Britain, America and indie music

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I have a friend who lives in London and she claims there's this new indie movement in Britain. That this is one of the most significant times in the history of rock music and of popular art in general. And right now seems to be the crucial time where more and more bands(in Britain) are picking up on it, and the number of people involved are growing. Bands bonding with fans, destroying the image of the rockstar as God, bands doing guerilla gigs(whatever that is) blah blah. She's constantly raving about bands like The Others, Paddingtons, Special Needs, The Cribs etc. It's supposed have started with the breakthrough of The Libertines. I've heard all these bands and think they're shite(except the Libs!). Infact I think British rock and indie pop music has been shit in the last years. Not many NEW great acts have emerged. The only notable force I can think of is the Fence Collective in Scotland. Compared to Britain the American rock and indie pop scene is great. The diversity of indie bands like Black Dice, Animal Collective, Postal Service, Tv on the Radio, Lighting Bolt, Deerhof, Sufjan Stevens, The Rapture, The Liars etc is nowhere to be found in the UK.

What do you Londoners and Brits think about this? Is my friend on to something? I'm telling her she should stop reading the NME(what happened to Shroomadelica?)

― Crapstone (Crapstone), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, she is talking shit

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, she should stop reading the NME. She must be one of the very last people to still read it!

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

She's constantly raving about bands like The Others, Paddingtons, Special Needs, The Cribs etc.

Is she an Alan McGhee scenester groupie ?

Useless small London centric scene with no substance.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh go on, the NME is the best comic book in years. The inmates have taken over the asylum and it's better for it.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, UK indie scene is rubbish, but most of the US bands you mentioned are rubbish too - Animal Collective are OK, and Lightning Bolt are good but arguably not indie (certainly not in the British sense, probably not in the US sense, unless it's a very open definition). You and your friend should stop arguing and accept that most music is rubbish, and always has been.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

kevin, "indie" in america is not a catch-all term for crappy nme-championed guitar bands.

― lauren (laurenp), Monday, 22 November 2004 12:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't think the Rapture, TV on the Radio and Black Dice were considered 'indie' in America either. I thought 'indie' meant 'indie pop' over there. It's funny that I am still so confused.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

kevin, "indie" in america is not a catch-all term for crappy nme-championed guitar bands.

I know, that's why I seperated the definitions. But is noise indie? I don't think so. Surely indie in the US means something other than 'everything that doesn't fit one of the other main genres'?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

the words 'exciting', 'british' and 'bands' don't mix well at the best of times let alone adding 'indie' to the equation. US indie has evolved more; it is more eclectic than UK indie which has barely made any new developments whatsoever since dance culture knocked it for six. Indie in the UK, as in the above context is overly twee, retro AND regressive and i think the music appeals to people who value the clique aspect. UK indie as a subculture as been far more identifiable by image for some time now and the faddish music seems secondary.

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I always think of the US indiepop scene as much more insular than anything the UK could manage.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

well.. it can and does mean indie pop, but moreso that that i think it still tends to mean being strongly connected to an underground scene regardless of musical genre.

multiple xposts!

― lauren (laurenp), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, I should've added the word rock in the title so we would be without this discussion what indie is. Rock and indie. There you go.

So the following for these bands(the British ones) are not as great as my friend and the NME tries to make it seem? But what do you think of the content? What kind of people listen to these bands? I'm getting the impression it's mostly teenagers.

― Crapstone (Crapstone), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Some people live in Camden.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

re: noise - i would consider it as a genre to be indie in the strictest sense of the word, i guess. it's how you personally define terms, maybe.. to me indie and indie pop are two totally different things. i would consider the former to mean independent releases, a sense of common underground culture, etc, whereas the latter is more of a style/genre signifier.

― lauren (laurenp), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

PS. I live in Scotland but have no idea who or what the Fence Collective is. Should I be concerned?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

[XPOST]Indie is to independent as Pop is to popular. Both are umbrella terms with and their relation to genre is open to interpretation. Or moreover i think their relationship to genre is in constant flux. Pop is transient, what appeals culturally at any one time shifts. The same is true of indie only i think US music has been more open to this dynamic whereas UK music is stagnate. A paralysis i blame on britpop fallout and issues of identity.

