Taking Sides: Kevin Shields v. Tom Scholz

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Hello, Ned, long time no see :-)

While I'm not saying that My Bloody Valentine=Boston, I do think there are some interesting parallels. And I do think that "Soon" = "More than a Feeling," circa 1991.

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This isn't meant to be a joke thread, BTW. Though no-one has ever seen Messrs. Shields and Scholz in the same room at the same time, have they? :-)

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Both technically obsessive to a fault. If there's a key difference, though, it's that Scholz's Brian Wilson obsession emphasizes the cleanliness of arrangements spiked with feedback and riffs, while Shields' Brian Wilson obsession results in messiness spiked with soothing but half-heard hooks.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

And I do think that "Soon" = "More than a Feeling," circa 1991.

I thought "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was the "More Than A Feeling" 1991.

― Vic Funk, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hmmm. . . well, if one begins with the proposition (which I have considered before) that Sonic Youth = Led Zeppelin, it is possible to argue that MBV (with Shields)/Sonic Youth = Boston/Led Zeppelin. Both bands took the guitar innovations of their more arty, abrasive, and eclectic predecessor and, with the aid of the most cutting-edge production techniques, put them to the service of pop, discarding the least marketable aspects, rigidly adhering to bubblegum structure, and adding sweet doo-wop harmonies (applies a bit more in Boston's case). In both cases, a more participatory full band modus operandi was replaced by a more dictatorial model directed by a reclusive mastermind producer. Both had blank-voiced puppet lead singers who were much more palatable to pop-loving weiners than their idiosyncratic antecedents. The superhero auteur drumming of the predecessor was stripped to its most functional roles - drive here, snap here, crackle, hold back there. Essentially, the role of the rock hero was taken away from its usual repositories - the shamanistic voice, the guitar hero's extended instrumental moment, the thundering percussionist - and placed entirely in the hands of the man behind the music - the producer. Pop rather than rock. Phil Spector rather than The Who.

Boston defined the sound of mainstream rock radio for the next decade and a half. MBV defined the sound of college rock radio for the next decade. Loveless is a bit more consistently good than Boston (Kevin Shields didn't let Billinda Butcher write a song.) Loveless/Evol might = Boston/Zoso, where the epic scope and ambition of the earlier album is cut up, quantified, and neatly packaged into measured chunks. My comparison would not be "Soon" however:

"To Here Knows When"/"Expressway to Yr Skull" = "More Than a Feeling"/"Stairway to Heaven." An 8-minute crescendo becomes a verse and a chorus. A "pop song" that builds to a dissonant climax and then tumbles into an enveloping drone becomes a POP SONG enveloped in drones, climaxing at its choruses. Crazed prophetic lyrics become a song-about-a-guy-and-a-girl either overtly or by default when you can't hear the words.

And as I refuse to take sides between Led Zeppelin and Sonic Youth I refuse to take sides between Tom Scholz and Kevin Shields.

― sundar subramanian, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Alternate conclusion: Led Zeppelin and Sonic Youth were my favourite bands. Boston and MBV were my tooth-rotting desserts. I refuse to pick one over the other.

― sundar subramanian, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Now that's an analysis. Although the irony of 'blank-voiced puppet lead singers' regarding MBV is considerable given Shields was the lead singer too. ;-)

Heard the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" = "More Than a Feeling" link before -- I've also read comparisons between "Smells Like..." and the Police and, thanks to Chuck Eddy, natch, "Don't Look Back" and REM.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Smashing Pumpkins < Boston + MBV. Discuss

Shields as singer = puppet to Shields as producer. Irony was considered and intended.

― sundar subramanian, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No need to discuss that equation, I think Billy C. has actually *said* it more than once! Though Bauhaus is the other key missing factor.

I like the idea of Shields berating himself in studio. "I pull your strings, vocal cords! YOU ARE MINE!"

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Been thinking quite a lot about MBV lately (listening to "Isn't Anything" and thinking it's rather better than most estimations of it I've read: I love "Loveless" as much as the next guy, but the jerky rhythms and more available vocals on "Isn't Anything" have a real idiosyncratic appeal to them) and just wanted to say that the Boston comparison is right on, even thought I'm not much on Boston. There's the auteur issue: Scholz taking forever to follow up on an album, even to/beyond the point of his own commercial viability: this obsession with craft as its own justification...nice comparison, yes.

