"The Wu-Tang Manual" by RZA

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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but a book was released recently regarding the Wu-Tang Clan and it's great. With quotes like "The vibe in 36 Chambers was definitely a lot of weed," and chapter's titled "The Spirituality of Producing" how could this go unnoticed?

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Thursday, 10 February 2005 06:43 (twenty years ago)

I mentioned the greatness of the lyric annotations on the rap albums with lyrics booklets thread.

Shmool McShmool (shmuel), Thursday, 10 February 2005 06:46 (twenty years ago)

I read a bunch of it stoned the other day, it was great.

greg ginn thought neubauten was bullshit, why don't you? (smile), Thursday, 10 February 2005 06:59 (twenty years ago)

"The Mazda MPV was the hottet minivan back then."
-- Regarding Raekwon's lyric in "C.R.E.A.M."

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Thursday, 10 February 2005 07:02 (twenty years ago)

sounds great, will check it out next trip to book-store

Nic de Teardrop (Nicholas), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

http://www.sixshot.com/articles/4867/

hmmm (hmmm), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

sounds great, just wish they had picked better tracks for the lyric annotations.

Book I provides basic information, backstory, and a complete list of alter egos for each of the nine core members of Wu-Tang Clan:
+ RZA
+ GZA
+ ODB
+ Method Man
+ Ghostface Killah
+ Raekwon
+ U-God
+ Inspectah Deck
+ Masta Killa

Book II breaks down nine key themes of the Wu-Tang universe:
+ Spirituality: the spiritual journey through the Bible to Greek Mythology to Five Percent Nation to Ch’an Buddhism to a holistic spirituality.
+ Martial Arts: from a fascination with kung fu movies up through a serious study of martial arts Eastern spirituality.
+ Capitalism: from the now-famous original record deals that allowed the Clan to record together and as solo artists through the Clan’s later diversification, including Wu-Tang Records, Wu-Wear, the Shaolin Style Playstation, and more.
+ Comics: the influence of comic book heroes on hip-hop and Wu-Tang, including specific discussions of the bestselling Nine Rings of Wu-Tang comic books and Bobby Digital.
+ Chess: the importance of chess to Wu-Tang both as a game and as a multi-sided metaphor.
+ Organized Crime: Wu-Tang’s personal, cinematic, and structural affinities with the Mafia.
+ Cinema: includes both kung-fu and mafia movies, but also the cinematic sound of Wu-Tang music, plus sections on key filmmakers John Woo, Jarmusch, and Tarantino.
+ Chemistry: brief history, anecdotes, and information about Wu-Tang Clan’s experimentation, and how it has influenced their music.
+ Slang: a dictionary-like compendium of Wu-slang.

Book III provides the lyrics and densely annotated explanations of nine Wu-Tang songs:
+ “Protect Ya Neck”
+ “Bring Da Ruckus”
+ “C.R.E.A.M.”
+ “Triumph”
+ “Hellz Wind Staff”
+ “Impossible”
+ “Protect Ya Neck (The Jump Off)”
+ “Uzi (Pinky Ring)”
+ “Rules”

And in Book IV, RZA discusses the art and craft of hip-hop as it relates to Wu-Tang:
+ Wu-Tang Samples: RZA’s unique, groundbreaking approach to sampling
+ Technology: history of key technological components RZA and the Clan had to master to make their music what they wanted it to be.
+ The Spirituality of Producing: what goes into producing Wu-Tang’s music and what it has meant to the RZA.
+ Voices as Instruments: how the nine members of Wu-Tang Clan function like a symphony, with each member playing an instrumental role
+ The Art of Rhyme: a discussion of Wu-Tang lyric-writing, with key contributions from GZA and U-God.
+ Live Performances: a brief history of the importance and the sensibility of Wu-Tang performances, up through their recent show in Los Angeles.
+ The Way of the Abbot: RZA on his role at the center of the Wu-Tang Clan
+ Wuman Resources: the career management behind the Wu-Tang Clan and the solo careers of the individual members
+ The Saga Continues: The future of Wu-Tang...


eman (eman), Thursday, 10 February 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

Ohhhh sheeet, I'm gonna have to buy this. I notice that this a "Volume One", but it seems to include all the stuff eman has posted above.

