Madonna: Classic Or Dud

"When I think of who my opponents are, I don't conjure up a party or a class so much as a sensibility. "They" - the enemy - are people whose souls are cold and whose bullet-point priorities close the window on imagination and genuine freedom of thought while increasing their own claims to ethical superiority. A great many of them are in the government, but they also find employment in newspapers and the corridors of academe. It's hard to pick them out on sight so you have to learn to spot them by their responses to the things around them.

One technique I use is to ask them what they think about Madonna . If they think she's sexy, they're unlikely to be real human beings. Ditto if they think she's "really evolved as an artist" or that she's a "really inspiring role model" - Patricia Hewitt would probably say that, or Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. No, the only proper responses are indifference or disdain, both of which qualify you, in my Thatcherite definition, as "one of us". I don't know much about Auberon Waugh's taste in music, but I doubt that he would have disappointed me in this matter.

(from http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121863,00.html )

Up until the mature, angliophile Madonna, obviously Classic. Now? Enough already.

N.

Though Guy Fucking Ritchie certainly does a lot to ruin it.

So what? she changed her haircut.. Big deal.

Typical.

Absolute stone-cold *classic*, at least til she hooked up with the comedy cockney.

Burning Up should be covered by Britney Spears.

On Madonna: Classic. Finest song about a blow job ever.

As far as Madonna is concerned, the slew of fantastic singles she put out in the eighties and early nineties surely assures classic status, even if her last album did smell like a pile of dead dogs.

2. I am a tad suspicious of that view, though - it goes rather easy on the 80s work. There are a few 80s-Madonna tracks I really am very fond of: 'Papa Don't Preach', and, well... a few others. But I suspect there's a lot of waff filler, too, and that nostalgia is much in play here. Mind you, I always found most of the Like A Prayer LP excellent.

3. Nicole is right: intelligent and sensitive chap though Nick D is, he shouldn't hitch his colours - or anything much else - to Charlotte Raven's mast. The only thing worse than what Raven polemicizes against in that segment is the gal and her views themselves. She is constantly sounding off embarrassingly about things she knows nothing of, and (unlike us) getting paid loads for the privilege. There may be some truth in what ND quoted from her, but there's probably some idiocy and Burchillesque perversity too. And when she says 'Don't trust people who say Madonna's sexy' - well. That depends. I don't like the adjective one bit, and I wouldn't apply it to Madonna now, but if you held a bazooka to my head and made me apply it to anyone, it might have to be mid-80s Madonna.

Oh, Edward? "Burning Up" is Amazingly Brilliant. You are not alone.

"Don't Tell Me" comes across as being just as forced as "Music", I will admit. However, there's something about the way that song is written which also makes it sound more natural. (My guess is that the backing music supports the melody rather than distracts from it, although the unchartiable part of me wants to give "Music" bonus points for trying to keep me from noticing that Madonna didn't seem to come up with a tune for it.)

My general point was that I'm just bored stiff with talk about Madonna. The British media and associated chatterers just go on and on about her, her iconic status, her latest fucking hairstyle. I know this has been going on for years, ever since broadsheet writers and cultural studies lecturers latched onto her, but it seems to have got worse since she came over here.

And it makes me feel old to know that most teenagers are probably wondering what on earth all the fuss is about. Sorry, appealing to the opinions of imaginary teenagers is stupid thing to do.

I don't dislike her. I don't even care about Guy Ritchie. I just think most of the talk about her these days is regurgative rather springing from any real interest in 'Tell Me' or her latest haircut.

Like I, and almost everyone else here seems to say, 80s Madonna - classic. Since then, zzzzzz.....

1. I've always liked Terry Wogan - but god, he was lame when he interviewed Madonna.

2. Her accent - the cod-Brit one she adopted from late 80s on (?): dud.

3. What a load of piffle re. 'We all love her cos she lives in England now'. But that's probably been covered above.

4. The music seemed to get better over the years. I was so struck when 'Who's That Girl?' came on. I hadn't heard it in AGES, had always known I liked it, and it still sounded good. Some (to my ears) didn't: don't care for 'Vogue' much.

4. But slightly larger (though still terribly 'subjective') point: I was surprised at how bad the early stuff seemed. 'Holiday', 'Lucky Star', 'Like A Virgin': yes, they still have the predictable 80s nostalgia value. BUT even as I kind of enjoy that, I seem to hear a naffness, a tackiness in them. In fact one virtue of this prog was that I seemed to see the early stuff as though for the first time, as a kid. It reminded me of seeing early Madonna not as a loveable 80- retro icon of our childhood, but as The Big New Pop Star c. 1984. How did she seem, that way? Arrogant - self-satisfied - unsubtle - overrated - sinister - smug. 'Like A Virgin' felt crass and brazen. I'd never heard it sound so BAD in 15 years or more.

