Why are "repetitive" rap grooves considered bad?

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Actually, I ask the question here:

"Rapper's Delight" (full-length version) -- C or D?

But you can answer here instead, if you want.

― xhuxk, Friday, 11 March 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

I don't think most people who say that really mean it. I think mostly they mean they don't like drum machines. Or they sense a lack of dynamics, which is sometimes true.

― Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

A lot (if not most) of those early rap records don't have drum machines, though. Many of them were made with rhythm sections consisting of actual people (and you can tell). Not really sure how they lack dynamics, either; the dynamics happens *within* the groove.

― xhuxk, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

A friend of mine recently complained that there were no "switch ups" in "Get Right."

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:15 (twenty years ago)

i cazalled 'rapper's delight' repetitive on that thread, in the case of the 17min versh. not that i dislike it, i just think 17min is excessive, especially since the rapping doesn't really do much. in iteslf repetition is not a problem. but all records have to end eventually and i think 'rapper's delight' outstays its welcome.

― NR_Q, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

I suspect there is a difference between extreme repetition as an intended effect and extreme repetition as an easy way to avoid expending the effort to think up something new. Damn if I know how to tell the two apart!

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

That's because there is no way for a listener to know artists's intentions, Mark--which is completely fine, because artists' intentions have nothing to do with how good music is anyway. Ever.

― xhuxk, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

bold claim. if a band has the intention of sounding exactly like cast's second album, chances are they'll succeed.

― NR_Q, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

Even in loop-based hip-hop songs, it's interesting how much slight variation usually happens in the beat (dropping parts in and out, switching up the drums/break) that you don't usually notice but keeps your ears from getting tired.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

That's because there is no way for a listener to know artists's intentions, Mark--which is completely fine, because artists' intentions have nothing to do with how good music is anyway. Ever.

-- xhux

I agree completely. Here is a very interesting discusson on the topic.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

Chuck - can't one's perception of the artist's intentions have an effect on whether they like the song?

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

I know lots of people who love Mario because they think he's really in love with whoever he's singing about.

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

If you're saying listeners enjoy being "convinced" by music, djdee, sure, ovbiously. That's a huge part of listening to music (though as I wrote on that long 50 Cent thread, I personally have basically no interest in celebrities' lives per se' myself). Plus our perception of artist intentions is not the same as the actual intentions, right?

Anyway, I actually talk about it more here (among other places, I'm sure, and I don't want this thread to derail, I've talked about this intention crap a zillion times; I'm really interesting in hearing more about the repetition crap on this particular thread and day):

"People who write about music are just bitter that they themselves can't play it."

― xhuxk, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

A lot (if not most) of those early rap records don't have drum machines, though. Many of them were made with rhythm sections consisting of actual people (and you can tell).

Yeah, but I don't think we're talking only about early rap records. Or are we?

Not really sure how they lack dynamics, either; the dynamics happens *within* the groove.

Yeah. When I say "dynamics," I'm talking about variations of volume (sometimes dramatic, sometimes infinitesimal). As Jordan says above, even many loop-based hip-hop records have this. But many don't. Maybe I don't know what you mean by "*within* the groove." As opposed to what?

― Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

yeah, thats what i mean chuck. Back to the repetition thing - i hear it all the time used to disparage any music that the listener doesnt like, no matter what genre. I think they mean they get bored. I like repetition for its own sake. Like DJ Premier beats that fetishize the 2 bar loop. Its nice.

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

What I'm saying is that I hear as much variation in Spoonie Gee songs as in Eric B and Rakim (or whoever) songs (though many hip-hop fans apparently don't -- and actually, Eric B and Rakim might not be the best example; pick your own), despite the way Spoonie tends to latch onto a riff and go with it on and on til the break of dawn; the riff might stay the same, but it allows variations to occur elsewhere. And yeah, though I may not have been clear above, I *was* mainly referring to complaints about alleged repetition in old school rap (as I explain more fully in that Sugarhill thread I initially linked to), though this might apply to more recent stuff, too; I'm not sure.

― xhuxk, Friday, 11 March 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

I think in that case - assuming people who like eric b and rakim do complain about that sort of thing, usually i hear people worship old school even though they don't listen to it - then its probably the length of the song that actually puts them off.

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

I think repetitive rap grooves are good, but even I can see why 15 minute songs with only minute variations can get a little trying for some folks.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

I mean I think the average people who find "Rapper's Delight" to be a bit "repetitive" are probably not going to be huge "Hallogallo" fans or whatever (and if they are well. . .)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

I donno, Hallgallo seems to fetishize the repetition and it works for that reason, like that's its primary motif, but for some reason at the 8 minute mark I start to be really tired of Rappers Delight. It doesn't help that they aren't doing much to interest me at a certain point...I like other long old-school tracks though, so i might not be who chuck is talking about.

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

"Repetitive" is one of those neutral words that can be a compliment or a putdown, depending. If it's repetitive in a good way, it's "hypnotic"; in a bad way, it's "monotonous." And the "good" and "bad" ways are entirely a matter of opinion. Nearly ALL rap music (like most pop music) is repetitive, to a degree; and I think it's more a matter of *what's* being repeated, rather than for how long, that appeals (or doesn't appeal) to people's personal tastes. If I personally like a particular groove, whether it's by James Brown or UFO or Public Image Ltd., I'd happily listen to it for a half-hour if it extends that long. Whereas, if it's repeating something I DON'T like, I certainly won't subject myself to many minutes of it. And what I tend to dislike the most is tracks built upon a single sampled melodic device, like the horns on that current Jennifer Lopez hit. But that's just me.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

the 900 number - 45 king.

best hip hop loop : repeated forever : please.

― mark e (mark e), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:22 (twenty years ago)

most hip hop is repetitive. you are all on crack.

― davidshmavid, Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:48 (twenty years ago)

hip hop songs usually do not have any chord changes which some people(rockist) will interpret as repetive/boring.

― phunktion, Saturday, 12 March 2005 01:17 (twenty years ago)

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