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Thursday, 10 February 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

just ordered it off amazon.
"structural affinities with the mafia"
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Snappy (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

"Wuman Resources"

Heh.

Austin (Austin), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

y'know, i was really hoping that the wu-tang dynasty would take off-- Wu movies, Wu-electronics, Wu-musical instruments, Wu-financial, etc... all that shit that RZA used to talk about back in the day. I guess that won't happen anymore.

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:18 (twenty years ago)

cocaine's a helluva drug

Snappy (sexyDancer), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

+ Chemistry: brief history, anecdotes, and information about Wu-Tang Clan’s experimentation, and how it has influenced their music.

57 7th (calstars), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:29 (twenty years ago)

I would get this just for the production/tech part of it.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 10 February 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

cocaine's a helluva drug

are you saying RZA was a cokehead?

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Friday, 11 February 2005 00:30 (twenty years ago)

Is this as amazing as it sounds? Because right now this is sounding to me like one of the greatest music books ever. Books I, II, III and IV are all within the one book right?

walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 11 February 2005 01:13 (twenty years ago)

i just bought it. it's awesome.

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Friday, 11 February 2005 04:10 (twenty years ago)

hello?? someone please convince me that this isn't just going to be a bunch of 4th grade bookfair level stuff that we could figure out ourselves!! do i really need the rza's help to understand the wu's affinity with martial arts?? (ok i'll admit the quotables are probably funny for about 20 minutes)

EXCEPT if this book includes a reprint of the interview that the CHRONIC zine did with each member of wu-tang when they were filming the 1st video for "wu tang forever" (i forget which track it was) then i'll buy the book.

has anybody ever seen those interviews?? if you weren't in the bay area in 96-97 you might have missed it. oh god, those were the shit.

vahid (vahid), Friday, 11 February 2005 04:36 (twenty years ago)

I've never seen them but would obviously be interested in them. And no it does not include them, and to some extent I can see your reservation. Perhaps it is somewhat topical, but nevertheless, may I just say, Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothing to fuck with.

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Friday, 11 February 2005 05:44 (twenty years ago)

re: "cocaine's a hell of a drug"

"I didn't know it at the time. but cocaine influenced a lot of the best rapping on 36 Chambers. Maybe you can hear it?" -- the RZA

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Friday, 11 February 2005 05:45 (twenty years ago)

do i really need the rza's help to understand the wu's affinity with martial arts??

no you really don't but it might be very interesting what he has to say on their other inspirations, his musical knowledge is surprising. the man plays 6 different instruments.

Rizz (Rizz), Friday, 11 February 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

also his comments on how the logic and strategy of chess influenced the makeup of the Clan is extremely interesting

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:01 (twenty years ago)

This sounds fun. The idea that it's meant to provide earth-shattering revelations about the Wu-Tang Clan is silly. It's just a random trivia book and it sounds like a very amusing one to me.

(Also if anyone can find or scan those Chronic interviews oh boy that would make me so happy.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)

http://chronicmagazine.com/public.php?level=1&page_id=55

eman (eman), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

That's just one interview and it's not from 96-97 :(

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

i read one excerpt about the gza duping some kids into thinking he was some sort of muslim messiah and they all ate it up. not sure if that was actually true (in which case i fear for the impressionable kids) or if the rza or someone was just making it up (as they seem to do with the wu-mythos). either way, i must buy this!

sunil (sunil), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

I browsed this at the bookstore the other day. It really is special, as it is as completely idiosyncratic and honest as you might hope it would be. RZA came off as really earnest and serious about all the elements of the wu-tang world that he presents, and the book as a whole feels pretty amazingly un-interfered with. Sorta like if RZA made a really ambitious zine project about wu-tang, and then it was handed over to a publisher to get it all laid out nicely in Quark and Photoshop but without much of a meddling content editor.

arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)

exactly what arch Ibog said. This book does seem really special. I already can't wait for the other volumes.

By the way, did anyone notice this snippet of the Chronic interview posted above?