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably - would you like me to send you their new sampler? (x-post)

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just looked it up on Google. I don't think it's my sort of thing. Thanks, though.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

The diversity of indie bands like Black Dice, Animal Collective, Postal Service, Tv on the Radio, Lighting Bolt, Deerhof, Sufjan Stevens, The Rapture, The Liars etc is nowhere to be found in the UK.

This doesn't mean anything. There are a ton of fun and inventive and ripping bands in the UK that are worth hearing, and who span as much musical terrain as those lot. Kill Yourself and Soeza and McLusky and Mountain Men Anonymous and Humanfly and Trencher and David Wrench and Scatter are some to be going on with. If you haven't heard of most of them, well no-one had heard of Deerhoof or Black Dice or Sufjan Stevens before they'd had a few records out either.

― DJ Mencap0))), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

We know that 'indie' and 'pop' long ago outgrew the definitions of independent and popular, to describe aesthetic values. Anyway, the stagnation you percieve is only because the word indie here is so specific - you're looking at the same type of bands and pointing out that they aren't changing. There is noise and electronica and folk and punk-rock in the UK. We don't describe it as indie in the UK, so you're criticising the UK for a musical stagnation when in fact it is just a more rigid term applied to a small group of bands amidst a very varied and fluid music scene.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"PS. I live in Scotland but have no idea who or what the Fence Collective is. Should I be concerned?"

U.N.P.O.C, James Yorkston, King Creosote Lone Pigeon. The founders of the record company are from Fife. Folk pop/rock basicly.

― Crapstone (Crapstone), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Kevin - that is true but other musical forms in the UK don't operate from with the indie remit - they do not get the coverage that other indie bands do - the more interesting fields of music are outside of the indie core which is the stagnate scenester NME. And the point is that there is a ''very varied and fluid music scene'' but it is not received in the way it should be by the mainstream music press (or at least the publishers of it).

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the image of the rockstar as God - why do they want to destroy it? :(

― pete b. (pete b.), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The NME or whatever is only "the indie core" if you believe it is. Smart people tend not to. I know what you're saying, but outside of slightly bizarre vacuums like this place, it's not like, say, Black Dice are actually that big a band

― DJ Mencap0))), Monday, 22 November 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

well i don't think it IS the indie core per se but for a lot of people who think of themselves as indie it is. I doubt many of us here would say 'indie' if asked what music we liked. Anyway this is going in circles and there is no answer.

― myke boomnoise (myke boomnoise), Monday, 22 November 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

the words 'exciting', 'british' and 'bands' don't mix well at the best of times let alone adding 'indie' to the equation.

And the point is that there is a ''very varied and fluid music scene'' but it is not received in the way it should be by the mainstream music press (or at least the publishers of it).

well...is there an exciting scene or isn't there? You seem to be needlessly dismissive of British bands to begin with, and then to accept that actually there is a fluid music scene.

I am puzzled by this idea of an 'indie remit' and that the bands that DO make it are twee. Most of the nominally indie bands that have made it this year certainly aren't twee (Belle and Sebastian included, if you listen to the bulk of their recent output. They had to stop being 'twee' to start having hits - although signing to a reasonably sized record label probably helped rather a lot too).

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 22 November 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

What are 'guerilla gigs"? I picked up the last couple NME's due to pics of *a certain person* being in them, and the buzz was all guerilla gigs. . . .

Bands are playing impromptu sets on the underground or somesuch? Meh--proper gigs for me. . . .

― Mary (Mary), Monday, 22 November 2004 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

guerilla gigs: explained
http://www.eyebeam.org/reblog/archives/2004/07/guerilla_gigs_1.html

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 22 November 2004 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I was hoping they involved progressive house.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 22 November 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

with any luck, you too can have a talentless group of crackheads carrying on in your flat until the police show up.

