Taking Sides: Beach Boys vs. Velvet Underground

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Or: painfully protracted lobotomy v. electroshock. Manson v. Warhol as charismatic cult guy. Drowning vs. being hit by cyclists. Plus, any and all music/cultural things you might care to bring up

― dave q, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

For purposes of question (and evening up chronological spread) consider VU solo careers as well as band output, as well as merits of early novelties ("The Ostrich" v. "Surfin'"). Or if you want to get really deep and ugly, BW's early damage v. Nico's early damage

― dave q, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ramones vs. the Strokes the answer's pretty easy. Seriously though, I much prefer VU and don't understand what's so great about the Beach Boys at all.

― Kris, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

VU wins, hands down. All The Beach Boys have to show for is 'Pet Sounds', really. Don't come and tell me you actually enjoy listening to 'Surfing U.S.A'.

― Alacran, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the beach boys, easily. velvets done some good stuff, but beach boys pretty hard to top, from Wendy through to Holland especially. i'll have to have a think to provide a longer answer, but there are some interesting points i think will be raised in this thread.

― gareth, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But who on earth enjoys listening to 'Heroin'?

― Sam, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I enjoy listening to both Surfin' USA and Heroin. I don't see that this is so odd. I could pick much better early Beach Boys records, but I refuse to believe that anyone who says Pet Sounds is the only worthwhile thing they did has actually heard very much else at all. Even if you only like that style, you must surely also enjoy the first side of 'Today'. And to dismiss later songs like 'Good Vibrations', 'Cabinessence' and 'Surf's Up' is just bonkers too. Where's Fred?

I like the VU and the Beach Boys about the same. I don't think that's a bizarre mismatch. Look at John Cale's BB infatuation.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This sounds like the taking sides question which should separate the pop fraction from the rockists. From my pov it is obviously VU who take the cake. Heroine is about the only song of theirs I find boring and tiresome. But the Beach Boys did not add anything to my personal music universe. What's so great about "Pet Sounds" anyways? "God Only Knows" is not a bad song (it's not so great either) but it is the only one of that album that sticks out. Hugely overrated. Whereas all VU albums are classics though "White Light/White Heat" probably less so. Sister Ray is fun one time but not a song I put on a lot these days. Though it is featured in three ultralong improvisational versions on the "Quine Tapes".

― alex in mainhattan, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This is all very odd. Do people really find Heroin unlistenable? It's possibly my favourite VU track of all.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The images/myths of both of them have got a bit shopworn - the music of both is fresher to listen to but it's still damned difficult to find much to say about it. I never listen to the Velvets, I occasionally listen to the Beach Boys so I suppose that's your answer - I think there's more mystique in Smile than in anything by the Velvet Underground but Smile has a bit of an unfair advantage on that front. Bring the solo careers into it and I listen to John Cale's records more than anything Brian Wilson did, but Lou Reed is mostly even less precious to me than Mike Love. I'll have a think and if I can come up with anything more interesting to say I'll say it later.

― Tom, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

'Pet Sounds' IS overrated, but not as much as 'Friends' and 'Love You' are underrated

― dave q, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

but liking the beach boys = uber-rockist

proof:
i. faust first LP sleeve inscription
c.cutler at recommended letting them alone of all "pop" thru into his dotty zappoid avant-pantheon

― mark s, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark touches on the nub of the rockist/poppist ambiguity, fluidity and vector of totality. Is it about the band/music itself or the way they are received? Are ABBA close to rock(ist) in that case? I think we already established that Chic are. Or 'were' if you take the non-sujectivist view.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

non-sujectivist = not only mistyped but ass. I wish I were better at ontological blether.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

There's always "Cycle Annie" for those who can't make up their minds.

― fritz, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nick, how do you mean 'were', as opposed to 'are' in regard to chic. i can understand how chic could have become rockist over time, and to an extent, Abba (although i do not believe it for the latter).

things certainly become rockist over time (just a process of canonisation no?), and the beach boys are undoubtedly rockist, but of course were not *at the time*

another question. when did the beach boys become rockist? did American Graffiti start off this process, or have their huge leftfield critical ascendancy of the 90s have more of a role?

― gareth, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, I thought it was universally agreed that "Heroin" is brilliant. Next you're going to tell me you don't like "Stairway to Heaven."

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just started a new thread on Heroin. Classic or Dud? Btw I like "Stairway to Heaven".

