*Just Introducing Myself*

Trouble is, the kid is obviously talented. It's in his blood to ham it up and 'multitask' and be a triple threat or whatever, but the music he writes and records is deeply personal and not at all what you'd call 'superficial.'

For years I ignored his 'art' - I'm not running a charity - despite my wife's pleas that we needed to 'save him' and that we could be the 'cool' membes of the family that ushered im into a world of new music. I resent this, because everything I learned, I learned on my own. My dad bought me some Mr. Mister 45s when I was nine, and ever since, I've spent my money on very few things other than records. I didn't have an older brother from whom I'd borrow the entire Earache catalog, learn the hard way the perils of buying hip hop on album format, or why Led Zepp was especially good and Kingdom Come was especially bad.

I judged the kid (and still do, to some extent) for not exploring further. If he loved music so much, I argued, why does he only listen to Fastball, The New Radicals, and Barenaked Ladies? I didn't even HAVE the internet when I was his age. There's no excuse.

My wife bought him a few Elvis Costello records for his birthday a year or two ago. Her brother liked them, but it didn't seem to make much impact on his music. I wasn't surprised - he's 18, and what I'd consider a lost cause by now.

Over this Xmas break, he gave us a new CD of demos he made. 4 of the six songs were horrible exercises in cliche, like pompously naming an instrumental opening track "Overture" and singing lyrics I'd rather not even type. These missteps could have easily been avoided by having some kind of 'taste' barometer, the Brita filter that years of rock criticism and trial and error have given me that the kid just doesn't have. It would have also helped if he owned more than 25 CDs.

Two of the songs on his demo, though, are GREAT pop songs. If it wasn't osmosis, it was instict that made him write two very nice tunes - one very Elliot Smith-y and one that sounds a little like I Should Coco-era Supergrass. I was impressed, perhaps even more so because I knew for a fact that the deepest into 'indie' this kid got was buying the last Modest Mouse record, at the insistence of his sister, my wife. Even if it wasn't exactly 'outsider art' he WAS writing decent music in something of a vaccuum.

Now, do I encourage the guy? My first instinct is 'no.' But after all my wife's talk of 'saving him' and whatnot, I figured, what was the harm in making a mix CD for the guy? And that's what I did. But where the FUCK to start? I wasn't sure he even knew who Nirvana was.

I put on all the things that blew me away as a young 'un, and changed the way I looked at music (all but the 'difficult' stuff, which I discovered much later, anyway) - Misfits, Pixies, Sonic Youth, Zombies, Kinks - each song I put on there I found myself unable to believe he hadn't heard. How do you go through adolescence WITHOUT "Teenage Riot?" How do you get through high school WITHOUT "In A Jar?" etc etc. But then I realized what a geezer / Comic Book Guy I was being.

Still, these days, when even the OC and Gilmore Girls are dropping 'indie' references like they were trying to win some sort of contest, when every other car commercial features a great and classic song instead of the mindless jingles I grew up hearing, when movies like High Fidelity, which references everything from US Maple to Peter Frampton, are available at any Blockbuster, I still maintain there's no excuse, and feel like maybe I'm not being such a Comic Book Guy. Maybe I just resent frontrunners, Johnny-Come-Latelys and tourists, like anyone passionate about a subject, be it Dungeons and Dragons or college football.

I haven't sent the CD yet, but I guess I'll send it out with the usual eBay / label bounty on Tuesday. I'll keep you posted.

The message here is...I'm not sure. But in hip-hop, if you don't know your roots, if you're unaware of certain fundamentals, you're laughed out of the cipher, dog. There's a very fine line between snobbery and genuine passion, and everybody on ILM straddles that line every day. My advice would be to build yourself a foundation so as not to be confused / confounded when you hear Radio 4 first and Gang of 4 second.

And welcome!

Hey, if it makes you feel any better I have been collecting records for over 20 years, and I'm intimidated when I walk into Amoeba. Last time I went shopping there (my girlfriend and I actually made a trip to SF just to record shop) I was in the store for almost 8 hours total in one day. That place is ridiculous. (Don't ask how much I spent there.)