― lauren (laurenp), Monday, 22 November 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

That was Guerilla records
http://www.discogs.com/label/Guerilla

i woz a prog-houser a decade ago

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 22 November 2004 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

better than Gorillaz gigz

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Monday, 22 November 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i dunno.. have you heard the others and the paddingtons?

― lauren (laurenp), Monday, 22 November 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

i think what i meant to say was i would rather go to a Gorillaz gig than a guerilla gig by any of these bands

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Monday, 22 November 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

i rather go to a Guerilla Records Prog-House revival night.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Monday, 22 November 2004 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread reminded me of the A-band record reisuued on QBICO earlier this year. Its a 'roots of a type of underground' record and leads to vibracathedral orchestra, sunroof...bands that are considered to be 'underground', that happen to play gigs in 'proper' places (most of the time). I'm guessing that's what a 'proper' gig is.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 22 November 2004 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

The ultimate guerilla gig must've been by U2. The one on the roof or whatever. My mom loves that video.

― Crapstone (Crapstone), Monday, 22 November 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i like the cribs but the paddingtons are crap and i don't much like special needs either. the libertines are just a waste of everyone's time.

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Monday, 22 November 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's forget the bollocks term and tell me more about:

"Kill Yourself and Soeza and and Mountain Men Anonymous and Humanfly and Trencher and David Wrench and Scatter."

(Omitted McLusky as we know about them here).

― Piers (piers), Monday, 22 November 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't like Trencher either

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Monday, 22 November 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

In order: heavy mathy power trio from Leeds in Shellac/Dazzling Killmen stylee; jazzy post-punk Bristol band of many members who have been going for years; instrumental three-piece from Cardiff with the best drummer you are likely to see in the medium of delicate post-rock/heavy MBV noise excursions; Jesus Lizard-meets-Botch noisecore excellence, again from Leeds; fucked up prolific Casio hardcore band in the vein of a less twiddly Locust; super funny and tuneful electro-pop (PSB corssed with Gonazales) from North Wales producer; free improv folk heads from Edinburgh who have half a page in the brand new Plan B, which is cool.

― DJ Mencap0))), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:39 (twenty-one years ago)

If your friend is having fun and enjoying herself and the music she is listening to - what is the big worry? *shrugs shoulders* The whole Libertines scene is getting big ... its just teen-trash-rock instead of teen-trash-pop. If you don't get it it probably means that you are too old ... its mainly a teen thing at the moment. And hey, kids are having fun and forming bands. Why not? Why get in a big uproar. And suggest thousands of bands - when in reality there are about a million different types of music to be listening to. This morning - I listened to Exorcist 2 soundtrack, Carole King, Shellac, The Others and Innocence Mission. Why the big deathrush? Everyone likes their own thing.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

And its safe to say if you are all het up about the Fence Collective maybe this teenage-trash-rok isn't really going to be your thing....

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:48 (twenty-one years ago)

If you don't get it it probably means that you are too old ... its mainly a teen thing at the moment.

pish tosh. this is a really stupid thing to say.

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey Master Mencap, looking at that list of yours, I think you'd probably like Charlottefield too - another band with a bad case of the Scratch Acids... Dunno if you know them already, but they seem to be getting better and better over the last year.

― Jah Rasta Four-eyes (NickB), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Not really Jim - the kids going to those shows are really, really young ...

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

that might be true but 'not getting' the music i don't see as a function of age at all.

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:02 (twenty-one years ago)

also it's not unheard of to like both psych folk whimsy *and* teenage r'n'r

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:03 (twenty-one years ago)

if you don't see the function of age when discussing what is teenage-trash-rok ... well, then ... i can't really explain it too you. you need to open your mind to that first. i've just seent this stuff explode. its interesting. i can break-it-down if you want. but part of me thinks - oh why should i? so i am hmming and hawwing about doing it.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:04 (twenty-one years ago)

ok.

base observations:

