Were the NWOBHM bands (Iron Maiden, et al) *REALLY* influenced by punk?

26.11.03 – Sporthalle Hamburg

Interviewer: The first two Maiden albums to me sound like a mixture of hard rock and punk.

SH: Sorry, but I hate punk. I don´t know where you get that impression from. It´s probably the aggression. It was really the flaming aggression of young guys that have energy and power. So the songs are rather fast. But we have never had any relation to punk. We absolutely hated that. Most of them couldn´t play but they got gigs and gigs at that time. It pissed us off cause we can play and they can´t play. It became fashionable, so we hated it.

"We formed in 1976. When Brian (Tatler - Guitarist) and I were still at school-at fifteen. you know we're just coming off the 25th anniversary of our formation that we started last June. So our getting together is part of a continuation of that too. We were inspired by the classic British bands like Free, Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Sabbath, Priest. and at the time Punk Rock was just beginning to happen, around '76 or '77, and that was basically the catalyst for us. Punk Rock just said, "Hey, you don't gotta be great players. You can just make any old racket," or rather, you can 'aspire' to be great. We started off writing our own originals, spent three years writing and had just enough songs to do a show. and so the songs like "Am I Evil," "Helpless," and "It's Electric" sort of came together over that period around 1980. "

Chris: How did the band come to be on Trial Records?

Mark: "Well, the label, which is owned by a bloke called Steve Guy-Clarke, had just started up and we were approached by them about making a record, and that's how 'One Of These Days' came to be. That's one thing that we've got to thank punk for. If it hadn't been for punk, small labels would not now be so widely used."

Geoff: But now's different to three months ago, there's more competition than ever before in the HM field. Don't you think that Samson are in danger of being swamped by a glut of metal bands — good and bad; bandwagon jumpers and genuine articles — at the moment? if the group had happened at the beginning of '80 there'd have been no such problem . . .

Bruce: "It's the punk thing all over again, isn't it? Record companies are just applying their 'punk blueprint' to heavy metal and everything's going ever so slightly silly. I know what you're saying, new metal bands seem to be popping up every five minutes. They may mean it, they may be committed to the music, they may not, it's up to the public, not me, to say, to judge them, assess their worth. All I know is that you mustn't let it get on top of you. Once all the craziness has died down, then we'll see what happens."

Interviewer: "It’s also often mentioned that Tank was one of the first and most important NWOBHM bands in the early 80’s."

Cliff: "Yeah I guess that … When Tank first came out in 1980 it was a totally new thing. NWOBHM was just starting and were there kind of from the start and … Tank was a first NWOBHM band to go top 20 in the charts you know? Before Iron Maiden Tank was in there. We were doing very well. That big punk influences obviously which Algy bring to the band bring a lot of fans from that genre but we were accepted in the metal scene as well so it did big following. It’s quite legend. I think the album indeed with the machine gun etiquette it’s cool. And when you listen to it … it it’s a great album, one the best albums, so it’s a lot of metal in there.."

They hardly all went faster and harder. There was a big mix of styles, some of them shoehorned because of studio budget constraints.

Some examples...

Witchfynde was not what I would have called a faster and harder band.
Girlschool was but they were sonically influenced mostly by Motorhead to my ears.

Samson was a poor hard rock band that gradually got better. Their fastest and best album was their third, the second with Dickinson.
But the one before it -- with the tremendous photo of Thunderstick on the cover -- was a poorly produced mid-tempo straight metal album.

(Incidentally, I'm not trying to criticize the question or imply that it's meaning was unclear, not at all. Just something that occurred to me while reading it.)

Anyhow, after reading the actual thread, I value the Diamond Head guy's take on the whole thing, ie. influenced by the DIY aspect of punk rather than anything musical.

I'd have to agree. And depending on the time of day, you can always find someone who'll say something he doesn't mean for the interviewer re punk rock, just to sound all right and part of some happy cool club.

You look through heavy metal records, even those not specifically of the NWOBHM, and you'll occasionally find what they really think. Case: Pat Travers, who landed in London around the time of punk rock. Started putting out heavy records and eventually became a lower level arena draw in the States. "Putting it Straight" has a song called "Life in London" in which he calls out punk rockers for looking like clowns. He was always frank in his disrespect. Same album has McBain on drums, who wound up in Maiden a year or two later.

Burke Shelley of Budgie said punk rock killed his band, at least as far as the record labels were concerned, and Budgie were -cheap- to produce and subsequently make a small profit on. But the NWOBHM then revived them.