Chronicmagazine.com: “If you had to do it all over, would you change anything in your career?�

RZA: “If I had to do it over, I would do [it] twice as nice. I have no legitimate regrets, but I did make a few errors on the path. Positive education always corrects errors. I know much better now and I will do it over again from a different chamber.�

Does RZA speak in acrostics in normal conversation too?

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

the best rza interview i've read so far was in the onion a.v. club.

eman (eman), Friday, 11 February 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

Does RZA speak in acrostics in normal conversation too?

Isn't that part of the whole 5%er thing?

walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 11 February 2005 18:40 (twenty years ago)

is it? i was never under the impression that acrostics were related to that.

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Friday, 11 February 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

arch Ibog OTM - I got this the other day and was just super-happy that such a strange artifact managed to make its way through the world of coffee table publishing untarnished. a lot of the slang/numerology stuff is *really* interesting - great read.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 22 February 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

hilarious drop quotes throughout as well (Kasparov! Confucious! uh, Comic Book Guy!) I predict its gonna be a Wu-Week for me....

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

Shit, I ordered this right after this thread was started and it arrived the other day -- totally destroyed by the rain! So I'm waiting for a new copy.

But I thought I should reply to the comment above about acrostics which I somehow missed. AFAIK, there is some connection between 5 percenters (and other NOI groups) and the use of acrostics and numerology. For example: I Self Lord Am Master. It's the Science of Supreme Mathematics and Alphabets.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 02:38 (twenty years ago)

what?

Rizz (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

"Actually, there may have not been another artist yet who displayed the muti-talent art like Rza. Check how many chambers I introduced to hip-hop.”

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 16:55 (twenty years ago)

Oh man. I'm going to need to read this now. For some reason I was assuming that it was just some cheesy thing. No idea why - RZA doesn't fuck around too much.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

it is really entertaining - it's not *super* dense or analytical or anything, but a lot of the anecdotes and info are really revealing (RZA's chapter about his gear and his sampling/production techniques is a goldmine).

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

re: Wu-Tang Clan and Acrostics

Examples: "The number seven symbolizes Allah because it is the Mathematical terminology for the creator of the universe (and the seventh letter of the [The Supreme Alphabet], G, stands for God"

"8 = Build. Eight is buld because God builds everything. Even the word God itself--G-O-D--you take those letters and add it up, you get eight. 7-15-4. And to build means to add on to life. And when you build positively, you take away from negativity."

(Did anyone ever read "Sideways Arithmetic From Wayside School" by Louis Sachar in elementary school?)

re: skeptics
Remember, the book is subtitled "A Written Introduction to the Philosophy and Saga of the Wu-Tang Clan" Certainly it is litered with arguably menial information regarding references or group infighting, but the rest of the book is just so kick-ass that you can't dimiss it completely. There is a chapter on chess for chrissakes. And as arch Ibog said (ie. OTM!), it's a very well written, very honest and frank book that could have been just another tour diary of Method Man on the set of deoderant commercials. Also it underscores the aspects of the Wu-Tang that are dissimilar from most hip-hop groups, in that they set out with a very clear vision for not only maintaing the group direction, but each individual member as well, financially and musically (readers at home see "The Five-Year Plan" page 75).

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

yeah, the "business plan" angle is very interesting - setting out to control 1/3 of the hip hop industry = wtf!? just insane.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

nickie twisp! holy shit long time no see man.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I just read this cover to cover the other day, and I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I think this book is destined to be a classic in the genre of music literature.

It demonstrates once and for all how RZA and the Wu are so much deeper and more profound than 99% of their contemporaries, particularly the bling-bling guys. It's really mindblowing at times.

his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

god, now i really cant resist anymore. *off to amazon*

Rizz (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

yeah I agree that it really clearly shows just how there's so much MORE to them than the average hip-hop act. There are very very few other rappers who even come close to this level of depth, of, dare I say it, "textual density". Consider the other commercial giants of their time - Jay-Z, Biggie, Tupac - the idea of anyone writing a book like this about any of them is patently ridiculous.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Books I, II, III and IV are all within the one book right?

yeah. though it appears even the publisher/distributor was confused about that, as there's a "book one" sticker on the cover of mine.

i'm reading it from front to back, am only about 1/3 third so I haven't even gotten to the stuff I think I'd be more interested in, but it's already a great read. Actually, the stuff I thought I'd just skip over (mathematics, kung fu flicks) is fairly interesting, too.

