new york times on why sage francis and underground hip hop is boring, devoid of fun or enjoyment

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February 16, 2005

MUSIC REVIEW | SAGE FRANCIS

What's Left After Bling, Boasts and Odd Beats

By KELEFA SANNEH

hy is it so hard to be an underground hip-hop hero? Perhaps because the mainstream hip-hop heroes have already claimed so much of the best turf for themselves.

"I like 99 rappers, but Jay-Z ain't one," Sage Francis declared at the Bowery Ballroom on Wednesday night. And to prove it, he steered clear of all things Jay-Z-ish. That meant no slick outfits (the rapper and his band all wore black jumpsuits), no jewelry, no high-life boasts or low-life threats. But it also meant no impossibly smooth stanzas filled with hidden jokes and counterrhythms; no mesmerizing stories or irresistible refrains; no state-of-the-art beats or propulsive club tracks.

What was left? Lots of bitter sarcasm, for starters. Mr. Francis, a white rapper, has built his career on a foundation of rage and disillusionment: when he said, "This song is about how awesome guns are," listeners knew he meant the opposite; when he began the show with a verse that started, "I used to think that rappers had it figured out," everyone knew that he was about to explain how wrong he'd been.

Mr. Francis has spent the past few years amassing a cult of fans who prefer the overwrought to the overproduced. He delivers his heavy-handed barrages with the single-minded fury of a punk rock singer, which might be one reason that his new album, "A Healthy Distrust," was released by the punk label Epitaph. (To get a taste of the fractious, obsessive world of Sage Francis fans, visit the energetic Internet forum, inhalerproductions.com/forum/index.php, that he calls home.

The album has lots of densely written rhymes and even a tune or two (the indie-rock singer Will Oldham contributes a chorus), but it's still no fun to listen to: there are some clever couplets ("In a world where the girls got retro tattoos/ All I've got is a gut and Velcro black shoes"), but his harangues don't give them room to breathe.

At Bowery Ballroom, Mr. Francis's backup rappers (two women, one man) sometimes added some playful energy by pairing off, boy-against-girl, trading gruff lines for sing-song ones. But the most ambitious new songs sounded even worse live. A drawn-out version of "Sun Vs Moon" only highlighted the ill-considered lyrics: "God's not a woman/ He's a big white guy in the sky/ And the deserts are reflections of his eyes." (And he wonders why some rappers stick with crime and clubs?)

This was a night overrun with words, so perhaps it's no surprise that the highlight was all words: an a cappella version of "Slow Down Gandhi," his bitter but ambivalent protest poem. Whispering and shouting and singing and talking, Mr. Francis lambasted both warmongers and pacifists, getting closer and closer to his perverse goal: he's a rapper who dreams of being a lecturer.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

To be fair that doesn't really say "underground hip hop is boring, devoid of fun or enjoyment" at all

― DJ Mencap0))), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

" but it's still no fun to listen to"

"mainstream hip-hop heroes have already claimed so much of the best turf for themselves"

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

he does a good job of making me never ever want to hear sage francis. ever.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

I was about to say! Kelefa suffered so I might not.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:40 (twenty years ago)

Apart from that extremely vague opening gambit it's entirely about Sage Francis, as seems fitting for a live review of him

― DJ Mencap0))), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

Jeeezo beezo.

Is this the guy that had "beef" with Paul Barman?

at least Barman had a sense of humor.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

He makes me want to pull the CD out again. Most of the things Sanneh sets up in his opener as being what's good about hip-hop (slick outfits, jewelry, high-life boasts, low-life threats, state-of-the-art beats, propulsive club tracks) are exactly the things that make mainstream hip-hop such a migraine-inducing waste of time.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:46 (twenty years ago)

I think the "impossibly smooth stanzas filled with hidden jokes and counterrhythms; no mesmerizing stories or irresistible refrains; no state-of-the-art beats or propulsive club tracks" were supposed to be the mainstream positives, not the jewelry and threats. Reread the paragraph, he was stating that mainstream hip-hop may lack these things (which may be negative), but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

― mike h. (mike h.), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

Man, I hate state-of-the-art beats and propulsive club tracks.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Okay, NOW you're making my head hurt. (xpost)

Back in 2001 I described The Blueprint as an example of an album featuring a guy wearing mirrorshades walking down a hall of mirrors looking at himself in every mirror he could find and thinking "Damn I'm great!" And that's why Jay-Z rules and why in comparison based on the above description Sage Francis sounds like pain incarnate.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

What Mike H. & Daniel said - in what kind of a candy-filled magical-pixie land do you live in, Phil, where "state-of-the-art beats" in hip-hop are a bad thing? "Fuck Jazze Pha & Timbaland - I want my shit stale and crusty like the junk between my toes! One!"