*i always thought they were as a kid cuz metallica liked 'em but now they don't seem like they were that similar to those bands

Sonically, since there was so much variance in NWOBHM bands Budgie fit right in. "Crash Course in Brain Surgery" is fast. "Homicidal Suicidal" is slow. The album "Never Turn Your Back on a Friend" has a Motorhead-like before Motorhead sound on "Breadfan" and "Baby Please Don't Go." "Napoleon Bona Pts. 1 & 2" go with a faster, louder style of rave-up. Slow ballads, funky beats ("If I Were Britannia, I'd Waive the Rules") -- Budgie was all over the place.

Budgie was genre recession proof. Any age, you find people who say they like heavy metal, eventually they're going to appreciate some Budgie even if Metallica doesn't lead them to it.

Of course, many an aging UK punk will tell you that they weren't doing anything other than bringing back good ol' no-nonsense rock and roll. That may be the subtle link between NWOBM, hard pub rock, US punk, and UK punk that allowed all to survive the flushing out process between '76 and '79.

Evidence to support the argument: early `Maiden recordings, specifically Paul D'ianno's gruff vocal delivery. Then there's the Mama's Boys' (regrettably dire) cover of "If the Kids Are United" by Sham 69.

Yep, some clinkers there, I'm assuming you're talking of "An Ecstasy of Fumbling." "Panzer Division Destroyed," "She Used Me up," and "Forarm Smash" are about the best of it, and -- I think -- were the tunes latched onto during their run in the late NWOBHM. The later stuff is a lot cornier than usual Budgie without much compensation in the guitar department.

Lots of things of very tangential worth got thrown into the NWOBHM pot. Christ Child, for instance, who did not even seem to be British but who may have had a single releasein the UK.

Amusingly, as hard rock record, Christ Child was rated MUST TO AVOID by Christgau. So the pros know it's actually a fair to pretty entertaining record. He missed the best cut, "Five Finger Exercise."
I'd rate them in with NWOBHM Marseille's first album, the one written for a porn movie called "The French Way."

CHRIST CHILD: Hard (Buddah) This is not punk rock. This is an ambitious, anonymous bunch of heavy metal pros who thought it might be timely to use the words "punk" and "New Wave" on the back of their debut LP, and who are now really pissed at Johnny Rotten. Inspirational Verse: "Blow it up/Tear it down."

http://www.nwobhm.com/cchild.htm

hell yeah. that's what i was not so directly referring to way upthread, in fact.

*I'm in Canada and, more or less, started with Iron Maiden in '83 (in the big mid-80's suburban metal-wave), went back from there to Nektar, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Genesis, sideways from there to Van Der Graaf Generator, Amon Duul, PFM, Heldon, Henry Cow, Goblin, etc., at the same time as forward to Cosmic Overdose, Swell Maps, Mittagspause, Zoviet-France, etc. and then back to late 70's-early 80's heavy music like Cirith Ungol, Fist and Mythra in the last couple of years, now that I can hear them differently and have astonishingly better access to reissues, etc.. I do remember Mama's Boys from around 1984, though, and I thought they were decent at the time. I have no idea what I'd think now, but I'm curious.

...remember the mama's boys as being kind of like a Triumph-style pop/pomp metal crossover type band....never had an album...i thought they looked like dorks in Circus so I never bought it.*

*not that all the bands didn't look like dorks and I still bought crap like Y&T so i don't know what i was being so snotty about....

Yes, for a trifling period. John DuCann said so in one of the reissues I have. They had a couple releases after they had been dead and buried around "Nice & Greasy." And there's some live stuff floating about. It's actually better than what Budgie published in their second lease on life.

Vincent Crane was always going to be an aquired taste, though, and it didn't last long for them. They didn't get the mileage out of it that Budgie did.

Atomic Rooster was always a better Witchfynde than Witchfynde. Depression and metal illness, through Crane's writing, was a big part of their sound and he was very effective at finding musicians to communicate it.

Vardis -- Guitarist Steve Zodiac, named after the Fireball XL5 marionet. Boogie band, so corroded and ashenly produced it doesn't sound much like a boogie band. Aquired taste, often amusing amateurish.

Raven -- Oh man, the best from "Wiped Out" and "Rock Till You Drop."
Marseille -- has been covered.
Quartz -- I did not get.
Cloven Hoof -- hokey D&D and goth metal, live stuff redeems it since they were so clueless or underfunded in studio.
Geordie -- glam band that had some chart action when Brian Johnson was the singer. Grabbed by Neat for the NWOBHM, sans Johnson. Awful!
Saxon -- Not on Sanctuary, but penned one of my favorite biker rock songs, "Strong Arm of the Law."
Savage -- I forget whether I liked it or not. Possibly I did a little.
AIIZ -- has anyone reissued this? I wish they would.