()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 06:37 (twenty years ago)

FFS shakey just because some rap doesn't have chess metaphors and obscure kung fu refs doesn't mean it's not deep

Shmool McShmool (shmuel), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 07:27 (twenty years ago)

kinda does

()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 07:28 (twenty years ago)

and you couldn't write a book quite like this one about biggie, jay, or pac, but you could write a pretty fucking interesting book about any of their lyrics.

Shmool McShmool (shmuel), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 07:29 (twenty years ago)

I think someone could write a fucking dissertation on Jay-Z (and Jay-Z could write a DISSertation on just about anyone).

Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 1 March 2005 07:30 (twenty years ago)

haha did you know that tony starks/ironman thing is actually a reference to a obscure series of comic books?? eat that, hova

natty droid, Tuesday, 1 March 2005 07:45 (twenty years ago)

I'm not making any claims one way or another as to him personally, there's just something about this:

I personally would find cruising the neighborhoods that Jay Z raps about far more enlightening...

that makes me weirdly uncomfortable. Maybe it's just the word "cruising."

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 5 March 2005 00:43 (twenty years ago)

it gives me visions of white suburban kids rolling into the pjs to interact with their residents solely to buy drugs.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 5 March 2005 00:44 (twenty years ago)

Oops- thought I had added something about Bed-Stuy, but hadn't, so maybe that last post made no sense...

Solana The Evil, Saturday, 5 March 2005 00:50 (twenty years ago)

"Cruising" intended via Jay Z lyrics taking you on a journey, not actual cruising.

I've actually been to housing projects in Brooklyn, to play basketball, but I took the subway and walked, and didn't try to buy any drugs.

Um, but what about this whole business about Wu lyrics being multi-layered?

I mean, did anyone here really read the RZA's book and see the references and feel MORE enlightened than the way they felt the first time they heard Enter the 36 Chambers?

Among other reasons, the Wu impresses because they incorporat(ed) a whole variety of distinct voices and styles into their sound and brought a cinematic element to their beats that was previously unheard in hip-hop (at least not in their distinct fashion).

The relevence of the whole 5% hocus pocus seems pointless by comparison, simply because 5% is hocus pocus. It lacks deeper meaning because it's a sham.

I doubt most people here would stop and have a two hour discussion with a homeless man who stopped them on the street and started rattling off 5% ideology, so reading RZA's take and taking it as enlightening seems silly to me...

Solana The Evil, Saturday, 5 March 2005 01:12 (twenty years ago)

I doubt most people here would stop and have a two hour discussion with a homeless man who stopped them on the street and started rattling off 5% ideology, so reading RZA's take and taking it as enlightening seems silly to me...

Except that the part in the book about 5% ideology only took me 5 minutes to read and I was on the toilet in the comfort of my own home. At least he didn't spend too much time talking about that even bigger sham known as the Bible. That definitely would have irritated me.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Saturday, 5 March 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

true that. does anybody have a good source for wu tang animated gifs?

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 01:33 (twenty years ago)

dude, more than once in this thread i explained that i meant "deep" as in mult-layered, not profound. whether or not you think these layers are thing/made of straw/total bullshit is irrelevant. they are there. end of story.