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 17 February 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

And, really, as long as it interests & entertains me, folks can lecture on social inequities or their bling-bling or what-the-fuck ever, and anyone that thinks there's an actual correlation between subject matter and the quality of the rap (flow, wit, charisma, etc.) needs to go play in traffic.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

phil if you don't like low-life threats i'd avoid sage francis

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

I don't like state-of-the-art beats. The current state of the art, lyrically and sonically, is pretty much shit. I can think of about three Timbaland songs I like, and those are several years old. Also, I hate clubs and the people who populate them.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Beep beep!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

phil really is a rock critic!

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

what 'living the stereotype dream' will phil tackle next? i hate: bathing? wearing anything besides t-shirts/sweatpants? eating anything requiring utensils? women who won't talk to me? women who will talk to me? the outdoors?

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

hahahahaaa go kalefa go. i had to go to a dj spooky "lecture" last night so i am def in the mood for a thread like this...

― f--gg (gcannon), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:17 (twenty years ago)

and i thought jay was the one babylon mc that underground guys liked? (not that i know the first thing about the ins and outs of this stuff)

― f--gg (gcannon), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

i feel like i've read a version of this thread every two weeks since i joined ILM.

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

and yet you keep coming back for more!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

I've never been to a Sage Francis show* but I find his new album a bit overwrought, yes, but entertaining as well. It would be a lot more entertaining if it had some state-of-the-art beats though. Anyhow, Sage Francis has a way with words and I find his raps refreshingly different from anything else in hip-hop.

*) I saw Sole, that was not so good, and Grand Buffet, who should try to be be the white OutKast.

― JoB (JoB), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

i had to go to a dj spooky "lecture" last night

Dare I ask?

Now Mr. Blount -- Phil's a good guy, based on other threads. I don't agree with his take on modern hip-hop at all but that's no reason to go into overkill.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

This show. . . sounds. . . really. . . boring.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Colin OTMFM

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 17 February 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

i agree with Ned and sage francis is a tad melancholy. the other day i read a book while listening to a healthy distrust. you should never be able to do with anything calling itself hip-hop.

― pierre hamilton (the rock n roll nigga), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

that is...the most ill-informed, misguided and unhelpful piece of music criticism i have read in some time. this guy clearly set out with the intention of criticizing the show. the implication seems to be: rappers shouldn't be angry, rappers shouldn't try to say anything meaningful. too many words? wtf?!

"a white guy? no homophobic lyrics? a punk label? clearly this isn't really hip-hop. i demand jewellery!"

― fsharp (fsharp), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:08 (twenty years ago)

Variants of this thread has been a recurring theme on every music discussion group I've participated in since 1991.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

i like sage francis AND jay-z. but they're playing different games and for me they scratcha different itch. at this point, a jay-z show is an arena spectacle, and don't get me wrong it's a good one. a sage francis show, otoh, is a sweatbox mindfuck. i don't know, maybe jay could get up there alone with beats on a discman and singlehandedly destroy the room. but i've seen sage do it--more than once--and it's fucking intense. (full disclosure, sage played a free show for me a while back. so i think he's a swell guy.)

― asl, Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

>Back in 2001 I described The Blueprint as an example of an album featuring a guy wearing mirrorshades walking down a hall of mirrors looking at himself in every mirror he could find and thinking "Damn I'm great!" And that's why Jay-Z rules

In the simplest possible language, Ned (because I'm just a stupid rock fan), please explain why this is a good thing. It sounds awfully Jim Morrison to me. (I have heard The Blueprint - I was inexplicably on Def Jam's promo list for a little while a couple of years ago.)

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

the implication seems to be: rappers shouldn't be angry, rappers shouldn't try to say anything meaningful.

The point is over there. I believe you've missed it.

It sounds awfully Jim Morrison to me

Well there was the one Doors sample. ;-)

To my mind it's a celebration of the self as artwork. Celebrations of the self like any other thing out there can fail miserably as well as succeed, and the success came from a combination of sparkling and varied arrangements from pros and up-and-comers both, Jay-Z's easily commanding performances, and more than a little chutzpah. If the music and performance can't carry it off, then all's dull failure, but if it CAN be carried off, then it's all HOLY FUCK! Compare to a slew of James Brown's best moments, which are self-celebratory to brilliant extremes.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

>Compare to a slew of James Brown's best moments, which are self-celebratory to brilliant extremes.

