the lack of sampling in grime...

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...is something i find curious and interesting. i feel like i've heard enough to be confident in the assumption that there seems to be an attitude of deep reluctance to use samples in this music. with Jungle they were obtuse and obvious, but grime being more minimal there seems less scope for this, plus it would be rather cliched. but i could be wrong and there must be some examples out there of grime tracks with big samples. some questions then:

1) are there any big grime tracks that are sample-heavy (whether beats, strings, dialogue, effects or other)?

2) if not what do you think prompted this move away from sampling? can it be linked to the similar shift in hip-hop that saw the Neptunes, Dre and others get #1 hits without building the tracks around familiar samples (what is the earliest example of this again incidentally? i can't remember if this was asked before but have a feeling it was).

3) is this the first self-facilitating genre (either in the British 'underground dance continuum' or more generally) to emerge without this reliance on sampling?

4) is this rejection of sampling in fact the key factor in grime's critical approval and authenticity? an admirable statement? or is it not quite as conscious as all that?

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

ooh good questions.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

1) sample-lite grime: i s'pose "fix up" doesn't count, but "fickle"s piano tinkle is a triple 6 mafia sample, yesno? then there's "dream". and that "gotta get that dough" dialogue sample in "everywhere". sovereign's "random" lyrically interpolates "tipsy", if that qualifies.

2) yeah, rap hasn't been centrally sample-based for, oh, a while now. And when they are, they tend to be fragementary, atomized riffs (bootylicious, breathe) and largely unrecognizable (save for yr noveltyesque "toy soldiers" etc). oh wait, i forgot about kanye. the thread you were thinking of is probably this one: The first hip hop song comprised of zero samples

3) by genre, you mean 'post-90s electronic music', right? anyway, i dunno.

4) gonna have to think about this before i post.

― jermaine, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

i'd leave out Dizzee altogether though, and lyrical references (common device derived from hip-hop)

you still get the odd big sample-hook hip-hop tune - Mobb Deep's Thomas Dolby pilfering 'Got It Twisted' was one of my favourites of last year despite pretty uninspiring rhymes

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

are the grimists on holiday? I've posted this on dissensus as well...

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

Sven, I think the easier answer is that grime evolved out of UK Garage, which was also incredibly sample-lite (except for vocals, but then part of the whole shift from garage to grime was from house/r&b vocals to MCs so I'm not sure that counts so much). UK Garage itself emerged out speed garage which (to spell out the obvious) was a jungalistic take on house. So maybe the lack of a strong sampling aesthetic in grime is one of the primary examples of that increasingly weak thread linking it all the way back to house.

If anything, grime is becoming more sample-based as time goes on, and ironcally a lot of the time it's vocals being sampled again maybe due to the influence of kanye/just blaze.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

that's true, i sort of overlooked the dearth of sampling in 2step and similar there, but with grime having more hip-hop influence you might've figured it would indulge in sampling more (tho hip-hop has moved on from that somewhat as already mentioned).

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

Technically, almost all of the sounds in 2-Step/Garage/Grime are sampled, but only in tiny bits and pieces, and then modified beyond recognition (individual drums, organ stabs, warbles, etc - all of it).

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

Yes, but I think Sven's using "sample" to mean "recognizable snippet of someone elses' music", which is how 90% of the general populace define sampling.

― Tantrum (Tantrum The Cat), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

That's why I said "technically."

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

"Serious Thugs" to thread.

― adam.r.l. (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

popular hip hop, aka the hip hop most grime MCs and producers are likely most familiar with doesnt use samples, plus UKG didnt use samples so theres no inspiration for grime artists to use samples. plus R&B doesnt use samples either. theres a few vocal samples and little soundbites being sampled here and there, but its nowhere near the reliance of hip hop in the early-mid 90s/late 80s.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Popular hip-hop doesn't use samples?

― deej., Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

well im not including kanye west/just blaze... but then again, timbaland uses a fair amount of samples doesnt he? he doesnt always though, the neptunes definitely dont. hmmmm.

the thing is, a lot of current hip hop producers still dont use samples in a lot of their big tunes - timbaland usually secretes his samples amazingly well. its rarely ever recognisable, simply transferred loops.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Neptunes use samples too! "Pass the Courv."

― deej., Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

more of their songs dont use samples though, or if they are 'samples', theyre 'interpolations' - i.e. replayed, not directly sampled from the original records. thats what they did for nelly's hot in herre.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

three weeks pass...

1)sway's "call my name" (feat. wonder) samples "like a prayer"

― jermaine (jnoble), Thursday, 17 March 2005 14:45 (twenty years ago)

i guess it's a 50/50 thing in both hip-hop and grime these days. take the new Ludacris single or that funny track ambrose sent me known dubbed 'Countdown riddim' for it's plundering of the title theme of the word-based TV quiz - the former plays around with it's sampled hook, re-arranging it to the point where it's almost a mess yet still instantly recognisable. the latter is just a straight lift for the MCs to rhyme over from what i can recall but it's maybe not a fair comparison as i'm sure there are grime tracks out there that do twist up their samples just as much (if not there bloody should be)

― Sven Bastard (blueski), Thursday, 17 March 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

well there isn't much mainstream hip hop that "mangles" samples much either. i think it comes from a kind of crate-digging show of respect to the sampled artist, it's like, wyclef actually liked enya, he wasn't taking the piss.

― scg, Thursday, 17 March 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

alot of my favourite sample based grime tunes are the ones that use the "oh boy" template, where the vocal sample becomes part of the narrative, "special girl" and "baby" by davinche especially (does anyone know where this sample is from?).

― scg, Thursday, 17 March 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...

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― DAEREST V1CE MAGAZINE!!!!! (ex machina), Friday, 17 June 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

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