The basic albums have their high points. The first, "Atomic Rooster" is pure lugubrious slit your wrists in the bathtub music. "Banstead" is tops. Horrible crushing black depression -- not metal -- organ goth with Crane writing "please get me out of this place" about his stay in a mental institution.

"Made in England," another aquired taste. Crane drafts Chris Farlowe who proceeds to try to be James Brown while Crane directs the backing band in alternately funky and pre-goth metal flavors. I like it, many others do not.

Budgie was genre recession proof. Any age, you find people who say they like heavy metal, eventually they're going to appreciate some Budgie even if Metallica doesn't lead them to it.

they're like if rush never got neil pert

Funny thing is I discovered them by accident cause while housesitting for a metalhead friend in college, I randomly decided to listen to a cassette marked simply "Budgie" wondering why the fuck my friend had anything by Siouxsie's drum-banging lover in his collection. First I was like "This isn't that Budgie dude." Then I was like "This is pretty fucken good."

Good thing too, cause sci-fi bird people on record covers isn't the kind of thing that really sings to me from the bins when I'm record shopping for stuff I haven't even heard.

To sort of answer the original question, I always thought the DIY aspect of punk was helpful to just about every marginal genre at that time, so I guess I agree with this comment most:

Anyhow, after reading the actual thread, I value the Diamond Head guy's take on the whole thing, ie. influenced by the DIY aspect of punk rather than anything musical.

I first heard Motorhead on a mixtape from a friend in `83 and immediately assumed they were a Punk band until I heard their name and saw their picture.

but wasn't it pretty real in early cali thrash...obv. metallica and slayer did lots of punk songs on their respective cover records...and the NYC thrashers like Anthrax and Nuclear Assault were big hardcore guys (scott ian even looked like a hardcore guy, at least after he lost his hair).

Hmmmm, not so much as one thinks. Slayer and Metallica didn't sound anything like soCal punk rock. I didn't hear any Poshboy or Rodney on the ROQ-band sound. And the early Combat and Shrapnel bands didn't sound so much punk as they sounded poorly produced or wretched.

Does punk = wretched? For many it does, confusing the issue.

and the NYC thrashers like Anthrax and Nuclear Assault were big hardcore guys (scott ian even looked like a hardcore guy, at least after he lost his hair).

Lining the backstage with a wall of three-high dummy Marshall cabinets is punk? A little joke. Although ... I'd say the Nuclear Assaulters were mining the wretched punk vein when they did "Butt-fuck!, but were merely wretched when they covered Led Zeppelin.

Thanx Alex, that's the funniest sentence I've read here in days, and I read a lot of 'em! Partly 'cause of the term "goat-throwin", which I've honestly never encountered before today and was taking literally. 'Goat-throwing' = devil's-horns gesture, now I get it. Still, a hilarious title for anybody's live DVD! Incidentally, when I saw Redd Kross in '90, the audience got the joke & mostly PREFERRED them to the opening act, Sonic Youth.

Anyway, a question: Was there a lot of uniformity in sound among the NWOBers? Did they mostly sound similar or just get lumped together because they all emerged at the same time/place?

Maiden, Priest, saxon etc were for the denim, mullet and shite trainer brigade, The only crossover band were Motorhead.

Granted, the aforementioned DRI and the likes of COC took it further, but to these ears and eyes the NWOBHM had more in common with Whitesnake, Foreigner and all that other dross

Hear the rime of the ancient mariner, motherfuckers.

Labels, labels, labels.

Skinny tie & leather!

http://territorio.terra.com.br/canais/rockonline/noticias/fotos/2_2269.jpg

No. That's what makes it excellent to delve into. They were just tied together by locale and time. Demon sounded nothing like Saxon which sounded nothing like Witchfynde which sounded nothing like Samson etc.

I almost want to start a thread about it, but I fear there will be maybe three people who know and less who care.

It seems these days that 'the kids' are possibly a bit less pigeon holed. A bit more eclectic as they say.

Or perhaps it was just my snobby school or my stuck up self?

I still haven't really checked out any early Whitesnake! Where should I start if I get a minute?

Saints and Sinners ('82) is a must-hear if you're interested inspecting early Whitesnake. If for nothing else because it contains the original versions of a couple songs (most notably "Here I Go Again") before they really got the hair metal cheese treatment that made them singles on the '87 self-titled big-hit-in-America record.