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 01:53 (twenty years ago)

which is precisely what i meant by "kinda does". that was shorthand for "depends on what you mean by deep, and what you find interesting/meaningful/enlightening"

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 01:55 (twenty years ago)

well, as for the whole 5% stuff, isn't hip-hop unfortunately (or just inevitably) littered with people who spout versions of dubious conspiracy theories, who often trivialize complex issues in the process? even public enemy did this a lot of the time (i say "even" because they are often considered--fairly or unfairly--as the most clear-sighted of politically-oriented hip-hop groups). i think of that nas song from a few years back, the quasi-historical stuff about africa etc.

i don't know whether it's more irritating if the rza et al actually have taken some of the more outlandish ideas that pepper their music to heart, or if they are just sort of dabbling in psuedo-profundity and received "heaviness" (as i'm generally inclined to think) as a kind of half-hustle.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 5 March 2005 05:51 (twenty years ago)

can someone point me jay z lyrics or interviews where he specifically talks about black capitalism and his views/thoughts/personal history with it? or any time he talks about a larger picture (ie talking about people other than himself)(cause "i like money" doesn't really constitute an outlook/position/viewpoint on black capitalism)(not saying jay isn't about more than "i like money", just that i haven't seen any evidence he isn't)

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 06:55 (twenty years ago)

i would think looking for a "larger picture" would be sort of contrary to "black capitalism" (as opposed to say, "black cultural nationalism"). i always connected "black capitalism" with vague ideas about loose rhizomal networks of essentially self-interested micro-capitalists who form temporary alliances and porous groups to cross-promote (is that a pretty good description of the hip-hop industry?)

anyway i'm not taking that bait, and not just because i'm not very interested in "jay-z as black capitalist" theories. i think these externals are sort of a red herring, if you're interested you should go for a close reading of his lyrics.

but if you really need a book, he's got one coming out! there's an excerpt in the liners to "the black album" and true to style it's not particularly philosophical. the excerpt read like an overwritten take on the thompson/mccain school of self-incriminatory noir (it's a page of him agonizing over making some woman friend of his carry drugs for him, if i remember right)

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:10 (twenty years ago)

nah fuck a close reading of his lyrics. that's exactly what i'm talking about: you look at anything close enough and your vision will blur to the point where you'll see anything and everything.

larger picture as in "my community" instead of "me"

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:26 (twenty years ago)

you can slap an academic, intellectual term on just about anything. doesn't make that thing you're labelling any more profound. calling jay z a proponent of black capitalism reminds me of janitors being called building maintenence technicians.
and again, what else does he talk about? what more to him is there? i'm asking cause i really don't know.

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

you look at anything close enough

well, i'm not sure as to the mechanis of how an interview (or a documentary, or a concert) is any more faitful a document of the artist's "intention".

i am very very leery of examining artist's intentions - hstencil's objection upthread be damned - and would prefer to focus first on their work, esp when there's not the same sort of historical distance and perspective you'd have with say, a book about miles davis or whatever.

so is it telling or not that jay-z's favorite slang for drugs is "work"?

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:37 (twenty years ago)

i guess it's sort of silly to differentiate between interview and work, given that we all love watching the hype cycle.

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:39 (twenty years ago)

if you set out looking for meaning in something, you'll probably find it, whether it's truly there or not. this has little to nothing to do with intentions (i know i said stuff about "premeditated" before). can jay write or speak about black capitalism (or any other similar topic. something that takes in sources other than himself, his life) in a meaningful way? or does it take someone else doing a close reading of his words in order for those thoughts to appear?

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:43 (twenty years ago)

i dunno, this all seems like another instance of anti-rockism (yes I went there!) attempting to err the ways of the past critics/thinkers, but in the process swinging the pendulum too far the other way. "stuff that is set out to be meaningful and deep, really isn't. stuff that has no such wankery behind it, *that's* the stuff that actually is deep and significant"

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:46 (twenty years ago)

you can slap an academic, intellectual term on just about anything. doesn't make that thing you're labelling any more profound. calling jay z a proponent of black capitalism reminds me of janitors being called building maintenence technicians

haha come on now that's facile silly.

yes i agree it's weird to call them "building maintenance technicians" but only because it's tough to show that there's any "technique" to mopping a floor that the layperson doesn't possess. (part of my job is mopping a floor, i received no training in that field, i hesitate to call myself a technician)

anyway i'm not sure how the critique of intellectual language plays into this.

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:46 (twenty years ago)

let's turn it around: does it take the rza doing a close reading of the wu-tang's lyrics for the significance to appear?

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:47 (twenty years ago)

because it sounds like that makes up at least a chapter of his book.

