Taking Sides: "Southern Man" by Neil Young vs. "Sweet Home Alabama" by Lynrd Skynrd

Drive-By Truckers, "Ronnie and Neil" from Southern Rock Opera

Turn it up, it's Skynyrd by far.

What was the Warren Zevon song that mentioned this controversy?

i like the clean guitar tone in sweet home alabama! but i wouldn't call it flat.

I think I'm a huge fan of this song because of it's sound, actually. There's something about how Neil's voice is projected that I find really unique. Couple that with the afore-mentioned tempo changes, the manic guitar playing and the RIGHTEOUSLY ACCUSATORY EXHORTING and it's a fuckin' classic.

"Sweet Home Alabama" just makes me sneer derisively.

I don't have a hell of a lot of time for late '60s/early '70s Neil Young tracks that aren't "Heart of Gold" or from Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere, so I call it an uncompelling draw. "Like A Hurricane" vs. "Freebird" is a hell of a lot more interesting a matchup, I figure.

Huh?

1) last spring i was driving to pensacola and i had been in country for awhile and the sky was just gorgeous, so blue, bluest sky i'd ever seen, and i remember thinking 'damn, skynyrd were right'. anyhow it turned out i was outside la grange, still in georgia.

2) anecdotal evidence, witness firsthand SEVERAL times: if you are from alabama and in iceland and they ask where you're from and you say 'alabama' they WILL sing 'sweet home alabama' to you. EVERY TIME.

I own a radio, and it causes me much ire (witness my hate rants directed at Classic Rock Radio of the past few weeks).

Seriously, is there a Madonna tune that swipes the hook from "Sweet Home Alabama"?

Southern Man, easy.

"Sweet Home Alabama" just makes me sneer derisively.

But that's cause you're a dick, though.

But a couple of songs later they played Neil Young's "Harvest Moon," so I don't know what that means...

yeah, that's a real achievment.

Anyway, The version of Southern Man on 4 Way Street kicks the ass of anything Skynyrd ever did.. and if you're going to compare lyrics, I'll take "Hey redneck, get in this century." over "Yeehaw! Confederacy, love it or leave it. Pass me a brew!"

cf. To Die For

Stevie Wonder - If you really love me

Pink Floyd - wish you were here

Neil Young - Southern Man

OK 4

The Dears - We can have it

No worries, the answer is now Patterson Hood.

Leonard Skynard on the other hand can rock the heavens with their mighty sound, but let's face it, they wouldn't know a political issue if it bit them in the ass.

They do have that one about the 'vironment...

and leeds united rule!!!![real football]

Lynard Skynard were, and remained, fans of Neil Young. The line in Sweet Home Alabama was meant as a good-natured response to Young.

Skynard and Young toured together, and members of Skynard often wore t-shirts with Young on them.

They wrote this as a tribute to the studios at Muscle Shoals, Alabama, where they recorded in 1971.

The feud between Lynyrd Skynyrd and Neil Young was always good-natured fun. They were actually big fans of each other. Ronnie Van Zant often wore Neil Young T-shirts on stage and is wearing one on the cover of Street Survivors, the last Skynyrd album before his death.

do a little research.

(I say all this as the founding member of the 'Association of Canadians Ashamed of Neil Young')

As far as the Association of Canadians Ashamed of Neil Young, There is a small island in the south pacific you should feel right at home on. You should truly be ashamed to say such a thing.

Another remark you've made should inspire shame as well: "...many of the arguments for ar against southern man, and sweet home, are purely subjective". Do you not see how your argument is also entirely subjective? You have presupposed the response of Skynyrd based on transference of your impressions of the song onto them. Utter hypocrisy! Objectivity does not play into assessing music, only a strong set of subjective reasons which may apply across limited groups. That being said, I will proceed to deliver a few mor:

The Association of Canadians Ashamed of Neil Young would like to point out that Young's musical ineptitude is readily demonstrable: you'll note this from the fact that any hack guitarist can lift his entire oeuvre in one pass of each song. Moreover, the Association feels it incumbent upon us to note that Youngs political brayings are no more noble than when Michael Moore came to Canada and wrote in our national newspapers telling us how we ought to vote. Indeed, his political meddling is deplorable. Normally, music would not be related to a person's politics, but Young has decided to break down this boundary. That being so, we proudly wave our Canadian flags and turn to a different radio station whenever Young's whining is heard.

I appreciate the view that Neil Young brought to the table as a wouldbe outsider. His perspective, while far from definitive, certainly presents a clarity rarely put forth by folks like Skynrd (if ever). Racial and social issues are most certainly better handled by folks like Guthrie or Seegar or Havens. Young certainly deserves credit for at least trying to keep these issues on the table, and further more, the "fuzz" of his electric more suitibly akins itself to the seedier hatred of his time. Young, by a country mile.

