How to inspire critical listening

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ok, here's the deal. my girlfriend listens to music and claims to enjoy it, but i just dont feel she's "getting" it. She's much more interested in lyrics than what's going on musically. I mean, it's 90%lyrics to her, at the very least. Nowhere even near 50-50. Basically, i feel that she's not appreciating the music for an arrangement of notes in rhythm. Both of us would like her to.

the way I see it is, listening to music this way is like trying to enjoy literature by means of the plot alone, and that this is somewhat superficial. To fully enjoy a story, you'll want to look at other elements, like character development, setting, dialogue, tone, etc. Likewise with music - you'll want to listen to all the instruments and be moved by more than just the singing of it. There's the harmony, rhythm, tension/release, timbre, etc that are all different levels of enjoyment.

So, what I'm asking is, how do I help her *feel* these other musical elements? Any suggested listenings? If it helps, she's into country, pop, and blues (more or less) and has an extreme dislike for solos (wanky or not).

or is my approach all wrong?

― bloopydoo, Friday, 11 March 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

diff'rent strokes to move the world

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

your girlfriend is gonna leave you unless you stop being such a dick.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 March 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

Just yell "YOU ARE NOT LISTENING RIGHT" at every available opportunity.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

if she's enjoying it, dancing to it (an assumption on my part) and she extremely dislikes solos, i'd say she's doing pretty damn good as it is.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:39 (twenty years ago)

Both of us would like her to.

― Milo Smiley (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:39 (twenty years ago)

damn, do you also whine like a crybaby if she complains she doesn't like a movie cuz it has no plot? get a friggin life, maroon. she deserves better.

― composer of outlaw music for forty years, Friday, 11 March 2005 18:41 (twenty years ago)

box her ears regularly.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 March 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

Tie her to a streetlight and get people to throw food at her.

― Milo Smiley (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

I'm guilty of placing more emphasis on music, rather than lyrics.

I guess that would explain the average pop/power pop/indie pop fantatic, wouldn't it? For example, I love Teenage Fanclub to death, but on average, their lyrics are pretty banal. And they admit that themselves. Stories about watching football on the telly got in the way of writing lyrics for Songs For Northern Britain.

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

Make her watch My Fair Lady over and over again!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

Apply electric shocks to her while playing a Tori Amos record, then put on Mingus Ah Um or The Present Lover and reward her with a slice of cake. Repeat ad infinitum.

That's what I did!

― Milo Smiley (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

And what are you doing with your second wife?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:56 (twenty years ago)

Both of us would like her to.

― miccio (miccio), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0002B96Q6.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― Milo Smiley (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

Lemme guess - you're a musician, and you feel like you have to impart your knowledge to her. Been there, done that - never again.

Are you in love with this girl? Because if you are, you'll drop the subject and let her be. This is a sure-fire way to fuck up a good relationship.

― Tantrum (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 11 March 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)

somebody said above that she dances. if she does, she obviously appreciates more than just the lyrics. and if she does and you don't, you damn well better learn how, buster

"I'm guilty of placing more emphasis on music, rather than lyrics.
I guess that would explain the average pop/power pop/indie pop fantatic, wouldn't it? For example, I love Teenage Fanclub to death, but on average, their lyrics are pretty banal"

er, so is their music, dude

― composer of outlaw music for forty years, Friday, 11 March 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

Lemme guess - you're a musician, and you feel like you have to impart your knowledge to her. Been there, done that - never again.

Are you in love with this girl? Because if you are, you'll drop the subject and let her be. This is a sure-fire way to fuck up a good relationship.

thank you for the one useful post. advice taken.

― bloopydoo, Friday, 11 March 2005 19:05 (twenty years ago)

You're welcome!

― Tantrum (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 11 March 2005 19:07 (twenty years ago)

i think you should divert your anxiety about your girlfriend's listening skills into other realms. for example, criticize her clothing and hygeine. also, don't call her for several weeks and send text messages such as, "i'm just not comfortable with myself right now."

i think this should do the trick.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

Both of us would like her to.

All I can think is that people must be wilfully missing this.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

Dead Ringers 2: The Musical Years

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

Does it make much difference?

― Honorary Banana Slug (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

anybody who pays attention to ILX should realize the music snobs here are far too self-loathing to assume that significant others should aspire to their glory

― miccio (miccio), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

http://www.deeplistening.org/

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

One of the very first threads I posted was a tongue in cheek enquiry about the difference in my then-girlfriend's music tastes and my own and I got absolutely SLAYED for it.

Still, it is kinda fun from this side of the fence.