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:47 (twenty years ago)

i would say "yes", put work into a text and the text will reward you with dividends. i do think you have to put the right kind of work into a text.

slapping academic names on stuff to sound smart probably won't help you understand a text, you're right about that. i think wasting too much time learning background info about a text probably won't help either (you just need "basic competency", i know what kung fu movies are about, what gangster movies are about, who's ironman and what's a "seed" and a "sun" and "an earth", in general so i don't really feel i need the rza's book)

trying to watch how the metre and storytelling and (especially!) the wordplay works in jay-z or wu-tang track is probably the best way to go. since i'm not really a good enough rapper to come up with great wordplay on my own (humorous understatement alert) i don't really feel like i've read too much into jay-z when i detect it there.

i can't tell you about jay-z's "black capitalist philosophy" cause i don't think it's really there

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:54 (twenty years ago)

cause with both (jay z and black capitalism; intellectual lang), things are being intellectualized that weren't intellectual to start with. and that's fine! not everything needs to be intellectual. in fact, i'd wouldn't mind if most everything wasn't.
that's what i was getting at when i said it seems that arguing that jay is just as deep shows that the arguer values deepness. if you need to intellectualize something to prove that it has merit, than it shows you place value on being intellectual (intellectual != intelligent). i don't think jay or anyone else needs to be intellectual in order to be intelligent.

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 07:56 (twenty years ago)

let's turn it around: does it take the rza doing a close reading of the wu-tang's lyrics for the significance to appear?

didn't you and others go on about how obvious wu's references were, and how could anyone learn anything from the book that they didn't know already?!
anyway, no it doesn't. the lyrics section is more of a "see? remember that shit about ironman you about? you know, in the 200 pages that weren't notes on our lyrics....i told that's what ghost is talking about there".

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:00 (twenty years ago)

trying to watch how the metre and storytelling and (especially!) the wordplay works in jay-z or wu-tang track is probably the best way to go. since i'm not really a good enough rapper to come up with great wordplay on my own (humorous understatement alert) i don't really feel like i've read too much into jay-z when i detect it there.

okay, so you've figured out how it works. what then? are you then able to create raps like jay's or ghost's? i doubt it. (not saying this is what you're arguing, just like, what exactly is the point of a close reading? what do you gain from analysis?)(i wish there was a way to type a question so it *doesn't* sound rhetorical)

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:06 (twenty years ago)

when i say jay-z traffics in "magical-realist noir where temporality is completely suspended" i don't think i'm making it up.

he really does have this obsession with cause-and-effect that runs through all of his songs, it's just how he tells stories and how he relates meaning (just like the wu do with metaphor and free association).

check a song like "coming of age". he and memphis bleek trade off verses narrating an imaginary confrontation. as they move through their verses they move forward in time through the confrontation (jay jumps out of his car, bleek says hi, jay gets suspicious, they hug, etc) - the interesting thing is that in each verse instead of moving linearly forward they start waaay back in the past and narrate a string of historical events that moves up to the present moment (like in the 2nd verse, instead of examining the present, bleek examines the weeks of drugs, uncertainty and hanging out with the wrong crowd that has led up to his present mindstate, only finishing with "hey jay, what's up?")

he may not use words like "temporality" but neither would writers like borges or marquez or mutis, who uses the same techniques in their stories (except admittedly on a much much grander scale), it doesn't mean the technique isn't there, or it isn't interesting to study it.

more relevantly you could look at how someone like tarantino uses these techniques. i'm not sure why you'd give him the pass on "artistry" but not jay-z, solely because he mentions the french new wave in his interviews but jay-z doesn't. remember, jay-z is interviewing for a different audience than tarantino!

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:07 (twenty years ago)

whoa, i never said i wouldn't give jay z a pass! here jay, it's yours. rock that shit. it seems again like i'm saying one thing, and you're extrapolating from there to a position that i would not argue with.
i do take your point about technique being there whether the artist (or anyone else) labels it as such or not.

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:13 (twenty years ago)

whoops remove the "with" and the end of that sentence.

