Greg Tate on the 30th Anniversary of Hip-Hop

and he's absolutely OTM. people have been saying this for a while.

tate is great.

Sure, but really, what could be expected of what began first and foremostly as party music? It was picked up as a political messenger for a time (black CNN and all), but c'mon now...

people have been saying this for a while.
So Tate brings nothing new to the table at a point where the music is totally fucking boombastically hot? He's got nothing to say other than, "where's about the message, the black nationalism, the politics and populism"? I see his point, but doesn't he ever just want to party like everyone else?

How fiery and forward-leaning he is.

Sure, but really, what could be expected of what began first and foremostly as party music? It was picked up as a political messenger for a time (black CNN and all), but c'mon now..."

its a bit naieve, yes. but that period from the late 80s through to the mid 90s is generally regarded as hip hop's peak, for right or wrong. at the end of the day though, its music, not a political party.

"people have been saying this for a while.
So Tate brings nothing new to the table at a point where the music is totally fucking boombastically hot? He's got nothing to say other than, "where's about the message, the black nationalism, the politics and populism"? I see his point, but doesn't he ever just want to party like everyone else?"

please. hip hop was tremendously hot in the 80s and 90s too. if youre only paying attention to the biggest songs, then yeah, it must seem at its peak, but while someone like jadakiss has one or two hot singles, his albums are crud.

greg isnt a fun-hater, he just wants some balance. im sure he loves party rap as much as anyone, he just doesnt want it reduced to lowest common denominator status, which a lot of hip hop subscribes too, rather too gladly.

90% OTM.

Why should hip-hop, let alone any genre of music, be held to this standard? Rail all you want, but music a fucking commodity, no matter how much it means to any one individual.

his voice of dissent amongst millions blissfully insisting the opposite does make him fiery and forward leaning.

this describes me fine and i'm perfectly okay with that. to the rest of those releases caught in the rut mentioned above, i guess i'm ignorant of it. my statement was made with blinders, but i don't retract it. blissful ignorance, i suppose...

Metal, for one example, seems to me to be refocusing on core values - bands like Mastodon and Lamb Of God and High On Fire are doing the best possible work while imposing strict rules and limitations on themselves. All their records are ways of saying "this is metal, that is not metal," without being stupid about it like Manowar. (Manowar always picked the worst/lamest/most cartoonish things about metal to lionize.) But pop isn't about that - it's all kid-in-a-candy-store, wanting everything at once instead of achieving pleasure through discipline. And hip-hop is the dominant pop music form - well, hip-hop and mall country, which is just as psychotically self-indulgent and self-absorbed. So what's to be done?

(phew I knew that American Studies degree would help me one day)

Has Tate ever heard Kwelikanyelifimmortaltechniquemursmosnaszionietcetera? Bling may be the dominant belief system at this particular cultural moment, but heretics ain't too hard to find.

haha man I wish I knew! This very question has been buggin me for the better half of a year (I think I even started a thread about it once). If history is any indication, we should be paying attention to what poor black kids are doing with freshly affordable technology, but nothing (apart from what's already instantly recognizable as hip-hop) seems to really be happening there. But I think that whatever happens, it will involve a sharp reconfiguration of methods, and yes, probably a rejection of the magpie aesthetic, something inherently minimalist with distinct boundaries. Mostly tho, I think it will require a *new way* of generating sound (a la the role of the distorted amplifier or the turntable in the past). New technologies (often plus new drugs!) = new music. What that new music will be in this particular case I have no idea. If I did I'd be doing it and not just talking about it on the internets...

and yeah theres mos, kweli etc etc but apart from maybe those two, murs, immortal technique and those guys arent being heard by anyone apart from the indie/underground/college audience these days, not 'the streets'.

and crunk isnt retro or backward looking - the sounds might be the same at times, but get low and that stuff doesnt sound like just miami bass os rick rubin beats from 84.

And therefore they're not hip hop, sez you?

Bullpucky.

Speaking of which: Tate sneers at "24 hour cable and PlayStations" as the post-millennial mass opiate ... then indicts all hip hop 'cause he dislikes the slice spoonfed him by Clear Channel?

What millions? Perhaps others choose to not belabor the obvious.

what? no one is saying that to begin with, as anyone who has ever danced to night of the living basheads, fight the power, jack of spades, my philosophy etc etc etc can tell you.

the article is great. it may be obvious, though I don't think it is to many people, because it's rarely argued that well.

I hadn't read his 'Street's Disciple' or 'Encore' reviews either.

How totally condescending. If "the People" had the right leaders, we'd all be fighting the power today *and* have kicking beats to back it up.

Consumers and politicians make choices based on their own self-interest. Deal with it.

Great. Grateful are we for Mr. Tate, who tells it straight and is only late.

I should also add entertainers to that.

And therefore they're not hip hop, sez you?"

where did i say they werent hip hop? of course they are. theyre just not shifting bootleg mix cds like g-unit in the areas where their message seems to be directed.

Or in a crate. Why did I have to prate on Tate? It was fate and he's your mate.