Try this on for size: Neil Young; more American than any gd Confederate i ever saw! ...i'm gonna be sorry i said that, shucks, i already am.

Being that you like Young's politics, that you think his songs are varied, and that nobody likes a pratfall on an internet forum, pursuing a 'fun debate' with you is pointless. You also seem to resent the employ of multisyllabic words, so you'll appreciate why I might begin to suspect you'd similarly dislike musicians with a great deal more technical ability than Young on account of their being 'showy'.

My reasons for writing this reply are two-fold: first, because of your poorly-reasoned calling into question of a tax-paying, John A McDonald-loving Canuck because he doesn't like some uppity, drugged out EXPATRIATE shmuck. Second, because of your failure to demonstrate an understanding that 'educated' people don't simply spout their opinions without providing facts or an internally consistent line of reasoning to support themselves. I assume you believe that Young will educate me with his pellucid political positions, yet I fear you find his lyrics educational only because they cater to your pre-existing personal prejudices.

If you really must debate something, explain to me why it should be required of Canadians to lend even a tincture of their national identity to a man who has occupied himself with the USA for by far the better part of his life. Sure, Young comes back to Canada occasionally to receive awards and be worshiped as a Canadian, but aren't there more important, Canadian-through-and-through icons?

Fwiw, I like Skynyrd and Neil pretty much equally, but prefer "Sweet Home Alabama."

And as far as his politics in his music. I don't recall ever saying I agreed with his poitics. Some yes, some no, but the man has enough balls to put it out there, and you have to respect him for that. And no I don't expect you or anyone to be "educated" by his lyrics, but is it not narrow minded to dislike something because it doesn't agree with your own politics. Look at all the great lyricits, and tell me how many don't throw politics into the fray once in a while. Dylan, Weill, Prine, a gazzilion more. Some are veiled heavily, but still invovle their politics. As it is always said, people write what they know best.

I also never said that you or anyone must like Neil and his music, I only question someone who is ashamed of his music. Being from Nova Scotia, I don't care much for Anne Murray's music, but I would never say I am ashamed of her. That would be truly mindless, because I have no justifiable reason. Just as you have given me no reason to be ashamed of Neil, except you don't like his music, and oh my gosh, he moved to the states fourty years ago. Are you ashamed of Hendrix, because he went to England from Seatle to make it big. Guess what else. Neil is not a American citizen. Even says he would like to return to live in Canada someday if things allow.

You consider that quoting Aristotle as providing facts for your opinion. Lets be truly honest, it is a little pretentious isn't it. I mean who would try and quote Aristotle, (unless maybe your debate is about greek philosophers) unless you want to try and impress or confuse someone with your knowledge. I must admit, I am a little amused by it. Wish I had more time to sit here and write, but then the whole thing could go on a tangent, and next thing I might be writing Pi to six million decimal places. (3.14159...)

Lets be truly honest. Your reason for writing your reply is the same as mine. You like a good debate, and like to stand up for what you believe in... Funny just the same as Neil putting politics into his songs. Well Well now.

The only reason I cite Aristotle is because he devised a syllogism most applicable to our discourse. The only reason you resent it is because you don't understand it. Rather than applying the logic to an understanding of my argument, you are 'amused' because you can't believe that someone would actually, like, understand the implications of Greek philosophy in daily life. You are amused, becase you are not just a little pretentious in your view that I have not listened to Young's work and that I would belittle the occidental canon by applying its ideas as a red-herring.

"It just sounds like you don't like his style. Yes it can be edgy, and less than picture perfect, but lets be honest, thats what he is going for, and nobody does it better."

The only reason you say that Young's sound is intentially 'edgy' is because you are in denial of the fact that he is mediocre are best. Indeed, you can pass it all off as a pro-tools ruse, but look at Van Halen's 1978 album, recorded live-in-studio. Could Young ever dream of playing like that? Never, and it's not just because he doesn't want to... he lacks the talent.

"Atleast (sic) I can enjoy listening to his views as opposed to the inane rantings of the Harpers and Bushes of the world."

This remark of yours evidences that clearly you do agree with his politics.

"And no I don't expect you or anyone to be "educated" by his lyrics, but is it not narrow minded to dislike something because it doesn't agree with your own politics."