()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:15 (twenty years ago)

this is an xpost so i hope it's not super-redunant, but i typed it so i'll post it.

the point of a close reading, i think, is to try to understand *what* exactly makes a text compelling. i don't mean you have to listen to something and then rephrase what just happened in academic language. but when i'm not sure what others are hearing in something that i don't think is all that great, usually i just listen closely, pay attention and try to reconstruct why the audience is enjoying it.

ask any high school student why he likes tupac and he'll say "he tells good stories!". they may not have the language to explain what a good story is the way an english teacher might but i don't think it's crazy to assume that they're hearing the same qualities instinctively.

(don't quiz me too closely on that assertion cause i don't really listen to tupac so i couldn't explain his storytelling skills)

vahid (vahid), Saturday, 5 March 2005 08:17 (twenty years ago)

ask any high school student why he likes tupac and he'll say "he tells good stories!".

are you sure this is what they'd say? I'm not.

the interesting thing about 5%ers isn't their beliefs, at all. It is interesting (to me, maybe not to anybody else) how 5% philosophy evolved as a social movement, and how something so obscure (basically a very small New York-based movement) now gets heard by people around the world thanks to, you guessed it, hip-hop. I'm sorry, that's just interesting to me! I can't really explain why, but there it is.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 5 March 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

well, the five-percenters did originate during the 60s in New York, but they were inspired by teachings from the Nation of Islam

Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Saturday, 5 March 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

yeah, I know that. I dunno, I'm just interested in extremely marginal social movements (perhaps even "cults") in general.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 5 March 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

oops, try "U Don't Know":

Turn my music high, high, high, high-er
{*"You don't know.. what you're doing, doing, doing, doing.."*}
Sure I do..

I'm from the streets where the
hood could swallow a man, bullets'll follow a man
There's so much coke that you could run the slalom
And cops comb the shit top to bottom
They say that we are prone to violence, but it's home sweet home
Where personalities clash and chrome meets chrome
The coke prices up and down like it's Wall Street homes
But this is worse than the Dow Jones your brains are now blown
all over that brown Brougham, one slip you are now gone
Welcome to hell where you are welcome to sell
But when them shells come you better return 'em
All scars we earn 'em, all cars we learn 'em like the back of our hand
We watch for cops hoppin out the back of van
Wear a G on my chest, I don't need Dapper Dan
This ain't a sewn outfit homes, homes is about it
Was clappin them flamers before I became famous
For playin me y'all shall forever remain nameless
I am Hov'

Sure I do, I tell you the difference between me and them
They tryin to get they ones, I'm tryin to get them M's
One million, two million, three million, four
In just five years, forty million more
You are now lookin at the forty million boy
I'm rapin Def Jam 'til I'm the hundred million man
R., O., C.

{*"You don't know.. what you're doing, doing, doing, doing.."*}
That's where you're wrong

I came into this motherfucker a hundred grand strong
Nine to be exact, from grindin G-packs
Put this shit in motion ain't no rewindin me back
Could make 40 off a brick but one rhyme could beat that
And if somebody woulda told 'em that Hov' would sell clothin
Heh, not in this lifetime, wasn't in my right mind
That's another difference that's between me and them
Heh, I'm smarten up, open the market up
One million, two million, three million, four
In eighteen months, eighty million more
Now add that number up with the one I said before
You are now lookin at one smart black boy
Momma ain't raised no fool
Put me anywhere on God's green earth, I'll triple my worth
Motherfucker - I, will, not, lose

{*"You don't know.. what you're doing, doing, doing, doing.."*}
Put somethin on it

I sell ice in the winter, I sell fire in hell
I am a hustler baby, I'll sell water to a well
I was born to get cake, move on and switch states
Cop the Coupe with the roof gone and switch plates
Was born to dictate, never follow orders
Dickface, get your shit straight, fucka this is Big Jay
I.. hahahaha..

{*"You don't know.. what you're doing, doing, doing, doing.."*}
.. will, not, lose, ever.. FUCKA!