Ah but that's not Tate's point. He's not saying "I long for the mounds of great radical hiphop being made in the underground to proliferate across the fruited plain of Vivendi and Viacom." No, he's saying that w/o radio, TV and big money, hip hop "would cease to exist except as nostalgia." Personally I doubt it, but I can see where somebody who ignores not only the Kwelikanyelifimmortaltechniquemursmosnaszionis of the world but also the Diversedeadprezthecoupalisaulselfscientificbannerjeangraeandmores would think so.

But yeah

I dunno; wasn't there a general critical consensus that rock had lost its way around 1972 or so (with Lester Bangs fighting against it, of course)?

On the other hand ...

We'll tell them how once upon a time there was this marvelous art form where the Negro could finally say in public whatever was on his or her mind in rhyme ...
I'm far from a hip-hop expert, and I know the playing field isn't really equal in America, but isn't this truer now than ever? Seems the music is a symptom, and blaming it isn't helping anything.

-- m. (mitchnet70NOSPA...) (webmail), January 6th, 2005 11:18 AM. (mitchlnw) (link)

(i think i know what you mean, but i'm not certain)

-- m. (mitchnet70NOSPA...) (webmail), January 6th, 2005 11:22 AM. (mitchlnw) (link)

er, neither am i? i have an off and on flu, so my posts are liable to be erratic. i guess what i meant is that because of its populist/uniquely african-american origins, its privileging of rhetorical style, rap seems to have a lot of natural affinities w/a certain kind of politics. but i think a mistake is made when people translate those affinities as meaning that hip-hop either is or should be overtly political in its essence and is somehow "unfulfilled" when it fails to manifest that.

although tate is talking as much about alternative systems of music production/dissemination/etc. as about political rhetoric. as far as that goes, i don't really see hip-hop having more possibilities than most other genres at all.

Bullshit: http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres80.php

everything IS political, duh.

Polite way of putting it, but color me surprised regardless - i swear i read that somewhere. I think my point still stands, though.

"Greg Tate is an Old Man."

the whole white old boomer rocker vs. white young rap fan was really brought home for me recently. It was xmas eve, and i was over at the house of some friends of my family. The dad, who has pretty okay taste in rock (he's more up on stuff going on now than most 50+ dudes I know, he's a great guitarist, and his taste in old stuff is pretty broad), showed me his old stereo and turntable, he was psyched that they still work. We listened to a couple albums, and I picked out a Brothers Johnson one to listen to. His son comes in the room and the dad says something about "back in the 70s black people made great music, not that rap crap you listen to." I was so fucking embarassed. I mean I know this guy is deep down an eastern kentucky redneck moved to the city and gotten "some culture," but still.

Also, I liked Ned's point about western art upthread. It's interesting that no matter what, we sort of ascribe these western values to things (paging Geir! uh no just kidding). One of the things I like about a lot of non-western musics is how so many of them are political yet tied into just basic life kinda stuff - like ragas that are only supposed to be played at certain times of the day. I was thinking earlier today about how a lot of hip-hop is just awesome late-night party music, and not so interesting other times, as I was walking down Houston and some dude was blasting L'il Jon out his truck. It just seemed so dorky.

Better or simply different?

Tate to hip-hop: "You guys should be role models."
Defensive hip-hoppers to Tate: "I'm not a fucking role model. Shut up and get low!"

i, somewhat predictably, don't like this line of thought much at all

I do see political potential for hip-hop and absolutely I think social responsibility - particularly as it relates to misogyny and homophobia - could be only a good thing. But that doesn't mean I have to like his condecension.

i, somewhat predictably, don't like this line of thought much at all

sorry mitch, I certainly don't endorse it as being "what everyone should think" or something. It's just an opinion, almost more of a gut feeling to me.

Also, listening to hip-hop in a city is redundant (unless like at a basement party or something). It sounds better in a car on a long country drive. Heh.

Two points that intrigue me:

1. If you toted up sales figures for "political" (whatever) hip hop today, I wonder how that would compare to scans for PE. Point being, there may be MORE "political" hip hop today, even if none of it is getting over in (the oh-five equivalent of) a Spike Lee joint.

2. Was Greg Tate once the drummer in the rock band Gay Dad?

I think PE's highest charting single was in the 50s.

-- Nowhere in the piece does Tate say that hip hop of any kind is dead. That was said by one person on this thread.

Tate to hip-hop: "You guys should be role models."

How totally condescending. If "the People" had the right leaders, we'd all be fighting the power today *and* have kicking beats to back it up.

-- Nowhere in the piece does Tate say rappers should be role models or political leaders.

You're right--Tate just says "there's really nothing to celebrate about hiphop right now but the moneyshakers and the moneymakers". It "ain't about to do a goddamn thing other than send more CDs and T-shirts across the water". And without the promised reward of bucks or bling, "hiphop as we know it would cease to exist, except as nostalgia."

Doesn't much seem like he thinks there's a living, breathing, shit-kicking hip hop concerned with the community and doing it for love. And if you're not alive, well ...

Oh no!

Absolutely gutted to learn (from a trusted source) that Greg Tate has left this dimension. What a hero he’s been — a fiercely original critical voice, a deep musician, an encouraging big brother to so many of us. Total shock. pic.twitter.com/JMzCnj3Asb

— Nate Chinen (@natechinen) December 7, 2021