So in a way, one thing it made me feel was a resemblance (from my POV) between early Madonna and today's chart sensations (the people that Tom E likes). It made me feel that she had been just as bad as them. I hadn't felt that for a long time.

That said, her music's actually pretty damn good - "Cherish", "Open Your Heart", probably the entirety of _True Blue_. (Not that this is news to anyone but myself.) She's a crap actress, though, and a crapper singer, especially after her _Evita_ lessons - who the hell taught her how to hold notes? And WHY did they teach her that? And why is she posing with a guitar now like it's a revelation? "Oh, damn, I can play a C chord! This'll impress people!" And I like her better as a brunette. But she survived posing nude with Vanilla Ice, which is a skill I can only hope to emulate.

(And has anyone even mentioned _Ray of Light_ in terms of a quality slice of Ciccone "youth"? Or is there an anti-William Orbit contingent on this list that'll shit on such notions?)

But it's a lose-lose situation, this sort of talk. You praise her like you should, you're just towing the line with the rest of the acolytes. You disapprove, you're a wack playa hata. Just accept her as true American royalty and step away from the doors.

(But, lord, hearing her butcher "Like A Virgin" on that VH1 Girlie Show special was wretched. She turned it into a German cabaret number. A SLOW cabaret number. Lugubrious and woefully self- indulgent, Kubrick-style. "You're so fine, unt you're mine!")

'Ah but thats just the point, she's a weathervane, a survivor and a late 20th century pop icon'. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Klassic

(to be precise, he is not strictly speaking the worst - I find it hard to visualise anyone who could be a worse writer than Imran Ahmed of the NME - but that wouldn't quite have the same universal appeal when it comes to chat-ups)

Only someone who doesn't appreciate pop culture could say Madonna's a dud.

From what I heard Portillo was trying to persuade her to be the star turn at the next Tory election rally. Still she's moved back to LA now, so the sight of her standing next to Bob Monkhouse, Jim Davidson and Ben Elton (prediction) will not come to pass.

You're probably right at that. What the fuck happened to him anyway?

She is also a very crafty song-writer. What is so amazing is how she plays with song structure. Guys if you have ever written songs, you know it takes a musical-genius to write that many styles of song-writing. It is fucking hard. I don't know how she does it but it is her. Yea I know she collaborates but from what I have read, she is always the primary lyricists. She has written very complex songs. Her use of different song structures is nothing short of brilliance. And to make them all hits like she does is pretty astounding.

I am not interested in the petty fighting between fans of different singers that goes on. I am just giving my opinion as a musician. Madonna is the real deal. Even other bands I talk with that aren't into her music give her props for being the real deal. In our circles, we respect Madonna even if we aren't into her music. She is a classic all the way and will go down as one of the top 10 greatest female singer/song-writers of all time. She is a musical genius.

Burning Up
Borderline
Lucky Star
Like a Virgin
Into the Groove

oooo, Burning Up ...

I always made a lyrical connection between "Unlike the others, I'd do anything/I'm not the same, I have no shame/I'm on fire" and "Don't harass me, can't you tell/I'm going home, I'm tired as hell/I'm not the cat I used to be/I got a kid, I'm 33"

my next five

6 Live To Tell
7 Papa Dont Preach
8 Everybody
9 La Isla Bonita
10 Angel

Deeper and Deeper
Sky Fits Heaven
Get Together
Vogue
Borderline

Like A Prayer
Into the Groove
Material Girl
Crazy for You
Live To Tell

And you can dance.

Sky Fits Heaven

what an earworm

Vogue
Who's That Girl
Express Yourself (the single version)
Deeper and Deeper
Live To Tell

lol mine is going to be weird

Ray Of Light
Human Nature
Into The Groove
Sooner Or Later (ya the Sondheim song)
Like A Virgin

I do love Vogue but I like Terre Thaemlitz more
Borderline was always my least favourite of her early indelibles
Like A Prayer is produced like a megamusical and I never personally had space for it
Material Girl is def my #6 that song is amazing
Hung up is #7
Frozen is my favourite of her "lock/key" dichotomy songs (and you can only have one favourite, sorry Open Your Heart)

^ oh and that's "Like A Prayer" (album), I'm just not keen on the production in general. Some great songs lots of great performances tho

Borderline was always my least favourite of her early indelibles

Frozen is probably my very close 6. For whatever reason I’ve always really liked slow Madonna songs a lot, despite my better half saying that she ruined her delivery when she learned to sing for Evita, so I was thinking about Rain, Love Don’t Live Here Anymore and What It Feels Like for a Girl but I don’t like Rain enough, the Take That cover of Love…is better and I got stuck trying to remember if there’s a particular remix of What it Feels Like… that is actually what I love. I think also my love of that one is connected to some dim memory of it being about Britney?

