favorite bands ever though.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago)

Neu! may be overrated... but the first and third albums are totally unstoppable in terms of beauty & smart jams. the second drags for obvious reasons.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Arrrrgghhh

Kraftwerk for inventing the drum machine.

Can for being the most influential

Neu for being the overlooked classic...

However if I could do a Losing my edge time shift...I'd take being there at the first Can jams than at kling klang studios.

So maybe that answers the question.

However its all good.

― Danny boy, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:22 (twenty years ago)

the first can jams, from some bootleg i have, were not all that good!

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:23 (twenty years ago)

No way Can was more influential than Kraftwerk.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:24 (twenty years ago)

for those talking with their hearts, can is unquestionably the winner (especially considering the current reissues...ooohh...ahhh). but kraftwerk have their particular appeal. But does anyone really like Neu!2? - because i've never been able to really get into it. so what other Neu stuff should I find outside of their debut and 75?

― youngn (ndeyoung), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:30 (twenty years ago)

This is no other Neu! stuff (Neu! 4 is crap and the live album is superfluous.) Pick up the first two Harmonia and the first La Dusseldorf records though if you can find them.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 17:31 (twenty years ago)

I love Neu! 2; it was the first of theirs I owned (for years, all I'd seen were compilations that I kept passing over because I dreamed of actually seeing the complete LPs). I found the second side hilarious; I'm assuming that's the part that bothers people. I loved that they had dared to do something like that. I can understand that it's lost a lot of resonance as a gesture in maybe the last 15, 16 years or so.

I like the 4th album as well, understanding that it wasn't something they both wanted released. I do feel it could have been sequenced better, leaving some takes as extra-tracks. "Quick Wave Maschinelle", "Good Life", "La Bomba", and "Daenzing" are great! Their rehearsal tape I don't care much to listen to, though some day I've got to try singing along with some of it.

― Pangolino Again, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago)

KRAFTWERK were the first artists to introduce the use of the drum machines in pop music in 1971 when, at the loss of a drummer, they used a primitive drum machine, changing the basic sounds with tape echo units and filtering. The track 'Klingklang' from "Kraftwerk 2" shares with Sly And The Family Stone's "Family Affair" the distinction of featuring the 1st recorded drum machine in pop. The use of Kraftwerk of drum machines in their discography inflenced the future generations of musicians making it's use extensive and helping to give birth to a new fan of music genres like Synth Pop and Electro. Other key artists from the early drum machine history were George Clinton, GARY NUMAN, YELLOW MAGIC ORCHESTRA, and AFRIKA BAMBAATAA.

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:01 (twenty years ago)

Neu! is so overrated.
WTF? I'm not even going to address that one.
I think the first 4 tracks on "Neu! 2" are absolute perfection...obviously the different speed tracks leave something to be desired.
I was always surprised that David Toop never talked about this sequence in Ocean of Sound because this is the definition of oceanic music. If you listen to the interplay on the levels and effects between the guitar and drums on "Fuer Immer," it is almost as though the mixing board is synchronized to the tides.

― William Selman, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:04 (twenty years ago)

completely personal take: Faust > Cluster > Kraftwerk > Neu! > Can

but I'm pretty rabid about all five

― (Jon L), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:24 (twenty years ago)

Neu! > Can

color me disillusioned

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:27 (twenty years ago)

If you listen to the interplay on the levels and effects between the guitar and drums on "Fuer Immer," it is almost as though the mixing board is synchronized to the tides.

That's a Great way of putting it!

I've never read "Ocean of Sound" (should I? yeah I proably should) so I don't know whether David Toop addresses this, but I think Can also have a very oceanic approach to their music, with Future Days probably being the best example.

― willem (willem), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I think Faust deserve WAY more credit, myself.
I mean, Tapes rivals the best of Can in the "studio as an instrument" dept. They had the endless groove, too, but lack some of the funk, for sure. They make up for it in vivid imagination and successful experimentation.

― Trip Maker (Sean Witzman), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago)

Faust & Can had a sense of humor, which = classic.

But still.. AMON DUUL II.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Can is more "band as instrument"

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:43 (twenty years ago)

That is very true.