1. teenage kids want to feel like they are part of something;
2. all those bands have come up through internet message boards;
3. the fans have supported the bands and this community has grown;
4. their is nothing seperating the fans and the bands. there is no division. its like some hydra-headed monster that just keeps getting bigger.
5. the shows are fairly celebratory and people love the bands for it.

its a weird community just like the noise dudes, or whatever, but involving three-chord punk.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Join the fuckin Scouts

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually nah fair play to them but really age isn't the main factor here

― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:12 (twenty-one years ago)

and nme has been for and against it but it hasn't really stopped it from growing. kids are using the internet rather than relying on magazines to tell them what to listen to. and hey, if it gets kids into music and listening to music rather than video games, etc - i can't complain.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

kids are using the internet rather than relying on magazines to tell them what to listen to.

kids, twentysomethings, ILM users... you're a bit obsessed with the age side of this. the base observations above are valid but you could easily substitute a common location or a shared taste for the age factor.

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, but sometimes, you've just got to admit to yourself that you maybe too old for something.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

"free improv folk heads from Edinburgh who have half a page in the brand new Plan B, which is cool."

Well, that is cool, but if it's Scatter your're talking about they're from Glasgow. Sorry to sound like a pedant, but that's my Weegie bias kicking in.
Scatter are bloody fantastic though. Well worth checking out live for their folky drones, Mingus in Tijuana brass, and spoken word craziness.
Although the line-up is ever changing (Nick McCarthy from Franz Ferdinand was once their bassist) a couple of Scatter peeps are in the wonderful Lucky Luke, a psychedelic folk-rock 7-8 piece who sound a bit like Fairport Convention jamming with John Cale and Lou Reed. Their album is out in January on Geoff Barrow from Portishead's label, Invada.
Connections between Glasgow and the Wire sponsored New Weird America scene are well established. David Keenan and Heather Leigh Murray have been putting on gigs by Jack Rose, Fursaxa and Glenn Jones in hippy tea rooms.
The great thing is that most music fans in Glasgow are happy to go check folky stuff out then go listen to cheeky electro scamps like Errors or Multiplies. John Peel would be proud.

― stew, Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, but sometimes, you've just got to admit to yourself that you maybe too old for something.

why? do you consider yourself too old for it?

― the surface noise (slight return) (electricsound), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, loads of people that i know as well consider themselves 'too old' for it. but if i was say sixteen - i would have fucking loved it.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

doesn't stop me enjoying the music. but the whole atmosphere and substance is really for the fucked-up kids of the world.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i think as well, i carry too much baggage sometimes with music. like 'credibility' or 'reference points' ... its cool to listen to music without those two factors.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Apols Stew and ta for the correction - if all you've got to go on is an (excellent) live set it's pretty difficult to find info about them, their name is practically googleproof.

As for all the stuff that Doomie is talking about, to be honest I find the context and the media portrayal of it infinitely more interesting than the actual music these people are making. But yeah, the idea of all these bands developing the same sort of community spaces as early US hardcore scenes (that's my point of comparison anyway), while simultaneously gunning for NME features etc, is... noteworthy

― DJ Mencap0))), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

1) Doomie, when did we get married? What are you doing with my surname? Did you drug me so I don't remember?

2) Who brought up the improv thing? Is that a reference to the whole "breaking down the barrier between the audience and the band" thing? Isn't that what Free Jazz has been supposed to be doing for decades now? Oh, if only the Libs could be as interesting musically as free jazz, it would be an improvement. (And knowing my stance on improv, that is really saying something.)

Anyway, as to this guerilla gigs, thing, jeebus, what idiot has decided that this is something new? What, they can just stick a "trendy edgy" label on it and somehow relate it to Flashmobs or some other Edgy (read: "so last year now, actually") movement weh-hoo, instant scene, hurrah.

3) The NME is hillarious. I stand by this. It's a big giant cartoon book and I read it every week in the shop. Stop caring about the music, and it's great. There was a copy of The Sun on the train this morning and I just picked it up thinking "ha ha, I wonder what Pete Doherty's up to this week, wouldn't that be funny if he were in it?" and the first article I read is about him selling his passport. Hilarity! This is what I read papers for.