Only if you're fixating on the lyrics. Because I spend so much time listening to death metal, which is specifically performed and mixed so the lyrics will be inaudible/indecipherable, I usually get annoyed when the words to a song are right up in my face. Thus, when I listen to James Brown, I rarely pay attention to the words. I treat his songs like jazz pieces - I dive into the instrumental interplay.

This is why so much current hip-hop (the stuff I see/hear on MTV, anyway) fails me. It's not just the stupidity of the lyrics, it's also the unsatisfying music. Synth blurts and novelty percussion effects are simply, well, insufficient.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

You just said "chutzpah."

Making sure you're aware.

― David Allen (David Allen), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

http://ilmixor.blogspot.com

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:30 (twenty years ago)

Reference intentional, you goofy fun boys.

Only if you're fixating on the lyrics

I'm notorious for not fixating on lyrics! So when something succeeds as well as it does on that front I'm pretty happy! :-)

Synth blurts and novelty percussion effects are simply, well, insufficient.

And there's opinion, and there we differ and that's all right. Woo! (I mean, it could be argued that blurred guitar riffs and gargled vocals are insufficient to other ears, for instance.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

Isn't it you-know-what-ist to be disappointed that Sage Francis doesn't hit you the way Jay-Z does? Just askin'.

― Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

hey, that ilmixor thing is pretty cool! i hadn't seen that before.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

Dude, Scott! It's the greatest thing in music crit this year (and I'm not kidding!). Sign yourself up for the next round on Monday.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

The point is over there. I believe you've missed it.

but see, i hit the nail on the head. the guy has no idea what it is in a performer like SF that would appeal to someone who loves hip-hop, which - whatever his personal predilictions - makes him an ignorant liability of a music journalist. well, doesn't it?

why yes, yes it does.

― fsharp (fsharp), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

the guy has no idea what it is in a performer like SF that would appeal to someone who loves hip-hop

Nice to see you know Kelefa's writing so well.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

i will own up to my own ignorance there, Ned, but what specifically do you mean?

― fsharp (fsharp), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

Yes, let's all immediately kiss Kelefa's ass and admire his inane opinions because he writes for the New York Times. Nigga please. Holding up Jay-Z as some beacon of hip-hop light and dissing Sage Francis because he's doing something a little more challenging is stupid. Jay-Z is ok, but Sage is damn good, too, just different.

― boogah, Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

x-post -- Let's put it this way, I'd spend a little time searching and reading Kelefa's writings on the Net first. Just saying.

Boogah, I'm not an automatic Kelefa fan -- for instance, his rockism article last year frustrated me on the level of it going over absolutely NO new ground, though I see the argument on a level of getting those concepts over to an audience not necessarily aware of it. So give it a rest.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

where's the challenging bit again?

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

It's challenging to work with Will Oldham.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

when Will Oldham spits out rhymes, sucker MCs go quiet like french mimes

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

You give it a rest, nerd.

Sage Francis's lyrics are more challenging to the status quo, and make you think, a lot more than Jay-Z's "Boy I hope the cops don't find the drugs in my trunk" pop songs.

― boogah, Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

Not take a stance but, it's bullshit to say someone can't criticize a piece of writing without having read anything else by the author.

― David Allen (David Allen), Thursday, 17 February 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

true dat

― boogah, Thursday, 17 February 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 64 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

hahahaha deal

― poortheatre (poortheatre), Friday, 18 February 2005 06:52 (twenty years ago)

who is better martin scorsese or bruce lee???

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Friday, 18 February 2005 06:52 (twenty years ago)

There's nothing wrong with rapping about something beside girls, cash, cars, and cribs, but it's irritating when underground MCs present themselves as *the alternative* in such predictable ways, for example:

1) Using SAT words as though they were signifiers of intelligence
2) Complaining a lot about mainstream rap in their rhymes, especially when coupled with failure to be as tight as the better mainstream rappers
3) General bitterness and lack of ability to have fun (as cited above)

I'm not saying all undie rap does this.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 18 February 2005 07:06 (twenty years ago)

In other words, no, I don't only want to hear songs about bling, goddamnit, but Jay-Z raps better about bling than I've heard almost any other mc rap about almost anything. So I'd rather listen to Jay-Z.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 18 February 2005 07:07 (twenty years ago)

me too.

― poortheatre (poortheatre), Friday, 18 February 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

(apples and oranges. I'd rather listen to Jay but they are going after totally different things)

Not totally different things if the orange is continually and interminably defining itself as not the apple.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

Yeah but see I don't see that really going on in his music much. It is probably one of his underlying motives (it certainly came out during the live performance, apparently) but in the music itself he is more ambiguous.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:31 (twenty years ago)

although it seems that defining himself as "not the apple" isn't the problem, the problem would be defining himself as "in opposition to the apple."