You have misunderstood entirely my criticism of Young. I dislike his music in its own right and see him as entirely overrated. I am ashamed of him because, as a Canadian, he has moved to the States and has basically been telling Americans what they should be doing when he himself has not pursued citizenship and its concomitant right to vote. He is a sophist preacher, an interloper. I am ashamed of him for his political views, which are coindicental to his being a poor musician. I don't much care for Anne Murray's music either, but she has not behaved so crassly as to merit shame. As for Hendrix' moving to England - did he tell them how to vote? Did he meddle in domestic English politics?

As for other musicians who talk about political issues, they can be good musicians with terrible politics. Hard as it may be for you to believe, one can separate the man from his art and still come out disliking him on both counts. In stark contrast would be an artist like Roger Waters, a brilliant musician on both theoretical and technical counts, but whose politics I disagree with. You seem to love Young's 'guts' to manipulate his position as a rock star to peddle his political prejudices. What you call 'guts', I call manipulation. Just another point on which we will never agree.

To be truly honest, I replied because I found your remarks offensive and ignorant. The fact that you do not employ standard syntactic or semantic rules may explain why you don't appreciate the implications of your own writings. More likely, though, you're proud and of questionable intelligence, qualities sufficiently common to the Maritimes as to explain why your provinces need so many handouts from Alberta and Ontario (and why they needed to manipulate the feds to withhold taxes on offshore oil). Why don't I really get you going? In addition to being ashamed of Young, I am ashamed of the maritimes.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/7426/conafeda9xv.jpg

as far as "Sweet Home Alabama" goes it's one of my favorite songs of all time, barely edging the mashup of it with "Country Grammar" by Nelly ("Sweet Home Country Grammar") - just think about it, it's exactly as good as you think it is, and probably better

Apparently you are not privy to Anne's extremely promiscuous sex life back "in the day" in Springhill! If that isn't being crass, what is? I'd be quicker to say I was ashamed of Anne than I would Neil.

And now, a quick remark pertaining your boorish comment on the Maritimes. Why spend our money when we can get yours handed to us? Who has the "questionable intelligence?" Suckers.

GC, are you situated somewhere in Ontario? (Stewart, if he is... it supports my earlier statement about central Canadians) or perhaps, our discussionary friend, you are from Alberta? Makes no difference, Stewart used to live in Ontario, and I resided in Alberta for many years. Both of us came back "home" and are better for it, but the main thing is we are all Canadians here. Technically, so is Neil Young. Don't be ashamed of a fellow Canadian! Well, except maybe Harper.... but I digress. That's leading into a completely different rant.

I'm for "Southern Man" It's a lot easier to listen to than SHA.

See even a "unintelligent Maritimer" can play that jackass game of "what wonderful words can I come up with to make me sound a little more intelligent than I truly is". Fact still is that it doesn't sound like you are familiar with Mr. Youngs music. No shame in that, but still doesn't allow for a very strong argument.

Also It seems typical that someone west of the Maritimes (which of course I am assuming you are), doesn't even know there own countries geography. The offshore oil money you refered to deals with Newfoundland, and agree or disagree with the whole issue, Newfoundland is not part of the maritimes. Sorry, I guess your "intelligence" stops at Quebec, and jumps right to Europe.

Truth be known, I have travelled extensively, and I find no section of the country/world has a monopoly on intelligence, but many parts do on attitude. Maybe someday you will get to the maritimes and try and match wits with some "unintelligent" maritimer, and may be sorely shocked. But there is a good chance that they won't because, what do we have to prove that already hasn't. The fact that the upper canadian government was told for decades, that the fisheries were in danger from foreign fishing, but I guess that attitude didn't allow them to believe those "unintelligent" Newfoundlanders, and Nova Scotianers. Its hard to believe that this arrrogance still exists in the west, but from my time there, and most conversations since has sadly proven it does. Maybe this is why Neil puts his politics into his music. Because of neccesity, and the hope to improve the world. We all live in this world, so we all have a right to our voice, Just some don't have the backbone to express it, and that leaves the responsibility to those who do. Neil was waiting to see if any younger artist would "write the songs", but most young people today can talk well, when it isn't going to affect the bottom line, but when it comes right down to brass tacks, can't pull the trigger. And you ask why Neil puts his politics into his music.

Pleasent Plains said it well though, and nice artwork. Very clever. I don't know if it was intentional, but it says more with a simple picture, than both our long winded posts. Well done, thats true intelligence.

I doubt very much the Harper government will last long, and even so he will pander for your votes but upholding the current transfer payment madness. Yet, it is we non-maritimers who make this economy the envy of the world. It's no accident that Ontario and Alberta recruit the best minds in the country for work in international law, medical research and virtually any other field of human inquiry and synthesis. Neither is it mere coincidence that maritimers tend to vote for policies that give them handouts. Supposing the handouts stopped, do you think that on strength of the local population's wit and resilience, eastern Canada could really dig itself out of the have-not hole? Apparently eastern Canadians don't even think so, being that they don't want to take the chance - and continue to preponderantly vote for center-left policies.