4) Live music is dying in London like it's dying everywhere else. Well, no, of course it's not *really* dying, it's just mutating into a form where it's harder and harder for everyone to get attention that people are distracting to videogames and the interweb and all that, and who wants to go and stand in a smelly venue and see crap bands when you could be doing something PARTICIPATORY and FUN!! I approve of the idea of bands doing wild things to attract attention but it's just a shame that their music isn't more interesting. But then again, if their music were interesting, they wouldn't need to do wild and wacky things to get attention, now, would they?

I approve of the idea of such things, I'm just too old and jaded to find them anything more than an interesting social phenomena.

5) I really, REALLY wish my friends would stop saying "Hey, I bought that album you were raving about the other day..." because this is really beginning to bug me, i.e. I WAS NOT RAVING, I WAS RANTING, AND I FREAKING HATE THEM, PLEASE DON'T BUY THEIR RECORDS, AND ESPECIALLY DON'T SAY THAT YOU BOUGHT THEIR RECORDS BECAUSE OF ME.

6) The Cribs are lovely.

Thank you.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, Kate OTM, perhaps except for the bit abt the cribs. I mean, she might be right about the cribs, but I dunno, I haven't heard them.

The really interesting thing about britain, america and independent music is this. How hard is it for an american independent/small label band to get gigs in britain? By comparison, how hard is it for a british independent/small label band to get gigs in the usa? there is actually a scandalous, newsworthy story there, for the journo willing to do a bit of research.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

By "how hard to get gigs", btw, I mean what official hoops will they have to jump through. What obstacles will be placed in their way by officialdom?

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

kate, if i drugged you - would end up in a mental hospital whilst i collected your pittance of money in your bank account. naw, it was supposed to be 'jimmy the saint' but i wrote doomie the saint as a joke in the real name box. in other words, i got confused.

i think hell, its three-chord punk-rock. either you like that sort of teenangel death rok or you don't. i like occassional blasts, meself.

nme came onboard the entire thing after it had already happened. so media potrayal - or media potraying the truth?

it took three years for punk rock to get interesting - the majority of the people in these bands are really young. i think it could perserve into something neat-o.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

jon savage gave my friend a cdr of what he was really listening to in '77. it was death-folk and prog rock. i sort of know how he felt ... now.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Death folk? Which is what exactly?

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

death-folk - shirley collins, third ear band macbeth soundtrack adn the like.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

The antithesis of the New Christy Minstrels.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

death-folk - shirley collins, third ear band macbeth soundtrack adn the like.

Oh, you mean an imaginary genre that was made up two days ago?

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess "Love, Death and the Lady" pretty much epitomises what could be called "death folk"?

(x-post haha)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i love genre-names. they are alot of fun!!! don't begrudge me the little and sometimes only bit of fun in music journalism.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Why? Most folk albums are about death, despair and destruction. (xpost)

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

not all.

vashti sounds like my kindergarten teacher. 'oi you crack a smile and lighten up'

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't say all did I? Vashti's folk for hipsters, hardly the real thing.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought 'Sounds of the Sunforest' was...

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

... that was terribly "folkist" of me, wasn't it? Ha ha.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I laffed!

I wonder what are you feelings on the 'new folk america', Dadaismus? Honest answer - I wonder what the folk-purists think of The ESpers, Devendra Banhart, Jack Rose et al.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

**it took three years for punk rock to get interesting**

No it didn't.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Depends on your definition of interesting. I prefer 'Metal Box' over 'Never Mind the Bollocks'.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Haven't heard much New Folk America - to be honest, reading David Keenan and the like on it is enough to put anyone off anything. I don't really care that much, it's exactly like Krautrock, it's a fad that hipsters and indie types go thru and once they're bored with it the people that really like it will be left to carry on listening as they did before.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

It took about 4 seconds for punk rock to get interesting

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder what the folk-purists think of The ESpers, Devendra Banhart, Jack Rose et al.