― alex in mainhattan, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Gareth - you clearly see rockism as something that is bestowed through having music buffs venerate a band. I was suggesting that some people (like alex) don't see it that way and understand the term to refer to something intrinsic to the music (Chic and the Beach Boys don't RAWK so they can't be rockist). You could argue still that there's something about the way Chic went about things (eg. emphasis on albums) that was always rockist. Hence the were/are option. Or something. I have become very tedious. How many angels can dance on a pinhead, again?

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

or have their huge leftfield critical ascendancy of the 90s have more of a role?

I don't think it was totally leftfield, because they started to get a lot more popular when the Capitol two-fers and the Brother records were originally issued on CD in the early 90s.

However, could someone tell me what "rockist" means?

― dleone, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Brian Wilson, oh if he was my father...the worlds i could have ruled.

― Gage-o, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, but it was the leftfielders (as were) buying 'em. I remember a big 10/10 NME review of Pet Sounds around 1989 that was my first "Oh - this band get taken seriously" moment. I suppose that was the CD issue.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

First of all, I don't think the VU ever wrote a song like 'Kokomo'.

Come to think of it, that's all that needs be said.

― Dave225, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Re Chic being 'rockist' - 'Real People' starts off with a three- minute gtr solo

― dave q, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

VU > Mike Love/Terry Melcher

― dleone, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kokomo isnt the beach boys. it's the evil mike love impersonating the beach boys. know yr history!

― Gage-o, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

And second of all, VU never had anyone in the group like Mike Love.

― Dave225, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I will not have Mike Love being written out of the Beach Boys, you Stalinist scum.

― N., Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dave225 is obviously forgetting DOUG YULE.

― David Raposa, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

VU, all the way i would say. hearing the velvets was like an epiphinal moment for me, and they have remained one of my favourite bands despite all the nauseating scenesters around here who LURVE the velvets "cos they're SOOO debauch".

personally i think "pet sounds" is kinda overrated.

― di, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Neither. You can get the best (sic) of both worlds by listening to the JAMC.

― Vic Funk, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Doug Yule != Mike Love.

Poor Doug is treated rather unfairly at times IMO.

― electric sound of jim, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

When I first read this question I thought it was a bit annoying; another case of trying to show that art sucks because pop is better and therefore I'm worthwhile even though I'm a nerd not an artist ... sorry, I went way too far there! (It's all a joke on me anyway.) But when I read Tom saying, "I listen to the Beach Boys sometimes and not the VU" I realised the same thing applied - my personal experience would be that the VU is in some sense more GIMMICKY than the Beach Boys, because the VU's music sounds intolerably exciting at first, but becomes irritatingly familiar quite quickly. My flatmate listened to Pet Sounds every morning when she woke up for a year, and she still often does. Would anybody do that with the Velvet Underground? Nevertheless, I would say that this means more that the two can't be compared than that one is superior to the other. The VU have different strengths.

― maryann, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

favorite VU joke -- a friend referring to the Lou Reed-less VU album Squeeze as "the Yule log."

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Very hard question for me. I'll say Beach Boys over VU, but White Light/White Heat over Pet sounds.

― Keiko, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Early Beach Boys, from "Surfin' USA" to "Barbara Ann" = classic. They were undoubtedly the least cool band of all time (Be True To Your School? Those striped shirts? Songs about SURFING?), which is what makes them so timelessly great. I could never get into most of the post-Smile stuff - maybe it's the beards.

As for the Velvets, they're overpraised but still good. Nowhere near as revolutionary or original as they're cracked up to be, but classic anyway. I'd probably rather listen to them than the Beach Boys now, though, since I've heard Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations/Smile so many times I hardly ever feel like listening to them.

― Justyn Dillingham, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Wouldn't it be easier to listen to early Jesus and Mary Chain instead and not have to choose?

I have, thanks to some used CD finds, actually been getting into the late sixties/early seventies Beach Boys stuff as of late. It is at times very strange indeed, at other points weirdly burnt out and comforting. Like the Eagles but not as immediately punchable (Mike Love's get-ups, though, are worth the mockery). It's like they were young up through Smile and then instantly became old.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 7 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I find it quite odd that Vic and Ned both make the same point about the Jesus and Mary Chain. I don't really see how they sound like either band, but especially not the Beach Boys. Do other people hear this, or is it based on something the Reid brothers once said? I know they covered Surfin' USA, but that's not really enough, is it?