You're very lucky though, that your local used record store is that good. If you lived somewhere else it's likely you wouldn't always be able to find stuff you were looking for.

I won't hit you with theories about why bands like DMB and Coldplay get so much abuse around here, but I will say that one of the greatest things about ILM, to me, is the fact that you really don't get the gang-up effect I've encountered elsewhere among serious enthusiasts. Which is to say everyone here really cares about music, everyone here has their own interests and areas of most knowledge (some are broader and/or deeper than others, but everyone's got them), and very few if any of the regular posters agree across the board. (Go find a thread about Interpol and find out how much this board agrees on them. Heheheh.)

The more familiar we become with each other and each other's tastes here, the more likely we are to not take it personally when someone else trashes our favorite band (and lets face it, negative descriptions of music can be quite funny, and that's often why we bother to draw out distaste rather than just ignoring a thread on a band we could give two shits about). We're also more likely to look into something we aren't familiar with or previously thought we disliked because of the opinion of someone we tend to agree with otherwise. If nobody else in all of ILM likes Coldplay, and you do, no matter how many jokes the rest of us make about them being a shitty band, the community as a whole is not going to look down on you for liking them. Sometimes it'll feel that way, and certain individuals certainly will be more forceful than others about it than others (no I am not secretly referring to anyone specific... it just stands to reason that this is the case), but there's no reason to change your taste in music by removing something you like just because ILM by and large doesn't like it.

(In fact, right now there are a couple threads doing a great job of raking Drivin' and Cryin' through the mud, and I really like that band a lot, but I don't feel like everyone who is ragging on them is ragging on my taste in music as a whole or that they think I'm a moron because I like that band. Because every one of them probably likes at least one band that the rest of ILM will laugh at, and because every one of them probably agrees with me on other stuff I like. In fact sometimes it can be fun to be the underdog once everyone knows you're the one documented person on the board who likes so-and-so.)

Also, don't discount Top 40 radio, because quite a bit of it is discussed here, and it's not always the case that we all agree it's shit. I personally don't like much of Top 40 at all these days, but I very much like that ILM often considers it with as much importance as the other stuff. It's great that you've discovered stuff you didn't know before and opened up new doors for yourself as a listener, but don't be embarrassed about where you came from musically, because that informs you just as much as what you're listening to now, and if you still like some of it chances are you'll figure out who likes it here (and somebody will).

I'm happy you've joined the rest of us, and I think it's really cool that you are able to question the workings of ILM right off the bat and start a whole thread to make yourself known.

Also, re: your liking Interpol meaning you should check out Joy Division: Yes. Also look for The Chameleons UK. I think Interpol ripped off the Chameleons more than they ripped off Joy Division, but that's just me (and truth be told I'm one of the ones who doesn't like Interpol much, though I love both of the other bands I just mentioned).

Rock on.

PS if you like Calexico you owe it to yourself to find and listen to Giant Sand. I'll let you suss out how they're related.

I liked all that britpop stuff when i was about 10/11 and then got into metal and indie rock stuff that would get played on the evening sessions (peel was a bit too late for me). Until i was about 17 i had the indie attitude of 'indie rules, hip hop etc sucks'. Now i can hardly stand indie, apart from the albums that were special to me at the time. I mainly listen to pop, dance and hiphop.

I used to know a guy, Pete, when I was an university, who said similar things to yourself, but in so many ways, he had it together way more than his peers, who were considerably more confident than him.

Being under pressure to like things and fear of put downs by others is natural; however, it seems clear that you're not going to give in to this... Good stuff.

In my experience, the music I like has largely come about through recommendations from friends I trust. Often people will tell you a way to like things... For example, I've just listened to Ege Bamyasi by Can bearing in mind what Bimble posted on another thread this morning, and these sorts of things can help you see things in a whole new light; see things you haven't seen before.

A friend of mine recently gave me a great piece of advice about this board, if you feel people are getting at you in at any point in their posts, read out their posts in the voice of the comic store guy from the Simpsons.