As for your claim that Newfoundland is not part of the maritimes:

Granted, Newfoundland/Labrador did not join the confederation until 1949, and is thus not part of the pre-Charlottetown Conference defined 'maritime provinces', it is nevertheless a maritime province in modern conventional usage.

mar·i·time Audio pronunciation of "maritime" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-tm)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or adjacent to the sea.
2. Of or relating to marine shipping or navigation. See Synonyms at nautical.
3. Of or resembling a mariner.

As for blaming over-fishing on foreign fisheries, that is sheer hogwash. The federal government chose economic imperatives instead of erstwhile ill-defined scientific imperatives and you over-fished. Sure, foreign fisheries contributed somewhat, but straight out of the mouths of my old ecology professors Charlie Trick and Bob Bailey, there is absolutely no question at this point that the quotas set in Canada were too high.

As for Anne Murray's sex-life. I had not heard about this and could not find independent verification. But I think that to impugn one's character for one's choices in the bedroom is unjustifiable. One's private life ought to be one's own purview. The difference with respect to Young is that he uses his public persona as a medium by which to promulgate his personal views. Contrariwise, unless Murray advocated qua music demigod for adultery or some other sexual impropriety, I can't agree that this as a valid parallel.

MF, as far as I can tell, 'discussionary' is not an English word. Even if it is, it seems likely that it would be a noun, rather than an adjective. If you can direct me to a dictionary that will negate this, I'd be much obliged indeed. Also, your remark about Harper only redoubles my view that Young is likely catering to your prior prejudices, so you like his music more because it 'speaks to you'. Yet, if Young was singing the Conservative party platform, I doubt that you would be inclined to say 'wow, this is great music, too bad about his political views'. A fortiori, I doubt you would say - Young is one of the greatest musicians of all time, even though I don't like his views.

By the way Mr. Dowd, I don't ask why Young puts his political views into his music, I already know why: he's a self-righteous ass.

It's sad really, that this populist rocker could seriously be loved as 'elite' when Young really is loved because he is John Q Citizen.

As far as your ecology professors opinion about the fishery decline, their opinion is the true hogwash. I would put the opinion of a Fisherman ahead of any ecology professor any day. The Atlantic fisherman knew more in their little fingers about what was happening to the fish, than any ecologist. Maybe a little more education in the school of hard knocks would be in order. Nothing worse than a book wise "expert". And we know what an expert is.

As far as the Anne Murray statement by MF, I do believe he was trying to show how trivial your reasoning is for being ashamed of Mr. Young.

Again, I recall saying that I agree with some of Mr. Youngs politics, and disagree with others, but again I will say that I like all his music, politics aside. Have you not figured out yet that his art is the thing, not his politics. If I liked Paul Martins politics (which I wasn't a total fan of), I still don't think I would enjoy his music. They are not a cohesive unit.

As far as listening to Neils greatest hits, that shows there how little you actually know about the man and his music. Neil is not about hits. Never was. Actually he would probably be a little ashamed of his greatest hits album himself, and it was only released by the record company. Neil is not about the hits, he is about the art, and message. When asked if he was concened about a album not selling, he readily admits to not caring in the slightest if he sells a record. Greatest hits. that was a record for kids who just don't understand.

It's this kind of reflexive anti-intellectual pretense about more 'life experience' that doomed you people in the first place. Ecologists told you the populations were dwindling, but your fishermen just kept on fishing. Ecologists proferred valid, reliable data suggesting that numbers were down, even if a causal link could not be readily demonstrated (because experimental conditions did not permit), "and they were scoffed at for being haughty ivory-tower intellectuals with out sufficient experience in the 'school of hard knocks' as you say. It's science versus intuition and self-interest. You seem to have made your choice. Will you not at least accept an anticholinesterase inhibitor to help with your apparent dementia? After all, AchE antagonists were designed by cloistered molecular biologists, without experience in the 'real world' of dementia. Does that make their contribution less efficacious?

"Play with the definitions all you want, it doesn't change that fact."

Maintain your pomp all you want, that doesn't change the fact that you are inappropriately extrapolating a parochial usage to the hoi polloi.

"As far as the Anne Murray statement by MF, I do believe he was trying to show how trivial your reasoning is for being ashamed of Mr. Young."

Pertaining to MF's remark about Murray, I do believe my riposte regarding the critical difference between the cases has not been parried as yet. As such, I think the coherence of your thoughts and arguments are dubious.

