Charles Ives

...will take you to an Ives thread from August.

The New Yorker sez he's generally regarded as America's greatest classical composer. Is that really generally accepted? I always thought Aaron Copland would be the standard answer.

Yeah I think the New Yorker is talking out of its arse a bit there.

granted it's probably only the New Yorker intern who does the listings

hmm, Ives is certainly one of the first people to come up in a google search for "america's greatest composer" - along with the predictable Copland, Gershwin, Ellington, etc. There's even a site attributing that claim to Leonard Bernstein.

I think "generally" is not accurate, but "widely" would be. Esp. once you start asking composers/performers/music writers.

My own favorite US composer might actually be George Crumb, but I just started listening to Feldman within the last year and he could turn into a contender for me.

that is definitely not generally accepted.

my 2 cents: in no particular order, america's top composers:

John Cage
Morton Feldman
Robert motherfucking Ashley
Terry Riley
Harry Partch
John Zorn
Annea Lockwood
David Behrman
Zeena Parkins
George Lewis
Don Cherry
Charles Ives
Duke Ellington
Cole Porter
George Gershwin

i really really despise the populist classical stuff like Copland. i guess, tho, that my biases are pretty clear.

Copland did his share of modernist/serialist stuff though.

Yeah, dismissing Copland as pop-classicist is a bit unfair. One of my favorite things is his Symphony for Organ and Orchestra, which has some very Stravinsky-like dissonances and jarring rhythms.

also Gershwin is equally if not more populist

And strictly as composer Ellington >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gershwin

definitely

a) Copland's serialist stuff is pretty bland when compared with other serialist stuff of the era, though the Symphony for Organ and Orchestra is rather good.
b) Gershwin is more populist, yes, but I think placing him and Copland in the same 'populist' boat is sort of silly-- Gershwin was writing gorgeous, lush and complicated songs, whereas Copland was going for more orchestral works. Gershwin's songs are pretty unbeatable (tho I like Cole Porter better), whereas Copland's orchestral works are much too poppy and 'meh' when considered among other works of the era.

i would agree:
Ellington>>>>>>>Cole Porter>>>>>Gershwin

but again my biases are clear.

I think he's America's greatest composer

would love to see the New Yorker quote

Interesting how Reich and Glass have not been mentioned so far. Or maybe Carter.

"My own favorite US composer might actually be George Crumb"

Really? He has a pretty distinctive 'voice' I suppose. From my vague memory of his stuff I guess no one moves sounds around like him.

Ans to this question: Milton Babbitt HELLO!! :-D

Carter is this perpetual gap in my listener-knowledge. I need to catch up on him like soon.

My love of G Crumb is a very personal thing-- his soundworld just suits me really really well. I know on some level that Ives is a greater composer (and I do like Ives a lot).

Carter is OKAY

http://thebadplus.typepad.com/dothemath/2007/10/working-with-th.html

liked his comments on being converted to the Concord Sonata after much professional doubting by Ives' own recording of 'The Alcotts' movement

Tilson Thomas is playing the 'Holidays' again in three weeks & recording it for television, I'm going twice

I'm w/ Jon here: Elliot Carter is no Charles Ives -- he's def. America's greatest modernist.

S: Unanswered Question, Concord Sonata (a trying listen, but fascinating), Central Park in the Dark, Symphony No. 4 and, perhaps above all, his songs.

My favorite story (among many) is how he was too sick to hear the Bernstein premiere of one of his symphonies (#2 or 3, I believe), so listened to it on the radio sitting in his living room. After it finished, he said nothing, got up, spit in the fireplace, and left the room.

story's more twisted than that -- he had to be dragged next door to hear the broadcast after refusing to attend the premiere in person because he was convinced everyone would hate it

In legend, Ives heard it on the maid's radio and did a little dance of joy afterward. In reality he was dragged next door to the Ryders' to hear the broadcast and, unlike similar occasions, sat quietly through the whole thing. It was one of his soft pieces, as he called them; it was also perhaps the warmest audience reception of his whole life. As cheers broke out at the end everybody in the room looked his way. Ives got up, spat in the fireplace, and walked into the kitchen without a word. Nobody could figure out if he was too disgusted or too moved to talk. Likely it was the latter (428-9).