Heh, I don't think most people here on ilM get them either. I can't decide whether I like or hate the former...and I would steer far away from the latter. Hell, I'd steer clear of most everything Pitchfork recommends (although their Xiu Xiu reviews are spot on, but that's not something I'd recommend for anyone).

I used to absolutely love Joy Division (now they give me the yawns) and I think The Chameleons are pretty swell, but I don't know what is up with people thinking Interpol sounds like them. Only on the quietest moment on "Leif Erikson" (about 2:12) do they sound like the former, and they use reverb guitars in a fashion like The Chameleons (but so do many bands and I don't see anyone tearing their arses about it!). I can see a little more of a case being made for Interpol sounding like Kitchens of Distinction ("Specialist" reminds me of KoD's "Blue Pedal" and Paul Banks has a similar tone of voice compared to Patrick Fitzgerald), but really Interpol are just Josef K transplanted from 80's Edinburgh to 00's NYC...and they're still good.

My parents were children of the Eighties, so I simply absorbed a lot of their tastes and expanded upon them.

I've found my tastes haven't evolved perhaps as quickly, but there's that occasional moment such as driving to work and realising that something like 'Trick Me' is a *brilliant* piece of pop.

OK, I still love a lot of the indie-ness that informed my teens and 20's - in my car CD at the moment are 'Still', 'Ask Questions Later', 'Moonhead' and 'Troublegum' for instance - but I've noticed some sort of underlying shift.

The Strokes or Kings Of Leon, for example, who I know I'd have *loved* ten years ago, I don't get at all. Oh, it's a mystery all right.

I also recommend actually purchasing CDs, depending on your budget, especially if you like them. I'm not actually sure why this helps yet, it might because when you invest in something (in this case the CD) you subconsciously are more attached to it and prone to like it more, therefore increasing your love of music. Anyway, I don't know how much of a rookie you are, but if you're looking for a good foundation or something, I'd recommend obtaining all the acclaimed CDs by these six artists (just as a primer):

1. Pavement (S & E, CRCR, Wowee Zowee, Brighten the Corners, Terror Twilight)
2. Pixies (Come On Pilgrim, Doolittle, Surfer Rosa, Bossanova, Trompe le Monde
3. Sonic Youth (EVOL, Sister, Daydream Nation, Goo, Murray Street, Sonic Nurse..... and maybe Dirty, if you feel like it.)
4. Miles Davis (Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, Tribute to Jack Johnson, and, really, everything he ever did)
5. David Bowie (Hunky Dory, Ziggy Stardust, Aladdin Sane, Station to Station, "Heroes", Low, Scary Monsters)

Those aren't necessarily the best artists ever, but I think everyone can agree they're important and most everyone will agree that they're discographies are consistently brilliant.

Okay, that's my piece. I usually don't write so much, but it's nice to have a thread for people my level ;)

I sort of know what you mean here. I remember shortly after college, when I moved to Chicago, I met this hipster asshole who worked at a college radio station and was only into really, really obscure stuff. Apparently, he mentioned minimalism in conversation once, and my friend Kelsey said, "oh yeah, cool, I love Philip Glass and Steve Reich," to which he replied with a pointed "pfft," since they were too popular or something. Also, at the time, I was a big fan of the Chicago post-rock scene (Tortoise, The Sea and Cake, etc.) and told him that I was excited to be living in Chicago so I could check out shows more often. He went on this harangue about how Tortoise is so overrated and how everyone loves Tortoise 'cause they're trendy, etc. I got all defensive and tried to argue with him to no avail, but later I realized that part of the reason he got to me was because I'd never run up against that attitude before; the only people I knew who'd even heard of Tortoise obviously liked them. I mean, if you were seeking them out in the first place, it's because there was something about them that appealed to you.

But I guess that's how communities work. The hipster was obviously surrounded, as I wasn't, by lots of people who listened to Tortoise and Steve Reich, and so he felt the need to differentiate himself by getting into AACM and Tony Conrad (or whatever). (I'm not sure why those examples surfaced, and I bet someone else on here could easily come on and say, "why they're not obscure at all, every minimalist dork listens to Conrad," which kinda proves my point.)