Express Yourself is one of the first music videos I remember watching when I was very young, it’s the lighting/silhouette combo and ofc it’s a banger as well. Fuck, I just remembered Beautiful Stranger but I might have had fatigue from overplay that stops me remembering how much I love it.

holiday
open your heart
burning up
like a prayer
rain

(how on earth am i the first person today to say holiday??!?!?!?)

Burning Up
Lucky Star
Holiday
Crazy for You
Into the Groove

Nothing against the later stuff, but forced to pick only five, it just ended up being all '80s hits.

Crazy for You
Live to Tell
Open Your Heart
Like a Prayer [7" single version]
Express Yourself [video version]

Borderline
Crazy For You
Open Your Heart
Til Death Do Us Part
Deeper and Deeper

Am I the only one who prefers the album version of "Express Yourself" ? Much more dynamic than the single version imo.

Top of my head, probably missing something:

Holiday
Borderline
La Isla Bonita
Live to Tell
Cherish

nah, i prefer the 7” single version

(xpost)

I gather that I'm weirdly agnostic among Madonna fans when it comes to album vs. single versions, at least regarding the 80s stuff. I have the albums, I have The Immaculate Collection--it's all good.

Dear Jessie
Oh Father
Dress You Up
Die Another Day
White Heat

mmm yeah Dress You Up is grear!

The backing vocals right as the chorus comes in

from your head down to your toe-ooh-wows

i don't know if it's just because of the video, but the album version of Express Yourself always felt too cute and not powerful enough.

yeah kinda weaksauce imo

Am I the only one who prefers the album version of "Express Yourself" ? Much more dynamic than the single version imo.

― LeRooLeRoo,

hi!

Express Yourself
Into the Groove
Frozen (mostly the video tbh)
Borderline
Holiday

I saw the Blond Ambition tour and had a fucking blast but I never, ever listen to Madonna anymore.

Of stuff that no-one else has yet mentioned, I'd include one of the stately ballads: "Something to Remember", "This Used To Be my Playground" or "You'll See".

Lucky Star
Holiday
Into the Groove
Dress You Up
Material Girl

Deeper and Deeper
Skin
Don't Tell Me
Rain
Beautiful Stranger

"Beautiful Stranger"
"Open Your Heart"
"Ray of Light"
"Holiday"
"Miles Away"

One quirky one.

Holiday
Into the Groove
White Heat
Erotica (Masters at Work Bass Hit Dub)
La Isla Bonita (Sepp Edit)

Happy to see the Deeper & Deeper love here, love that one so much

I'm not sure I am familiar with any 7" single versions. Are they radically different, or just radio edits?

Some of them, like "Express Yourself", "Keep It Together", and "Celebration" are very different. Most of them are just radio edits.

Feel like back in the 1990s or early 2000s, Justify My Love would have enjoyed a lot more action in this thought exercise

Live To Tell
Bad Girl
Lucky Star
Physical Attraction
Open Your Heart

Vogue
Take a Bow
Substitute for Love
Ray of Light
Don't Tell Me

into the groove
holiday
crazy for you
drowned world/substitute for love
god control

I LOATHE the Shep Pettibone remix of Express Yourself. Always have, always will.

.. which one? :)

Vogue
Open your heart 12”
Justify your love (William orbit mix)
Deeper and deeper
Secret garden

The justify your love beast within mix by Lenny Kravitz would also be a fun vote

Brainwasher said this once and I’m fully on board .. an Andre Betts helmed album in the spirit of “waiting” “secret garden” “where life begins” would have been a fire erótica sequel

He didn’t phrase it that way but yea

began today by watching all three of her lengthy Jonathan Ross interviews, from '92, '03 and '15. the 2003 one is my favourite. American Life is my second favourite album of hers anyway for many reasons but on a purely personal level it kinda annoys me (which in turn fascinates me) that i just don't remember that period at all from the time (honestly i think its songs not being on v/a hits compilations contributed to this, but this is also the era where every major album sleeve is burned into my brain from seemingly always being in tesco/asda/hmv/smiths/woolies). I went from having favourites on GHV2 to Hung Up being released and and feeling that Madonna was the biggest thing in pop. That was part of the buzz when I eventually heard AL for the first time (by then contextualised as 'major misstep') and found it to be dazzling and puzzling but hidden from me in plain sight. The thought of an American Life 2 or something like it would intrigue me much more than the Confessions 2 she's apparently making with Price.

surely AL2 = The Mirwais album ?

Madame X? It doesn't scratch a similar sort of itch.

Funnily, Mirwais' version of Miss You *was* something I knew in 2003, because I had it on this compilation