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ives/WK_Sym_2.htm

Single best Ives disc I own is titled "When The Moon-- songs and sets". It's a bunch of his songs, along with the instrumental tone-poem-like versions of same.

the kronos quartet's version of g. crumb's black angels is easily the best thing i've ever heard by them

recently I've really enjoying unjust malaise, that julius eastman compilation on New World

William Strickland conducts Ives' Barn Dance, written 1908

I listen to my crappy tape of Ives' orchestral works in the car so much it's like pop now. "The Unanswered Question" is especially dear to me but I'll rep for "Robert Browning Overture" as well. There's this "noise in my head" quality to Ives.

Julio, how sincere are you being about Babbitt and Carter? I think MB's "Soli e duettini" for flute and guitar is lovely and surprisingly 'lyrical' but I never really clicked with much of the other stuff of his I've heard (although I had some good times listening to "Philomel" stoned in a field with my friend one summer.) I'd easily consider Ellington or even Brian Wilson before Philip Glass. Zorn certainly has a huge catalogue of music I like but I'm never sure how much of the credit he deserves as a composer (and how much should go to the performers, given how open a lot of his scores are.)

It's only recently that I heard Crumb's "Songs, Drones, and Refrains of Death." What a fantastic, thrilling piece! I love how the guitar is used.

What's a good instrumental Partch piece? I love his harmonic language and timbres but the vocal lines usually sink it for me.

(Copland = classic, obv.)

Anyway, if I had to pick one composer it might well be Cage.

Is Don Ellis considered a composer? I know it's not really that crazy, but I think the dude's pretty tight.

for instrumental Partch my favorite two are 'Castor & Pollux' & 'And On The Seventh Day Petals Fell In Petaluma'. 'Delusion of the Fury' is the big one -- most instrumental, some choral sections, no recitationals.

when people ask me about a good first disc for Ives I point them to the Tilson Thomas 'Holidays Symphony / Central Park in the Dark / Unanswered Question' CD on Sony. then a good version of the Concord (Marc-Andre Hamelin or Herbert Henck, or if you can find it the stereo John Kirkpatrick LP on Columbia, that one is still my favorite). then all the other symphonic stuff by Tilson Thomas, then everything else

& actually another good first Ives disc is the Gregg Smith Singers 'Music For Chorus' LP, that one is just mindroasting, sacred harp or tainted harp. I forget who wrote the music for 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' but my guess is he knew Ives' 'Psalm 90'

"recently I've really enjoying unjust malaise, that julius eastman compilation on New World"

What a beautiful compilation of some ballsy pieces! Penman wrote a really nice para or two on this blog back when. You should hunt down his singing on Maxwell Davies "Eight Songs for a Mad King" (that recording was paid for by Ken Russell) if you haven't. LPs of it knock at the rec and tape exchange over here.

"Julio, how sincere are you being about Babbitt and Carter?"

Half-joking. I think the policy for me is increasingly to leave names and countries and years aside to search for pieces of music that leave their mark. I really do regard Babbitt's "A Solo Requiem", the sooner they reissue of that the better. His music can be boring, fascinating and disturbing at the same time. Carter's piano concerto (from '65) has a terrific perf by Nicholas Hodges I first heard at the Carter fest they had over here a cpl of years ago. It is a pretty blood-and-guts conception of fast moving cross rhythms that seems to me to be worth the time; and just bcz it doesn't push some hammy experimental button it shouldn't be neglected.

http://www.thehighhat.com/Potlatch/009/hicken_place.html

Steve Hicken on Ives (and Agee) in the new High Hat.

listening to this last week:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ives/CD_Sets_Oldsongsderanged.jpg

one of my faves. (as is ives naturally. xCTHardcore4Everx!)

Charles Ives - General William Booth Enters Into Heaven - Gregg Smith Singers, 1966

^ faaaantastic.