My pal who writes for Froots was pretty underwhelmed with the Jack Rose and Glenn Jones CDs he was sent. I think he was frustrated by their ostensible inability to break out of the Takoma box. I don't mind though, cos he passed them on to me...

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I just don't get punk rock. I like Crime and Wipers. But never owned a punk rock record until 2001.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

jon savage gave my friend a cdr of what he was really listening to in '77. it was death-folk and prog rock..

I imagine that's not what he was really listening to, it was that he was also listening too in '77. But no-one was interested in that stuff in 1977, so why would he write about it?

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i suppose so. but a weird bizarro universe it would have been if those genres co-habited with punk rock during '77.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

They obviously did in some people's heads. Especially if they were slightly older and had grown up in the late 60s and early 70s like Jon Savage

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I suppose so - but I was thinking about a 'mass-general consensus' rather than a select few. Or more than a select few? I wonder what people from the 60s and early 70s did make of punk rock?

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Dependent on their age, I imagine. Jon Savage wasn't exactly old in 1977 (probably, what 23 or 24?) But I imagine his musical development happened in the heyday of prog and glam, like a lot of punk rockers, of course.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

You could say, though, it something that is now imitation - that 'punk rock' and 'prog and folk' - do coincide side-by-side in 2004.

― doomie the saint (jimmy the sainted kid of death), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone seems to hate David Keenan. Don't mind him too much, although I do find his writing on noise a bit over-heated and masturbatory. He can be quite funny though, especially when he's getting exited about the Albert Ayler boxset in his Sunday Herald jazz column.
Having met him and seen him leaping about with glee to Borbetomagus while everyone else cowered in their seats, fingers in ears, I can't knock his enthusiasm and commitment.
Can't say I like all of the stuff he champions. Jack Rose is great, but his group Pelt are droney and dull. Current 93 are hammy goths.
He did his top 100 albums for the Sunday Herald a couple of years back and it was as these things should be - highly subjective, arbitary and perverse.
That said, I don't read the Wire religiously, so I've maybe missed the stuff that gets people's hackles up.

― stew, Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

his group Pelt are droney and dull.

Y'all wouldn't say that if you saw them live. Droney is the point, and it was anything but dull.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

his group Pelt are droney and dull.

Don't tell me's got a new group? When will he ever learn!??!?!? His Derek Bailey interview was very good.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Pelt are Jack Rose's band. Keenan's new band is Taurpis Tula.

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha ha. He has got a new band! Full marks for persistence if nothing else.

― Den Dadaismus in seinem Lauf hält weder Ochs noch Esel auf... (Dada), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I have seen Pelt live! And I do realise that drone is what they're all about. I should qualify my rather provocative previous statement though. The sound they made was quite incredible. The singing bowls are quite eerie and unsettling, the esraj and the incredible sustained harmonics Rose does on his lap steel are something else...but, but, but...over an hour it got a wee bit tedious. Instead I was left feeling melancholy and pensive. Which isn't a bad thing per se, but transcendence wasn't reached. I'm perfectly willing to accept that it might not have been one of their best sets and compared to some other drone stuff I've heard it's positively baroque, but I just prefer a bit more dynamism.

― stew, Tuesday, 23 November 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

'Who brought up the improv thing? Is that a reference to the whole "breaking down the barrier between the audience and the band" thing?'

some bands improvise and they happen to play in rock venues kate.

Sunburned hand of man are a 'nu folk america' group that you might like Dada - a lot of these bands do jam with electronics and make drones - all evry much in a Krautrocky spirit. Try 'rare wood'.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Listening to drones in a rock venue can be quite diff to get into (and of course a drone may depend on length to do its work, or to 'transcend', so it rarely does much for me), but I like it that there are ppl taking this eastern form and playing it.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread is funny

― Does John Coltrane Dream of a Merry-go-round? (ex machina), Tuesday, 23 November 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is hillarious, actually, but in a different way from reading the Sun on the train.

Three years ago... sigh.

― The Grain of Sand in Lambeth That Satan Cannot Find (kate), Wednesday, 24 November 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

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