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

it certainly came out during the live performance, apparently

Apparently?

"I like 99 rappers, but Jay-Z ain't one," Sage Francis declared at the Bowery Ballroom on Wednesday night.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

Yeah thats what i was referring to.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:37 (twenty years ago)

And yet again I'd like to point out how much easier it is to get through with misogyny on ILM than rockism. We're willing to say "yes it is a problem but we should attack the attitude without attacking the music" but when it comes to rockism, all bets are off, the dude isnt worth fucking with.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:39 (twenty years ago)

'In response to Francis' comments, Jay-Z asked, "Who?"'

whenever I begin talking about being troubled by misogyny in music, I get the sense people think I'm being corny.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:41 (twenty years ago)

This will change your opinion of Sage forever and ever. Totally fuxxxed up.

Ha, I can't wait to listen to this battle when I get home, it sounds hilarious.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 February 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)

I know I'm much more willing to tolerate rockism from musicians than from critics. The C90: Rockist Songs made a while back was generally filled with awesome stuff. You can think a song like Dead Prez'
Hip-Hop is dumb but still has a good beat. But with criticism, there's nothing to separate from the rockism. And I don't have much tolerance for misogynist music criticism either.

― shmoo mcshmoo, Friday, 18 February 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

"I like 99 rappers, but Jay-Z ain't one," Sage Francis declared at the Bowery Ballroom on Wednesday night.

Yeah, it seems to me the K.Sanneh review was in large part responding to Sage's presentation of himself in re: mainstream hip-hop. Point being that if you're going to talk shit about Jay-Z, in New York City no less, you better bring something along to back it up. It sounds like Sage was the one setting up the comparison, Kelefa just followed it to its logical conclusion. I guess it's understandable that undie hip-hop to some degree defines itself in opposition to the mainstream, but the more interesting stuff to me is the stuff that just doesn't concern itself with the mainstream and follows its own weird paths to wherever.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Gear, I think it's because being antirockist helps to differentiate a critic from his/her near neighbors among critics and in the altworld, hence can be part of one's identity-making, whereas being antimisogyny is at least nominally taken for granted.

To go off-topic for a moment, I've been arguing for a while that antirockism is for teacher's pets, and that "rockism" is a word that needs to be retired. (Not that I think the hoo-hah over the word doesn't raise interesting issues; but rather that the issues would be raised better if people stopped relying on a lazy - or nonexistent - concept.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

*cheers*

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

But wait, what IS rockism?

*is brutally killed*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

I think the rockism thing is an issue most people on ilm are tired of talking about, yet it seems to crop up over and over again.

― Leon the Fatboy (Ex Leon), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

The only Sage Francis track I've heard is "Mullet," one where he's saying that hip-hop back in the day was, for him, an alternative to the dumb pound-pound-pound rock music that dumb white boys in mullets listened to, music that at root was ripped off of black people but now controlled by and sold to whites - whereas now commercial hip-hop is the dumb mullet music that's been ripped-off from black people, controlled by white people, and sold to whites. A mostly stupid argument - he'd be a lousy lecturer - but actually put forth with a lot of feeling and wit. The guy's not bad with words. Also, it was a capella, Sage acting out the drum beats, and it came across more as beatnik poetry than as rap. Anyway, I wouldn't totally dismiss the guy on the basis of that track, but would guess that his interesting insights would be personal, not social (or, if social, about they'd be about how something directly affects the social life in his immediate environs, not about society overall).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

We're willing to say "yes it is a problem but we should attack the attitude without attacking the music" but when it comes to rockism, all bets are off, the dude isnt worth fucking with

This is good too.

― dan. (dan.), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

I think the rockism thing is an issue most people on ilm are tired of talking about, yet it seems to crop up over and over again.

I suspect it's the larger frustration felt at the fact that though many have slain the ill-described beast, it still lives because it can only ever be dealt with individually rather than collectively. ("All your favorite oldies! No rap! Listen to KDULL...")