Ives Newsletter – 2 September 2011

Ives’s West Redding house up for sale

Ives’s house in West Redding, Connecticut is about to go on the market. Since Ives’s death in 1954 the house has been occupied variously by Ives’s widow Harmony, their daughter Edith and her husband George Tyler, and more recently by Ives’s grandson, Charles Ives Tyler and his family. The house must be sold and therefore will go out of the family control. Due to the high value of the 18-acre prime property and its location, it is at risk of being torn down for new mansions to be constructed.

Charles Ives had the 11-room, three-story house built for him 1912. The property includes the main house (five bedrooms, three full bathrooms, one half bathroom), a two-bedroom guest house (sometimes known as“Eddie’s” or “Deac’s Cabin”), and the old red barn (which at one time housed Ives’s music manuscripts, his horse Rocket, and a Model T Ford). Also on the property are Ives’s tennis court and picturesque Ice Pond. The main house has been tastefully updated, but the original charm is intact, including sleeping porches off two of the bedrooms, clawfoot tubs, four fireplaces, a great room with a sixteen foot high coffered ceiling, numerous nooks and crannies, and, of course, Ives's music room.

A buyer sympathetic to the historical aspects of the property is needed. It will be listed at $1.5 million. A buyer could sell off about 6 acres, if necessary. The realtor handling the coming listing estimates that the main house could be rented out for about $4,000/month, the cabin for about $1,000/month. This property might suit a sympathetic investor who could own and then cover the operating expenses through rental income. Taxes on the property are approximately $14,000/year.

Please pass around word about the opportunity. Serious inquiries may be made to the realtor Paul Lutz of Coldwell Banker residential brokerage (p✧✧✧.l✧✧✧@cbmo✧✧✧.c✧✧; cell 203-240-0982).

Ives’s Birthhouse is dire straits

Danbury Patch (late Nov. 2010): “The house used to be open to the public, but the tours stopped a couple of years ago when a ceiling fell in. Now it sits waiting patiently for Danburians to appreciate its importance and SAVE it from ruin. "All it needs is a good, creative application of money," says Levi Newsome, who volunteers his time at the Danbury Museum and Historical Society Authority, on Main Street.

Brigid Guertin, Executive Director of the Museum loves the house and has very definite plans for its salvation. "The house has a personality all its own, like Charlie. It sings." Mrs. Guertin is preparing grant applications to cover the cost of restoration planning. At a minimum the house needs a new roof and siding as well as modern wiring. Beyond that, Mrs. Guertin knows what it will take to make the Ives House the kind of area attraction it should be. "We'd like to install surround-sound and interactive exhibits that will make the music of Charles Ives come alive," she muses.

All of that might cost a million dollars and Mrs. Guertin harbors no illusions. She knows that in this economy that kind of money won't be easy to come by. But she also knows the value of preserving our heritage. "I think that once it's restored the potential is tremendous. If we can recapture its historical interest people will come here from all over the world to see it." For those of us lucky enough to live in Charles Ives' Danbury, the house is just around the corner. If you would like to help, Mrs. Guertin is looking for volunteers willing to work or just supply ideas. You may contact her at 203-743-5200 or at d✧✧✧@danburyhistori✧✧✧.o✧✧. But if you find a marble, resist the urge to put it in your pocket.

Charles Ives Society is all a-Twitter

Sign up for Twitter to follow Charles Ives Society (ivessociety) and get their latest updates.twitter.com/ivessociety

AAAL Ives awards

The American Academy of Arts and Letters has announced the fifteen recipients of this year's awards in music, which total $165,000. Harmony Ives, the widow of Charles Ives, bequeathed to the Academy the royalties of Charles Ives' music, which has enabled the Academy to give the Ives awards in music since 1970. Two Charles Ives Fellowships, of $15,000 each, were awarded to Dan Visconti and Jay Wadley.

Christopher Cerrone, Louis Chiappetta, Michael Ippolito, Bryan Jacobs, Hannah Lash, and Alex Mincek received Charles Ives Scholarships of $7,500, given to composition students of great promise.