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i don't think they sound like either band either. wasn't the aesthetic supposed to be shirelles+fuzz? i'm not entirely sure i agree with that idea either

― gareth, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Some people are saying, well, the VU really changed my music tastes and opened things up for me etc. And I find that difficult to empathise with because I don't think I've ever really liked the VU except in an ought-to-like-them sense (which was how I originally liked Pet Sounds until my girlfriend got into it and I suddenly got the point of it).

I remember when I first heard the VU pretty well. And what I thought was "OK, this is noisy and harsh. But I know what noise and harshness is like - it's what most unfamiliar music is, or music you don't understand is, at least at first. And here that's the point - theyre trying to make music that doesn't resolve into the familiar. But the thing is that the noisiness and harshness here feels *more* familiar because it's what everything sounds like at first. In other words the VU can't ever be surprising."

Of course I didnt articulately think anything of the sort, because I was 15, but that's how I'd explain now the disappointment and lack of surprise I felt hearing the VU, the sense that I'd heard it all before when in fact I'd heard nothing like it before.

I suspect the VU worked brilliantly as art, though.

― Tom, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

JAMC - very surf-inspired. I never analyzed who they sounded like. Can't think of a good BeachBoys comparison right now though - Maybe they're more like the Ventures or Dick Dale...?

― Dave225, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was quite surprised by the Velvet Underground, because I bought their most praised LP and found it was mainly full of pretty singing, glockenspiels and good tunes. There were only a couple of tracks towards the end that were hard to listen to.

Yeah, I can see that the JAMC are surf guitar influenced, but that's really got little to do with the Beach Boys sound at all, has it?

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tom's point about the familiarity of harshness of VU is interesting to me because I had a related but different response - in the mid80's, same age as you, I had read about VU as the godfathers of punk and that they were unlistenable and arty and essential and all that. Imagined them to sound like earthquakes or hurricanes. Got the Banana record, braced myself for air raid sirens and jackhammers and out the speakers came the treacle of "Sunday Morning". I got something of what I had been expecting later in the record esp. at the end with "Black Angel's Death Song/European Son", but I was more shocked and awed by the sweeter, folkier songs ("I'll be Your Mirror", "There She Goes Again") alongside the more abrasive end of things.

― fritz, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's what I just said, fritz! At least I thought it was.

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was typing my overlong answer as you snuck in lightning quick to beat me to the punch, dastardly dastoor.

― fritz, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm mighty quick on the draw.

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(I should have mentioned that said first VU listen was to white light white heat not the other records)

― Tom, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

when v.small my sistah wd refer to it as a GLOCKENSQUEAL, thus pre-empting both the first two vu lps

― mark s, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Psychocandy = VU guitars + BB harmonies.

I was struck by how primitive and minimal the VU weren't. I think they were the first band I ever appreciated for "songwriting."

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Beach Boys harmonies? On Psychocandy?

― Tim, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm getting confused by this. Perhaps there was a North American edition of Psychocandy with added close harmonies and high school fun lyrics. Or perhaps there was a terrible mistake at the pressing plant, undiscovered to this day.

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I thought this fact was well known.

― Sean, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's well known that it's been claimed that psychocandy has VU guitars and BBs harmonies - does that make it a "fact" though? I mean I've listened to the Beach Boys quite a bit and I may not know much about harmonies but I think the J&MC comparison doesn't hold much water. The idea that the JAMC had BeachBoysHarmonies is very nice, not least to the band themselves, which might be why it's endured so much.

― Tom, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

does that make it a "fact" though?

No, it makes it a factoid.

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was only kidding, btw.

― Sean, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I thought Sean was talking about the pressing plant mix up.

― N., Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Now that I think about it, you're right, that makes no sense at all. After all the JAMC had only two singers and no one doing the high part. They were probably mostly just singing in unison now that I think about it. The "VU guitars" part might be a bit more tenable but even that's pushing it now that I think about it.

― sundar subramanian, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I thought that what Tom wrote above about VUs familiarity was clever and probably true, but I would like to add to what other people have been trying to say; the 'Cale vs Reed', drone vs folk/pop song thing is there, so VU isn't exactly just about harshness, is it? Many fans of the VU seem to be saying that they love songs that Lou Reed did before he met Cale (ie, 'Do the Ostrich' and so on ), and it could easily be argued that the great thing about the VU is Lou Reed's weird sense of - humour? Or cynicism or whatever, and maybe that Cale's idea of the drone was the icing - under the cake. Lou Reed is what elevates the VU above other drone bands, surely, just as Iggy Pop is with the Stooges, and the strange persona of Sky Saxon is with the Seeds. Maybe pop's only a background noise to say something clever over ... or something that'll impress the girls, anyway ... so make it a harsh drone if you want to be HONEST. Become even better, leave the words out altogether.