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

I was being unfair because I'm dismissing him based on the new album, not having heard the earlier stuff. still, the new album is terrible.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

pet-rockism

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 18 February 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

But let's boil this all down to brass tacks -- I activate testicular bravery, I mean, what the fucking FUCK?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Also, pet peeve here, but New York Times as a corporate entity didn't express an opinion about Sage Francis. Kelefah Sanneh did. (Yeah, I know it's not that simple, since obviously the Times thinks Sanneh is worth publishing, but I hate it when people write "The New York Times said" or "The Village Voice raved about" or "Spin gave ______ five stars." It's a way of inflating the importance of what one is about to say, by taking on [in both senses of that phrase] a big organizational opinion rather than a particular nonfamous person's ideas. (I also think people are too glib here in talking about ILM opinions, Pitchfork opinions, and so forth.) (But now I'm even more off-topic.) (And since I'm off-topic I'll say that, in regard to "rockism," the fact that people are tired of a topic doesn't mean they're done with it. Obviously.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

) (I forgot to close one of my parentheses.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

So as a person, how is KELEFA SANNEH? Anyone here ever met him? He seemed to just kind of come out of nowhere and distill ILM for mainstream eyes.

― David Allen (David Allen), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Has Kelefah ever written "OMG WTF U R ALL GAY" anywhere? If not he can hardly be said to have distilled ILM.

Pre-NY Times he reviewed Trick Daddy & Trina for the Voice (he preferred Trick Daddy = proof that he is secretly a r*ckist), reviewed Kodwo Eshun for an intellectual journal that focused on things Pan African. I assume he's been doing this for a while.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

He wrote a great piece on Jay-Z right before the Blueprint came out that was quite wonderful. I can't remember where it was published, but it made a da capo book.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:58 (twenty years ago)

also I like most of the things Frank K has said in this thread and endorse them.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 20:58 (twenty years ago)

I like a lot of the stuff that Kelefa has written for the Times. And I hate everybody.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 18 February 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

I like a lot what jessica hopper says about this, its what I was trying to get at sort of but failed

http://tiny.abstractdynamics.org/archives/005034.html

the sort of thing anyone over 19 regards as cornball, but I think cornball is brave.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

Hold on, that's a ridiculous oversimplification. I will hardly pretend to have figured out everything by the time I was 19, but at 21 I felt RATM (to bring them up again) were pretty damned cornball and I probably would have thought Sage was the same way had I been around that age now. It's not age that determines how you react to this kind of stuff, it's personality and who you are -- we can and do change with time in many ways, but it's never a guarantee, nor should it be an excuse.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

Oh snap! Steve Albini shows up to weigh in on the Teeter vs. Cosloy Mata-war and drops the c-bomb on yrs truly . Perhaps he is still steaming about the time in 1996 we made that joke about him sponsoring a 2K Fun Run for Gay Pets?

dear god please shut up shut up shut up all these internal tee-hees are getting on my nerves.

― donut debonair (donut), Friday, 18 February 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

Ned I think she's aware she's generalizing!

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Friday, 18 February 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

Not the sense I'm getting!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 February 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

"I think cornball is brave" is my new meme, btw

― donut debonair (donut), Saturday, 19 February 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

The phrase sounds like the absolute extreme one can say "i'm not really into the music at all in fact i wouldn't be caught dead listening to it, but it's good that music is being made"

― donut debonair (donut), Saturday, 19 February 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

imagine if sage and lil' bright eyes got together for a duet? those two wordy motherfuckers would have a field day.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 19 February 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

they should do a cover of "Wordy Rappinghood"

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Saturday, 19 February 2005 01:44 (twenty years ago)

You are giving me heart palpitations.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 19 February 2005 07:03 (twenty years ago)

I like this album!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 21 February 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)

I mean, not when he's doing all the "Half-robot soldier from 2150 marching to war" shit, but when he's doing all the weird noisey stuff and he sounds like he's just pissed off the rest of his mid 90s metal band fired him for being fat, that's great.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 21 February 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

Should Hopper big-upping Sage Francis not be surprising given that she's dating Atmosphere?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 21 February 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Shhh, you're giving it away!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 February 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

Should Hopper big-upping Sage Francis not be surprising given that she's dating Atmosphere?

I guess they're a part of the same circle of white boy indie rap but other than that I'm not sure i see a connection. I mean they do diff music namean?

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 21 February 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

Should Hopper big-upping Sage Francis not be surprising given that she's dating Atmosphere?

Wait, both Slug AND Ant? YOW

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

"reviewed Kodwo Eshun for an intellectual journal that focused on things Pan African"

Didn't I read somewhere that Kelefa actually edited/edits a journal on things Pan-African? Or did I make that up? Google time ...

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 02:34 (twenty years ago)

No, sorry, he's an editor at Transition magazine, which is apparently about race and culture. Maybe I did make it up.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 22 February 2005 02:35 (twenty years ago)

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