― Honorary Banana Slug (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)

The next time you talk about a favorite song, talk about the muscial components of it with her; focus on one or two things that the song does really well or fucks up completely and see if you're getting any positive feedback with respect to the conversation. If not, drop and and never start an instructional music discussion again (but if she starts one, definitely try again).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

OK, if you both want her to enjoy music in the way you do, how did she come to the realisation that she wasn't enjoying music enough, or in the right way?

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:22 (twenty years ago)

why do other people do things that aren't like the way I do them?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:24 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, "the right way" should be in quotes. And read in a sarky tone.

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:27 (twenty years ago)

Men banging on sanctimoniously about feminism and/or sexism: classic or dud?

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:55 (twenty years ago)

seriously, Adam and David A. OTM. What's so INCONCEIVABLE about a scenario where dude is maybe a musician or something, and likes to talk about the way he hears music, and SO responds "huh, that's interesting, I wonder why I don't/can't hear those things, what can you teach about it?" And dude thinks, "hmmm, not sure how to go about this, maybe I'll ask for some help." But of course the thread just ends up being full of sanctimonious BS because, well, this is ILM and that's just the way it is around here.

Anyway, props to Dan Perry and Tantrum for giving reasonable thoughtful replies.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 11 March 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

For what it's worth, I don't think it's sexist, my reaction would be the same if it was a friend rather that a girlfriend. I'm just interested as to how someone comes to realise that they way they enjoy things needs to be altered.

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

Um, obviously if he tells her she's listening "wrong" total dud, but the way i listen to music changes all the time. I wouldn't object to someone saying "what i really like about the music is [x]" and it makes me rethink how I approach a certain song...we're not wed to our initial interpretations.

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

SO responds "huh, that's interesting, I wonder why I don't/can't hear those things, what can you teach about it?"

Er, I'm not too sure where that was described in the original post?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

I mean, that does NOT equal "my girlfriend listens to music and claims to enjoy it, but i just dont feel she's "getting" it."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

Yeah the way to inspire different ways of listening is just to talk about what you hear when you listen to music and then discuss it. It's called having a fucking conversation and it's a far cry from what was being asked in the initial post.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:09 (twenty years ago)

The question does come across as patronizing, but it's interesting how people hear things differently. My girlfriend and I have discussed how I hear music from the bottom up generally and don't notice/can never remember lyrics, while she focuses on the melody and the lyrics with everything else in the background (which seems like the more natural way). Now she's picking up the bass though, so she has to actively change her listening habits a bit.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

there is so much judgmental bullshit loaded into the first post (Ned OTM) that I meant my rejoinder to be perfectly honest and not intended for humorous effect.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 March 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

Its funny how even being exposed to more music changes the way i listen to it (for instance, "discovering" drum n bass after hearing B.O.B.)

― djdee (djdee2005), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but Shakey, "judgmental bullshit" seems to be a virus, sometimes. Who knows how the conversation(s) went between the original poster and his girlfriend? I don't know, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. Guess that makes me a hippie or something.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

< / self-deprecation >

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

well seeing as how the only available account of the conversation is his original post, all we have to go on is bloopydoo's POV (which clearly displays the rather disturbing biases various folks have jumped on). The actual conversation may have gone differently, but bloopydoo's *presentation* of that conversation speaks volumes.

hippy.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 March 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

the very title of this thread is patronizing - as if his girlfriend doesn't already listen critically - and the opening thread just makes whole thing more so. sorry, but the guy got exactly what he deserved.

― composer of outlaw music for forty years, Friday, 11 March 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

You know, I can never decide whether it's spelled "hippy" or "hippie".

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

as if his girlfriend doesn't already listen critically

His being a dick or not doesn't change whether she listens critically or not, especially, if he is to be believed, if she is more lyric driven and he is fascinated by musical structure. My gf is very lyric driven as well so listening to orchestral works or jazz or foreign pop together wasn't originally soemthing she would enjoy.

The irony is that trying to force his girlfriend to listen like he does (or eat or watch or anything) without any sensitivity toward her proclivities is just as dumb as he implies her listening to be.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:42 (twenty years ago)

"You know, I can never decide whether it's spelled "hippy" or "hippie"."

correct spelling is for squares!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 March 2005 22:44 (twenty years ago)

Wasn't there a Pitchfork review that is relevant to this thread?

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

jipi

x-posto

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

correct spelling is for squares!

Ha ha, good, 'cos I think I was the one who spelled it wrong!