― Trip Maker (Sean Witzman), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago)

did 'hero' by neu! have an influence on uk punk? i've often thought lydon must have been listening, esp. the delivery & lyrics ("fuck your business, fuck the press")

― zappi (joni), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago)

That has been written several places, I think. Lydon listening to Neu!
Right? I don't know...

― Trip Maker (Sean Witzman), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Lydon listened to krautrock & reggae like everyone else with a lick of sense since.

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:50 (twenty years ago)

I think Lyndon listened to Kraut during the PiL era.

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Call me a rockist: Can wins, 'cause of their guitars and amazing rhythms and all that. Kraftwerk & Neu are nice in their own way, and I like 'em, but a little too monochromatic and redundant for my usual purposes. The question of which band was most influential (Kraftwerk, probably) is a non-factor, at least in terms of appeal.

And to bring Faust/Amon Düül/Ash Ra Tempel etc. into the equation is to open a whole new Can of würms. (Pun definitely intended.)

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 19:58 (twenty years ago)

FAUST > NEU > CAN > KRAFTWERK

― jushinthunderliger (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:01 (twenty years ago)

color me disillusioned

ha! I'm in an admittedly pissy mood. ranking the one good Neu! record above nearly every single thing Can did from 68-74 is probably just me being ILM-reactionary. But in the last three years, I still use the first Neu! for long distance driving, and almost never listen to Can.

I do want to check out the Tago Mago & Babaluma remasters and that'll get me listening again. There's no arguing that I love the band.

ok for fun let me rephrase

Faust = Cluster = Czukay solo > Kraftwerk > Neu! > Can

― (Jon L), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago)

Well, I have to admit to gradually moving away from Neu! altogether. I think I realized that I like stuff inspired by Neu! better than Neu!. Like, to me, the long track on Super Roots 7 is what Neu should have been.

And all day I've had this one stretch of "Mother Sky" in my head that sounds like better motorik than Neu! did. Maybe I'm a "rockist".

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:20 (twenty years ago)

not if you're rating motorik you're not

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago)

For me: Can by a clear shot victory, though I'm driven toward rock.

Of the remaining two, I'd take Kraftwerk (probably because of Men Machines), though have not heard much Neu! (the one album I did hear was underwhelming) to judge fairly.

― Joe (Joe), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago)

ILM is valuable to me entirely to the degree that it dismisses all my hopeless dreams for total consensus

I dj'ed that Super Roots 7 track last night right into 'Nous tombons dans elle' btw, all ten people in the cavernous art gallery loved it

― (Jon L), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago)

yay!

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:05 (twenty years ago)

When push comes to shove, Kraftwerk is the only one out of those three whose music is listenable.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:28 (twenty years ago)

even black folks like it

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:30 (twenty years ago)

Tago Mago is one of the greatest albums ever. The other two bands never approach "Halleluhweh." Not that anyone else does though.

― steve hise, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:45 (twenty years ago)

bands tend to try and want to rip it off, though.

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:51 (twenty years ago)

Faust doesn't hold a candle to them.
Kluster, Harmonia
-- Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (jonathan.william...), November 10th, 2004.

First, Autobahn is Kraftwerk's best. It gets SO dark at times.

Second, Faust completely eat all of them.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Can >> Kraftwerk > Neu

Can at their best were almost unbeatable. They were all grebt but all released some weaker stuff. Kraftwerk gets the edge over Neu for their influence.

― wetmink (wetmink), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:32 (twenty years ago)

not if you're rating motorik you're not

wtf? kraut/motorik stuff is totally rockist love.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:42 (twenty years ago)

Boredoms > Can > OOIOO

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:51 (twenty years ago)

drums > guitars /= rockist

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:52 (twenty years ago)

endless groove by white german dudes with instruments (as opposed to computers) = rockist

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:53 (twenty years ago)

motorik is not about about drums.....

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:54 (twenty years ago)

haha "white german dudes"... this is as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of hispanic, asian and african germans, obv.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:55 (twenty years ago)

endless groove by white german dudes and token minority vocalists

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:56 (twenty years ago)

UR right:
Expanding rockism beyond its "Natural" borders = rockism

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago)

semantics = rockism, also.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago)

sexyDancer's axiom

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago)

Can, then Kraftwerk, then Neu!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:42 (twenty years ago)

conny plank über alles.