At no point, by the way, had you indicated any disagreement with Young's views. You have cited no case in which you are at odds with him on any issue. "Some yes, some no, but the man has enough balls to put it out there, and you have to respect him for that." You offered up this lame ex poste facto remark, but never qualified it. So when you say "again" as if your remarks have been sensible, ordered, well expressed and complete, you need to reconsider and take a bit of the self-righteousness out of your disdain.

"Have you not figured out yet that his art is the thing, not his politics."

Have you not followed the flow of my argument at all? To repeat: I find his music to be picayune and the content of his character deplorable. I am ashamed of him on the latter count. I dislike his music in its own right.

"Neil is not about the hits, he is about the art, and message."

You're right in some sense, Neil always seemed to care more about convincing people to espouse his peurile views than to produce good music. As far as it being about the art, you must realize how gushy and sycophantic you sound in saying this?

"Greatest hits. that was a record for kids who just don't understand."

What are kids supposed to understand? That the baby-boomer generation was the single-most hypocritical generation in modern memory? That they preached social justice and liberalism and became the most obdurate capitalists of all time? Are we supposed to understand that guys like Young continue to make a living off of those Boomers who never outgrew their inchoate, adolescent, socialist proclivities? Are we supposed to believe that Young and his ilk were about the message, but artists of this generation are all about the profit? Or haven't you heard of the indie rock movement? What am I to learn from these emotional foamings-at-the-mouth?

Irrespective, this kid's schedule is getting rather hectic in the next few weeks, so hopefully you've enjoyed the 'debate' and can feel good about yourself knowing that you bested a stranger on the internet on strength of your sheer lack of anything better to do. Have a nice life.

The use of the big word, is a little stand-offish though. Remember in the real world to use applicable language. Overuse of language doesn't impress it actually pushes away.

Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see. Only believe all of what you know.

Again it may not seem to you to be sincere, but I did enjoy the debate.

Don't forget "opinions are like arse-holes... everyone has one, but everyone elses stinks but yours"

Cheers

Weird. I found a link to this thread here. ILM is grooowing..

"Southern Man" in a landslide, although if "Southern Man" were overplayed on classic rock radio the way "Sweet Home Alabama" is, maybe my opinion would change. Hmmm...on second thought, no, "Southern Man" is by far the better song, even in a vacuum.

given that one of these songs is a masterpiece and the other is awful, i tend to see this is a no brainer.

southern man.

Swear I had never heard of this when I chopped that Maple Leaf up there:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/shanerh/Roanoke_Valley_Rebels_Jersey_263x35.jpg

"Al [Kooper] certainly helped in coming up with some ad libs that Ronnie did throughout the song," says Mills. "And then there was Al himself, going out into the studio and doing his best impression of Neil Young."

This refers to Kooper softly singing 'Southern Man' during the second verse, following Van Zant's line, "Well, I heard Mister Young sing about her."

"Al did that intentionally," Mills recalls. "It was a moment of inspiration after Ronnie did his vocal, and I don't think Al had any preconception of that at all until the moment he said, 'Let me go out there and do something real quick.' Afterwards, I think there was some discussion whether to use it or not, and although it did end up on the finished record I know some people still aren't aware it's there."

And I'll be, there he is in the left speaker. Never in 30 years, 11 of those working at a classic rock station, had I ever noticed that.

(From this link.)

Sweet Home Alabama wins this, easy.

i'd prob say 'southern man', but really i'm not a huge fan of either. think i might like 'southern man' a bit more if its point wasn't so easy, b/c it's a good rocker and it's got a really great intensity to it

but yea neil's 'alabama' is better than either of these songs

Southern Man crushes...

scolding vs. dick-waving -- I pretty much hate both of these songs.

And I'll be, there he is in the left speaker. Never in 30 years, 11 of those working at a classic rock station, had I ever noticed that.

oh wow, i was never aware of this either. I am going to pull this out and listen again as soon as i get home.

Does anyone ever really need to hear Sweet Home Alabama again? Southern Man wins by virtue of not being so nauseatingly ubiquitous.

that too

ok I didn't read this whole thread but would love to hear young covering "sweet home alabama"

Young: Lynyrd Skynyrd almost ended up recording Powderfinger before my version came out. We sent them an early demo of it because they wanted to do one of my songs.

Interviewer Q. Surprising, that. After all, Lynyrd Skynyrd put you down by name on Sweet Home Alabama, their first hit single....

Young: Oh, they didn't really put me down! But then again, maybe they did! (laughs) But not in a way that matters. Shit, I think Sweet Home Alabama is a great song. I've actually performed it live a couple of times myself.