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

as if his girlfriend doesn't already listen critically

The (biased) description of how GF listens to music does not fit in with what most people (I) would consider to be a "critical" approach to listening to music.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

Let's set aside the fact that the thread was asking "How do I get her to want to do this?" rather than "How do I get her to do this?" and focus on the douchey aspects in our everlasting quest to become the biggest music douchebags on the Internet.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

Both of us would like her to.
-- bloopydoo (bloopydo...), March 11th, 2005 1:33 PM. (later)
Both of us would like her to.
-- Milo Smiley, March 11th, 2005 1:39 PM. (later)
Both of us would like her to.
-- miccio, March 11th, 2005 1:57 PM. (later)
Both of us would like her to.
All I can think is that people must be wilfully missing this.

-- David A., March 11th, 2005 4:15 PM. (later)

WTF, people? This is seriously the most needlessly antagnonistic thread in months.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

People are trying to live up to that ILE thread, Barry.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)

Is today 'douce' day? I can think of a couple of posters who use this expression frequently but now it's everywhere.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

Has a woman ever come onto ILM and posted 'how can I get my boyfriend to listen to music in the proper way?' Or better still 'how can I get my loser sadsack boyfriend to lighten the fuck up and stop hassling me about liking music in the 'correct manner'?'

― alext (alext), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

We are actually just trying to skew the curve on the assholishness polling, Dan.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

http://www.mindspring.com/~edog/ketchup/diner.gif

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

(ah, lots of people all posted at once, so excuse possible redundancy here, or, um, xpost)

Yeah, and it's an interesting question in that he draws an analogy with literature, and I'm surprised no-one's jumped into that particular breach instead of lazily/unfocussedly casting around for possible strawmen.

I mean, there's a right way and a wrong way to inspire critical engagement with new posters, dammit! (ha ha).

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 11 March 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

Is today 'douce' day?

Hahaha! After I typed that post, I immediately went to the search screen to see how often I'd used the words "douche" and "douchebag" on ILX; most of the hits were in the vadge horror stories thread.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

almost as stupid:

Is it just me or is claiming a film has "no plot" just about the dumbest excuse for a criticism there is?

― composer of outlaw music for forty years, Friday, 11 March 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

Is today 'douce' day? I can think of a couple of posters who use this expression frequently but now it's everywhere.

MG michael I was JUST thinking the same thing!

― Honorary Banana Slug (nordicskilla), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

Is today 'douce' day? I can think of a couple of posters who use this expression frequently but now it's everywhere.

WATCH ONE MOVIE, DOUCHE

― Darius Rucker Lookalike (deangulberry), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna ignore most of the above and assume a genuine question was asked, no matter the phrasing. My first thought was this: is it not possible that, in focussing on the words, it might be because she likes to sing them? And in doing so, is enjoying the melody and rhythm of the vocal line? That sounds like an appreciation of a song to me.

Deep structural listening I would think, requires some level of musicianship and while that is useful, I dont think you can teach someone easily, especially if it doesn't hold their interest.

What would you rather: singing along with impassioned gusto to the Smiths, feeling the lyrics and tune and understanding it that way?

Or sitting there saying "hmm, now you see how Marr's arpgeggioed riff in this bridge brings the tone up with its change in key, and the clarity of the mix."

I know which I'd rather.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:46 (twenty years ago)

Yes, but you're a GIRL! We just don't understand! (apparently)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:49 (twenty years ago)

*hides musical theory books and year 12 sumission on 60s minimalism in the piano stool, whistles idly*

;)

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:53 (twenty years ago)

But yes, I do agree its a bit rich to assume lyrics-only means no appreciation of musical structure.

I've a friend on LJ who, interestingly, posed the exact same question, though he didn't seek to want to change his wife's mind, he just couldnt understand the lyrics love at all. And he isnt even a muso.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)

What would you rather: singing along with impassioned gusto to the Smiths, feeling the lyrics and tune and understanding it that way?

Or sitting there saying "hmm, now you see how Marr's arpgeggioed riff in this bridge brings the tone up with its change in key, and the clarity of the mix."

Isn't this slightly unfair? Or rather, the reverse of his sneering? Some people should be lyricists and some shouldn't. Some people should be singers and others shouldn't. Some people should perform on an instrument and others shouldn't. Some people should compose or arrange and others shouldn't. I fit squarely into the 'shouldn't' category.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 11 March 2005 23:59 (twenty years ago)

Or sitting there saying "hmm, now you see how Marr's arpgeggioed riff in this bridge brings the tone up with its change in key, and the clarity of the mix."

OTM Trayce. I've annoyed many of the women I've dated (and scared off God knows how many prospects while single) with this kind of nonsense. Everyone enjoys music in their own way, and nothing kills a good mood / vibe/ what have you quicker than someone nerdishly standing over you telling you what to listen for. All strawman-like discussions of sexism aside, I think it's an unfortunate tendency of musicians to preach the gospel to everyone they know, and many of them never realize that it's okay to simply like a piece of music.