― stirmonster, Thursday, 11 November 2004 02:36 (twenty years ago)

I really liked Conny Plank, too. I remember reading about how he would ask musicians he was producing to describe their songs in terms of visual scenes to help think about how to approach the sounds.

― Pangolino (ricki spaghetti), Thursday, 11 November 2004 02:46 (twenty years ago)

motorik is not about about drums.....

Yes, it's OBVIOUSLY the clarinet, asshole.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 11 November 2004 05:26 (twenty years ago)

is it true there are some boots of Stockhausen jamming with various Krautrockers?

Probably as true as the rumour that Stockhausen went into the studio with Miles Davis in the late 1970's.

Never heard of any of these rumours and both strike me as being utter bollocks.

Holger Czukay and Irmin Schmidt were "students" of Stockhausen - meaning, I imagine, they attended his Darmstadt courses - tho the exact extent of their involvement is unclear. Czukay seems to have had more contact with Stockhausen and certainly has higher regard for him.

Miles Davis was introduced to Stockhausen's music by Paul Buckmaster and was influenced by Stockhausen's Moment Form theories around the time of "On the Corner" (I think). But then Miles Davis is one of those artist everyone is "rumoured" to have recorded with - Hendrix, Beefheart, Girls Aloud, you name it.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 11 November 2004 12:29 (twenty years ago)

i was listening to one of the sped up Neu!2 tracks really loud on distorting speakers in the car and it began to resemble "jesus built my hotrod." it was a cool moment. or rather, it was cool for a moment.

― andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:37 (twenty years ago)

Some clever person needs to do a mash-up of a Miles Davis trumpet solo on top of "Halleluwah" or "Mother Sky".

― Dominique (dleone), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:39 (twenty years ago)

anyone catch the Neu!2 sample in the climax of kill bill vol 1?

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:53 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, him recording with Stockhausen is almost certainly bullshit. I read somewhere--possibly that electric Miles book--that Jack Chambers mistook some piece of information he had for implying they'd recorded together, and then went on to theorize in his own book, Milestones that Joe Zawinul had been the musical director of the sessions. This despite the fact that Stockhausen has long been on the record as detesting jazz.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:01 (twenty years ago)

Actually Stockhausen does not detest jazz at all. He used to play it to earn some bucks after the war, plus even claimed to be influenced by John Lewis' piano playing(!). Not only that, but I've a Stockhausen record (can't remember which), where in the sleevenotes, one of his assistants/ musicians describes Stockhausen improvising jazz on piano between takes in a recording session. He liked a lot of the free jazz he heard at the Donaueschingen Festival in the early 70s (could it have been Sun Ra?) but thought a lot of the players played too loudly and too often and didn't listen to their fellow musicians.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 12 November 2004 10:05 (twenty years ago)

he didn't like Sun Ra's show tune bits, but he loved the freakouts, I remember him complimenting them for being 'completely asymmetrical'

― (Jon L), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPuBCfvMrBA

neu! hero live 1974

yep

― Milton Parker, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 06:12 (eighteen years ago)

Kraftwerk - Autobahn with announcer trying to explain their music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c81X6BiI0Y

― Bimble, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 06:28 (eighteen years ago)

Can >KW > Neu ... but God knows I love 'em all

― Davey D, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 06:32 (eighteen years ago)

Yes I agree, Can is better but I never would have thought there was so much fun Kraftwerk stuff to watch on You Tube. It's ridiculous.

― Bimble, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 06:39 (eighteen years ago)

Michael Rother looks traumatized. Or maybe just tuned out. Regardless, I want NEU! playing my party with Klaus Dinger in his silver space boots.

― Bill in Chicago, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

that's pretty funny footage, might as well be la dusseldorf w/ rother

cool how tight kraftwerk's drumming is. they never should have abandoned the suits and neon signs.

― am0n, Wednesday, 29 August 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

Those electronic drums are INCREDIBLE.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Thursday, 30 August 2007 02:44 (eighteen years ago)

Actually, only Dinger made it to the album, but they were both in the band shortly prior to that. There is also a boot out there of a KW/Can jam which I haven't heard.
-- Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, November 10, 2004 4:49 PM (2 years ago)

Has anyone heard the Kraftwerk/Can bootleg? Until I read this thread, I didn't know that jam ever happened.

― Z S, Thursday, 30 August 2007 03:35 (eighteen years ago)

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