Shmool McShmool (shmuel), Saturday, 5 March 2005 22:32 (twenty years ago)

sorry to derail the thread somewhat,but can anyone explain the "raping def jam" line in u dont know?
isnt he ceo of def jam now?
what was he talking about then?

robin (robin), Sunday, 6 March 2005 06:00 (twenty years ago)

that was almost four years before he became head of def jam. he's using rape in the classical sense of "pillage", saying that he's pillaging def jam, by stealing their sales and fans (through his offer of superior product)

vahid (vahid), Sunday, 6 March 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

Having trained as a shaolin for four INTENSE years I think I can say authoritatively that the Wu's version is a watered down sellout intended for mass consumption. They clearly don't understand the first thing about the eightfold path. The Third Noble Truth is that individuality must be OVERCOME! In all their marketing I don't see any overcoming of individuality -- exactly the opposite in fact!

Method Man's doped-up ass would NEVER have the self-discipline to be a true master of the eternal spirit!

Satori4Life -- I'm out!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 6 March 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

p.s. if you look closely he's holding a pred ship:

http://www.crystalcavern.com/media/indian-buddha.jpg

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 6 March 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

fuck, this a beast of a thread... bits of it reminded me of this site:
http://www.speakeasy.org/~adbrown/boc.html
it breaks down the references behind boards of canada's "geogaddi" record. is it interesting? sure. does it make the music better? dunno, but it's fun to read about.
WHY DO YOU HATE FUN?????????

eman (eman), Monday, 7 March 2005 04:54 (twenty years ago)

Sterling rulez.

deej., Monday, 7 March 2005 08:00 (twenty years ago)

OTM, this is already 36 x better than the pred ship thread!

latebloomer: correspondingly more exaggerated mixing is a scarifying error. (lat, Monday, 7 March 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

RZA was on today's Fresh Air...

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13

good interview

Stormy Davis (diamond), Monday, 7 March 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...
There was a pretty solid review of the book on Stylus Magazine today. He writes at the end how it makes you want to hear their early work, which it does.

earinfections (Nick Twisp), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

this book is as great as advertised on this thread!

Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 29 April 2005 03:53 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...
RZA speaks at San Francisco's Commonwealth Club: "These were two opposites, and they really pulled together in a powerful way," added Gloria Yamato, 52. "There's hope in the world when RZA can appear at the public library."

kyle (akmonday), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

ten months pass...
http://turntablelab.com/vinyl/217/906/13893.html

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 23 June 2006 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

Nice.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 23 June 2006 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

I was just thinking last night how criminal it is that this book lacks an index.

Lukas (lukas), Friday, 23 June 2006 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee39/samgezee/wu.jpg

carne asada, Thursday, 13 September 2007 12:34 (eighteen years ago)

three years pass...

Anyone read "Tao of Wu," the followup to "the Wu-Tang Manual"? I've been reading that, and it's quite good! It's a cross between an autobiography and an insight into the influences behind Wu-Tang. Highly recommended, even more than "the Wu-Tang Manual," in my opinion.

Lazarus Niles-Burnham (res), Saturday, 11 December 2010 01:15 (fifteen years ago)

five years pass...

Please, please, please

Explain to me why RZA having other names like "Bobby Digital", etc., makes him such a diverse talent.

I guess my being "Solana Surfmastaz" and "Solana II" makes me an artist, too.

Why don't you STOP TYPING, seriously.

― Solana II - The Return, Thursday, March 3, 2005 7:33 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is it possible this was the first incarnation of Raccoon Tanuk

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 21:44 (nine years ago)

three years pass...

Having trained as a shaolin for four INTENSE years I think I can say authoritatively that the Wu's version is a watered down sellout intended for mass consumption. They clearly don't understand the first thing about the eightfold path. The Third Noble Truth is that individuality must be OVERCOME! In all their marketing I don't see any overcoming of individuality -- exactly the opposite in fact!
Method Man's doped-up ass would NEVER have the self-discipline to be a true master of the eternal spirit!

Satori4Life -- I'm out!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, March 6, 2005 5:33 PM bookmarkflaglink

p.s. if you look closely he's holding a pred ship:

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, March 6, 2005 5:51 PM bookmarkflaglink

Got your butt drank (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 01:07 (six years ago)


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