― Tantrum (Tantrum The Cat), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:02 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I'll admit, my argument was somewhat black and white, but then so's the OPs, I guess that was a reverse sneer.

I wasn't suggesting you need to be a musician/singer/composer of any stripe to enjoy and understand and feel good music, mind you. Or thats not what I meant to imply! :)

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)

Here's a parallel: my partner is a 3D artist. He can, therefore, spot CGI and graphic manipulation at a hundred paces, he's really good at it. Unfortunately, his years of "ooh thats badly done!" at the telly mean I now see it to, and its somewhat spoiled sfx for me.

YMMV, of course. If one does like to pick apart music from a pure theoretical viewpoint, thats great, if you're enjoying it! Horses for courses though.

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:05 (twenty years ago)

that's something that's really hard to change in people. if you're going to keep trying, play her instrumental music. or loveless by my bloody valentine.

― sovietpanda (sovietpanda), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:05 (twenty years ago)

Good suggestion, that. Play some jazz or something.

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:10 (twenty years ago)

Play Ben Webster then make with the horniness.

― Michael White (Hereward), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:13 (twenty years ago)

Or Louis or one of those people who play their instrument like it's a voice.

― Michael White (Hereward), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

Cocteau Twins or the Beach Boys.

― ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:20 (twenty years ago)

i'm not sure i even buy the idea that someone is more "lyric-driven."

i think maybe they just feel more confident talking about lyrics.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:33 (twenty years ago)

i feel like a dick for my earlier post, which continued on from the vague ridicule that the thread had disentegrated into. i actually think it's quite cool if a girlfriend or boyfriend honestly wants to do something so that s/he can share the other's tastes and interests a bit more. i suppose in the long term a lot of this thing should start happening. i agree that it's maybe the phrasing of the thread title and first post that gave me some pause. but ultimately i think it's cool.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

And I was just thinking that I was probably being a dick the other way, you know, swimming against the prevailing current and shit.

Following on from your last post, though, Amateur(ist): I don't know, some people read books for plot only, or character only. Some watch movies just for the acting or the lighting or the CGI. I listen to music with only half an ear on lyrics, if that (unless I'm listening to hip-hop, and even then they're not necessarily uppermost in my thoughts). I'm actually autistic enough that the thing I consistently return to in all of the above is mood or atmosphere, which is difficult to define. My guess is that those people who like lyrics best also love poetry. But I might be very wrong about that.

― David A. (Davant), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:45 (twenty years ago)

i dunno, i think most people are lyric driven. i mean, why else does nearly every popular piece of music (i almost typed song!) in the past, oh 100 years have lyrics?
xpost

― ()ops (()()ps), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:57 (twenty years ago)

Read a few livejournals. They full of teenagers writing the lyrics to Bright Eyes songs or whatever, all the time.

Hell, I'm guilty of the occasional Sebadoh lyric in my blog myself *sheepish look*.

There are bands I like for the quality of their lyric - I put it up there with poetry. Think Throwing Muses, Leonard Cohen, Red House Painters.

I will mull over and love the words. But I still love the music too.

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 12 March 2005 00:59 (twenty years ago)

And hello, hiphop/rap anyone?

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 12 March 2005 01:00 (twenty years ago)

Trayce, the artists you mention (and most hip-hop of course, which is why I mentioned it) feature the words up front. Dylan, too. It would be difficult to imagine getting anything out of them if you didn't pay some attention to the words.

― David A. (Davant), Saturday, 12 March 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i don't think these observations refute my point. not that i did much to bolster my point. and which was less of a point, really, than an opinion.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 12 March 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

I don't know if this is a dumb suggestion, but what about Pet Sounds. That was one of the first albums where I actually *noticed* an arrangement, and instruments I'd never heard before, and layers of sound, etc. Being a lyric fan, it will be accessible to her (hopefully), but it has the kind of layers that might be a good place to start from. If she's interested, then it might be fun. I mean, it seems like from what he said, she wants to learn, but for him to teach her he has to start from where she is, not from where he is. Does that make sense?

― VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 12 March 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

If it's a dumb suggestion, it's the same dumb suggestion I made :) I think the Cocteau Twins may work as well, maybe start with Four Calendar Cafe which has "proper" lyrics then work backwards so that its more obvious that Liz Frazer's voice is just another instrument, and that fact she's gibbering nonsense is totally irrelevant.

― ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 12 March 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

Great minds think alike! (Or, a great mind thinks of it and a lesser great rephrases it.) :)

― VegemiteGrrl (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 13 March 2005 03:15 (twenty years ago)

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