― maryann, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Regarding the whole JAMC conundrum -- I gather everyone's forgetting that they not only did a cover of "Surfin' USA" but a spot-on BB parody called "Kill Surf City," and these both in the 'early years' if you will. But I forgive you your sins of omission. ;-)

Certainly I wouldn't say that early JAMC strictly and *solely* is BB plus VU. But it's an equation that's actually pretty damn easy to draw up based on the end results. Certainly it was the widespread critical crutch used at the time, which has perhaps lingered...

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 8 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I heard someone remark that the feedback in JAMC songs sounded a lot like the constant screams from the audience at Beatles concerts. I don't know if the BB got the same kind of audience reaction (kind of doubt it), but maybe that's another connection.

― nickn, Wednesday, 9 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just listened to White Light/White Heat maybe an hour ago. I'd forgotten how good it was. "Sister Ray" seemed beautiful, almost meditative.

― sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 9 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

J&MC = depeche mode w.guitars and noise surely?

― mark s, Wednesday, 9 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

J&MC = depeche mode w.guitars and noise surely

Yes! this is very true

― gareth, Thursday, 10 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I hadn't forgotten 'Kill Surf City' but I still think Ned's talking out of his bottom.

― N., Thursday, 10 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The first VU thing I'd ever heard was "White Light/White Heat," on the local college radio when I was 15. Thought it was a neat, almost pop-sounding tune (with that piano in the background driving the song as much, if not more than the guitar) until that feedbacky- vamp at the end but even that wasn't all that radical by 1985 standards. At that point, I certainly knew who Lou Reed was -- 1985 was one of his periodic friendly periods (fellow Yanks will attest that he was hawking Honda motorbikes at that point, though I don't remember if he had the mullet at that point or not) -- and had vaguely heard of the VU at that point. But hadn't been overburdened by the "VU mystique -- godfathers of punk/sing songs about kinky sex and drugs/Lester Bangs favorite band of all time," so I thought it was nice. Frankly, Psychocandy, Taking Tiger Mountain (by Strategy), Master of Puppets, We're Only In It for the Money (tho' Zappa and the Mothers were kinda the anti-VU, but I digress), Bowie's "WL/WH" cover, and even "How Soon Is Now?" were more epochal at that point of my life. All of which softened me up by the first time I heard VU and Nico and the entirety of White Light/White Heat, which was still an ear- opener and great and all that, but the initial impression had been made by the first hearing of "White Light/White Heat." Long way of saying -- it's best to approach the VU with no expectations, though I don't know if that's really possible these days.

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Saturday, 12 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh yeah, re the JAMC = VU + BB equation: obviously I hear it now. When I first heard them, though, they sounded more like a noisier, fuzzier, less-overtly-humorous-but-filthier Ramones (filthiness = 15- year old Tad's dirty mind only being able to understand figments of the lyrics and using his imagination). But that was more because I hadn't really heard any VU at that point and had only heard the usual "fun-fun-fun-in-the-California-sun" Beach Boys (and not Pet Sounds-and-after).

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Saturday, 12 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Re this JAMC malarkey - just because somebody walks up to you and tells you they're a cow, doesn't mean they are. Doesn't even mean that THEY think they are, which is irrelevant in any case. Do they moo? No? Well then, no burgers.

― dave q, Saturday, 12 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

only heard the usual "fun-fun-fun-in-the-California-sun" Beach Boys (and not Pet Sounds-and-after).

What? Now I'm even more baffled. Surely, if there's any similarity at all it is to the early BB records, not post-65 stuff? I mean I was thinking about it and I could just about see how something like the tune of 'Never Understand' could be a rollicking early Beach Boys style number if recorded very differently. But where the similarity is to Brian Wilson's symphonic, psychedelic or AOR stuff I have no idea whatsover. I'm with Dave Q and his cow analogy.

― N., Monday, 14 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

twelve years pass...

Why choose when you can have both!

Lou Reed covering "Little Deuce Coupe" while working for Pickwick in 1965:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZBao2EbNq8

― Lee626, Monday, 5 January 2015 17:31 (eleven years ago)

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