Another example: A couple of years ago, it seemed like almost everyone I knew was into a certain safe-sounding strain of indie rock (Flaming Lips, Wilco, Interpol), and I suddenly felt like being into indie no longer had the cachet of adventurousness as I thought it did in high school and college, when I was in love with Pavement, Sonic Youth, and Stereolab. Upon discovering ILM, I realized that there was a lot of music outside that world that I'd been ignoring, and that what I really needed a primer in was all of the Top 40 stuff that I'd disavowed long ago! And so now I get odd looks from folks when I talk about how hot the new Gwen Stefani single is.

Not that I fall in lockstep with ILM consensus either: I don't own any of their albums, but I actually have a soft spot for Coldplay most of the time. ("Clocks," in particular, is one of my favorite singles of the last couple of years.)

I feel this way quite a lot, and I write about music for money. I hear bands that sound like absolute shit to me all the time, and they're mostly bands that every other critic seems to fucking adore. So if you're still just in it for the love, remember that it could be worse.

-- polyphonic (polyphoni...), January 16th, 2005.

a lotta people would disagree with this (eps. BTC - you can't top the Stereo / Shady Lane double, and lets not forget type slowly and blue hawaiian.. all great songs)

to this day I haven't heard any of Joy Division's stuff

Ah. You might want to correct this. (I am however biased in that I am known hereabouts as the lover of them JD/Comsats/Chameleons/Sound/Cure/etc. things who wishes to slap Interpol upside the head with a stinky fish and ruin their nice suits. And despite other's protestations it's not because I think they just rip them all off or anything, it's just that they're a band who do a really great job in making a certain style sound really bad! See also: the Darkness)

A more serious recommendations -- try For Against, who along with the Abcedarians were the first notable dyed-in-the-wool American Factory/Hannett/postpunk in the sense I have just described bands back in the mid-eighties.

Most importantly of all -- when it comes to things you like and hate about music, stick to your guns and don't be afraid to change your mind. Those recommendations aren't contradictory, but complementary.

The records that are discussed here appear to be mostly Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, from 1988 and 1991 respectively, pretty much when they dropped from public consciousness apart from the aforementioned things in 1990. No great surprise I guess given the content of these records. There was a greatest hits record then.

Out of curiosity, which Amoeba do you live near? People who work at record stores can look surly, but ask them for recommendations, and they'll warm up. You'll likely come out of the store with some pretty good albums.

...and I suddenly felt like being into indie no longer had the cachet of adventurousness as I thought it did in high school and college, when I was in love with Pavement, Sonic Youth, and Stereolab. Upon discovering ILM, I realized that there was a lot of music outside that world that I'd been ignoring, and that what I really needed a primer in was all of the Top 40 stuff that I'd disavowed long ago! And so now I get odd looks from folks when I talk about how hot the new Gwen Stefani single is.

Hahah, me too.

Heheh. Well, reverb yes, but more importantly delay. That's not the real reason I think Interpol has more Chameleons than Joy Division in them, though.

If I were just gonna talk about Reg's guitar sound, I'd be mentioning The Edge. Cause it's a damned distinct sound, and The Edge has become one of those few guitarists with a very well defined "signature sound," but if Chameleons had somehow become more successful than U2, guess who we'd think of first when we heard the old yellow Boss Overdrive pedal played through a shitload of stereo delay into a Vox?

Martin, I'll definitely check out the Chameleons (I've already worn out the clips on Amazon).

poortheatre, I have absolutely none of those CDs you list in your primer, which indicates to me that I've got some work to do. I appreciate the advice.

jaymc and polyphonic, you expressed what I was struggling to pinpoint; it's the not-so-strange need to continually differentiate ourselves that I guess drives people to spurn what would otherwise be perfectly good music.

thanks to everyone for telling me to stick to my guns, for understanding, for relating, and for accepting.

btw, babyalive, I frequent the Amoeba in SF. I only discovered it about 6 months ago and it takes an extraordinary amount of discipline to not go there all the time. It's not so much the clerks that intimidate me (although they kinda do), but moreso the other customers browsing the racks. I feel around them the same way how one would feel walking around Harvard or how an average around-the-block jogger would feel around a bunch of triatheletes.