― John Darnielle, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ce qui est important: When you hear Robert Plant/Thurston Moore/Kim Gordon you hear the singer: his or her attitude and personality articulated through very individualized quirks and mannerisms. When you hear Brad Delp/Kevin Shields/Billinda Butcher you hear the song: the melody they have been given (or has given himself in Shields' case) to sing; the voice is less idiosyncratic and is a conduit for the notes. Calling Shields a puppet to himself might have been stretching it a bit, I'll concede.

― sundar subramanian, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

There are tons of interesting parallels between Tom Scholz the artist and Kevin Shields the artist, and perhaps maybe Tom Scholz the engineer and Kevin Shields the engineer (Did Kevin Shields ever make any of his own equipment?). Which may be of some interest to pop historians and engineers (I feel very little like either at the moment, though these things change). As a music listener though: I like singing along to Boston in the car, but I still haven't found a use for My Bloody Valentine. Boston may have layed it on a little thick with the mormon tabernacle harmonies, but "Soon" is just the gayest sounding song I've ever heard.

― Kris, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Did Kevin Shields ever make any of his own equipment?

Not to my knowledge. He prefers to abuse what's already there.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Can't say I've ever heard "Soon" referred to as "gay" before. Somewhat curious idea.

― electric sound of jim, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kevin Shields never wore supertight satin athletic shorts onstage, so I'll go with him.

― Arthur, Sunday, 6 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

but I still haven't found a use for My Bloody Valentine

Better keep looking, then! ;-)

Also, if "Soon" is "gay," then sign me up straightaway. I'm not sure what you mean by that, either. I think MBV make some of the most feminine-without-being-feminist-or-cutesy music I've ever encountered.

― Clarke B., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'Gay' as in 'wussy weak shit,' as in to call your snot-nosed loser fellow thirteen-year-old middle school-attending fuck-up friend a 'gaylord' for suggesting something particularly unsuitable, I think Kris means. Yes, it is most unPC, but I'll let Kris defend himself as he chooses. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The Brad Delp look was very popular with the gays of the late Seventies. Then they went all butch and shit.

― Arthur, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The Brad Delp look was very popular with the gays of the late Seventies.

You learn something new every day on ILX, you do ;-p

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Speaking of Brad Delp ...

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

hey remember when i said hiphop was popular because it was the only dance music that didn't sound gay and ned said he wanted to punch me in the face?

― ethan, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

My favorite bit:

"Besides being a great guy, Brad and other members of Boston are opposed to violence, and cruelty of any kind. Brad is known to contribute to helping stop child abuse, and help fund animal rights programs. He's a vegetarian, and hopes you are too."

Gay looks, vegetarian, sings in a weird register...IS BRAD DELP THE AMERICAN MORRISSEY?

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It was all in the delivery, young man. That's why Kris can take care of himself. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I prefer the Steve Prefontaine look, myself. (BTW Ethan, I think everyone wants to punch you in the face. I thought your hypothesis was quite brilliant).

― Kris, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Going back a few points here:

> I thought "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was the "More Than A Feeling" 1991.

Indeed, there is a great live bootleg about of Nirvana playing the intro to smells like teen spirit, before suddenly launcing into the "More Than A Feeling" chorus, but to the dynamics of the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" chorus!

A brilliant self parody

― chewshabadoo, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I have no idea why I typed that in French, BTW.

I thought Ethan's delivery was great.

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

four years pass...

TS: Tom Scholz v. Greg Ginn:
- they're both tall
- they're both electronic geniuses/geeks
- they're both control freaks who not-so-secretly run the show, even if their lead singers hog all the attention onstage
- both of their bands hung on way, way past the glory years
- they've both weathered shifting lineups (though only Ginn has gone through more than 1 lead singer)
- both of their lead singers performed in Beatles tribute bands and do chat shows on IFC (wait, scratch that)

Main difference: SST was staunchly independent from the beginning, and their one major-label experience was a disaster. Meanwhile, Boston bragged about getting signed to a major after paying fictitious dues as "just another band out of Boston."

― mike a (mike a), Monday, 12 June 2006 13:30 (eighteen years ago) link

nine months pass...

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 01:07 (seventeen years ago) link

drat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHV3DSua3DU

vs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASF30_WXL9E

RIP, brad ;_;

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 01:07 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHV3DSua3DU (more than a feeling)

vs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASF30_WXL9E (soon)

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 01:08 (seventeen years ago) link

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