The winners were selected by a committee of Academy members: Ezra Laderman (chairman), David Del Tredici, Fred Lerdahl, Bernard Rands, Steven Stucky, and Yehudi Wyner. The awards were presented at the Academy's annual ceremonial in May. Candidates for music awards are nominated by the 250 members of the Academy.

Is there an American heritage charity that would step in?

great piece about the sad fate of the charles ives house in connecticut:

http://www.slate.com/id/2304213/pagenum/all/

That's heartbreaking. We just performed Psalm 67 Sunday morning at King's, which has been one of my favorite anthems since I first heard it 20 years ago; 8 parts, SSAA singing in C-major and TTBB singing in G-minor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLCToHOHVZA

dude was a genius

Beautiful.

oh man. the psalms are kind of the key to the guy. all the dissonances which people are so tempted to hear as cynical or destructive when applied to the pop or patriotic tunes, in the psalms come across as utterly felt and reverent

psalm 90 is the journey

& gregg smith's 'music for chorus' is one of my top 5 Ives LPs, still not reissued on CD - http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/charles_ives/music_for_chorus/

that slate piece

One day at Yale I discovered that much of the library of the recently deceased John Kirkpatrick, the pianist who premiered Ives' Concord Sonata and kept the flame for decades, was for sale on a table in the Music Library.

history is very fragile

FYI guys, if you go to rec.music.classical.recordings and search for 'Old Songs Deranged', you will find a flac upload of a very very good vinyl transfer of that wonderful never-reissued LP with cover artwork.

thanks!

If anyone comes across something similar for the choral LP ref'd by Milton a few posts above, give a holler.

The Mediafire link doesn't seem to work anymore. Is there another?

huh... I DL'ed it just last night?

There was an initial upload in 2009 and then a reup this year, are you sure you are looking at the reup?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.classical.recordings/tnOvWJ39wlk/fFYbatTyOLMJ

Just discovered "Central Park in the Dark" a few weeks ago and it's so great!

vinyl isn't hard to find. set you back 2 or 3 bucks.

x-post

I am only able to listen to classical music at the office (wife won't tolerate it) so I am p much limited to digital formats. They already let me dress like a slouch and crawl in at 10 am, don't wanna push it by setting up a Califone on my desk...

gotcha. anyway, great record. i probably have around 30 ives records at home and i doubt i paid much more than a buck or two for any of them.

the only composer i own more records by is brahms. man, i am nuts for brahms.

yeah, i do have the vinyl of this one actually, friends of the library sale Gainesville FL, IIRC. SO MANY great one dollar records from there...

Thanks, Jon. I must have been looking at the old link.

Buncha good broadcast recitals on that group too; search for threads titled 'upload'. Pletnev, Hamelin, Andsnes, Berezovsky etc.

That Ives recording is fantastic!

chorus - pretty sure anyone reading this thread is guaranteed to buy this if columbia ever gets around to reissuing it

seriously mad at those guys for sitting on all those sinclair / gunter schuller / gregg smith / kirkpatrick recordings of ives

:D fantastic! Can't wait to get home and grab this.

(Sony are also sitting on some v v important Charles Rosen recordings as well, the clods)

Been listening to some of his songs.

Didn't quite realise just how many he had composed, I'm pleasantly surprised. I was hoping they'd be more ever since hearing Ives himself sing They are There! on Ives plays Ives - which is a great release imo even if the recording quality is less than great.

http://gothamist.com/2014/02/12/photos_charles_ivess_studio_has_bee.php#photo-1

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/2014/04/what-is-the-concord-sonata.html

The Kirkpatrick recording is now available from sony as a digital download btw, along with a bunch of other interesting reissues in their 'Prophets of the New' series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT_EGXQwyk

wow

first tab = the Frying Pan Ocean Cam playing a stream of Hurricane Florence

second tab = complete recording of John Kirkpatrick's 1939 world premiere of the Concord Sonata at New York Town Hall

https://web.library.yale.edu/news/2018/09/rare-charles-ives-recordings-now-available